Advice please on a nippy yearling.

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Pandii

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Hello friends,

After very many trials of different techniques and the outcomes oh so temperamental, I ask for advice and ideas.

Last September I bought a draft yearling filly. She is one of the apples of my eye apples and I love her so very much. However, the week of bringing her home I noticed she would give an odd nip every now and again... I gave her a tap on the nose and a sharp 'Ah!'.

Now, I don't believe she experienced too much handling as she wasn't the best with the halter and leading or even petting. But we have overcame those obstacles and are progressing forward each day. And my big bordering 17 hand yearling is my baby girl and she now let's me wrap my body around her front legs. (And shower her in love and cuddles!)

And here comes the backdrop!

We successfully worked through biting and she would not bite me (or try to) for days at a time, at one stage even a week.

Until this month. I've observed it occurs most often when she is frustrated or confused. Yesterday though, I had her out in the yard. And I was cleaning her stable when suddenly she comes in because it started raining, I didn't mind this as I didn't blame her to be fair so I made turned around and made room to let her in. With my back turned to her she took the chance and chomped the back of my arm just above my elbow and went off to her feeder before I could even tell her off.

Back out in the yard now, I was watching her from the shed.

(We live on a farm so we have a crush attached onto this yard. There was a cow in the crush at this time :) )

She walked around, ate, walked around some more and played around the yard. And set her eyes on a new target.

Poor Mrs Moo. My dear Mrs Moo. Chewing her cud in the crush. Her baby behind her in the crush also. Not doing anything wrong. She gets a chomp. I shout 'Ah!' And point my finger. She gets another chomp and another chomp. I ran out, gave an open palm on her bottom and told her off again. After a few more bites and open palms it didn't stop her. So I ignored her and turned my back, she went for another chomp on my arm. *Open palm* and I turned around and stared into her eyes for a while. I sound silly but I just stared at her and shouted a deep 'No!'. After this she watched me and went for another bite on Mrs Moo. I had some kind of episode and chased her around the yard like a mustang with a disrespectful youngin'. For a while too, I'm glad nobody was watching me honestly.

She calmed down after this and I stood in the shed entrance looking at her as she stood in the corner, eyes full of sympathy. I walked out to her and she let me rub my hands all over her, wiggle all around her face and she was standing in place. When I walked away she followed me around.

The result is usually something some people may feel proud of. But having to smack her and make her uncomfortable makes me feel physically sick and if I may admit, abusive and ugly.

The fact is also, though it isn't a good excuse, she doesn't nip. She latches onto your pinched skin with her teeth. Her ears aren't pinned back. She doesn't seem aggravated.

Any help and advice is much appreciated.

I even thought she might be going through her first heat but heat wouldn't last this long, or is she just dominant?

I'm just afraid of ruining our bond and I hate leaving and raising a hand to/on my baby in any way other than positive.

I feel so nasty it's unreal. Just dirty if I make sense. I apologise for a dragging post. And seeming selfish, but I really need reassurance.

Thank you all so very much for your time x I love you all xxx
 
I would worry less about the bond and get into a disciplined routine. This would, at the moment, be where she does not have opportunity to bite. So, into the stable, halter on and tied up before dealing with her. Lead with attention, to where she is to be turned out, and halter off, leave her.

Catch up, halter on, lead with attention, tie up to groom/tack/rug, etc.

I would not put her in this position where she has a free rein to let herself into and out of her stable, making you move out of the way. I would treat her like a horse. Yes, be nice to her, rub her head, scratch her neck, but whilst tied up so she is controlled.

Does she have other company? Work?
 
This is going to sound harsh but good god.

Pandii said:
And my big bordering 17 hand yearling is my baby girl and she now let's me wrap my body around her front legs. (And shower her in love and cuddles!)
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She is a horse. She is not your 'baby girl', she is half a ton of flight animal. You shouldn't be wrapping your body around her front legs (?!?!). She could easily kill you completely accidentally. She is not a human and you shouldn't attribute human emotions to her.

Pandii said:
With my back turned to her she took the chance and chomped the back of my arm just above my elbow and went off to her feeder before I could even tell her off.

Back out in the yard now, I was watching her from the shed.
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She is a horse. From this she has learnt that she can bite you to make you move so that she can get to what she wants; in this case food. You shouldn't have retreated from the yard - if mine tried that with me she'd think her world was about to end.

Pandii said:
But having to smack her and make her uncomfortable makes me feel physically sick and if I may admit, abusive and ugly.
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She is a horse. She is being dangerous. Have you seen how other horses discipline each other? Does she have other horsey company to teach her some bloody manners?

Pandii said:
I'm just afraid of ruining our bond and I hate leaving and raising a hand to/on my baby in any way other than positive.
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Allowing your horse to grow into a spoilt dangerous animal is inherently abusive. She will love you much more if she has firm, consistent, handling and learns where the boundaries are.

As for her bullying of the cow - you shouldn't have put her or the cow in the situation where the cow was restrained and could be bullied by the horse. The horse should be turned out or shut away from other animals while they are restrained.

You need to find a very good trainer who will help you to put boundaries and rules in place. If you continue down this road you will have a dangerous, spoilt, full grown horse in 3 years who has learnt that she can do what she wants as long as she gets the human out of the way.
 
You are a human, she is a horse. You need to keep those boundaries and remember she is not ‘your baby’.

She needs the opportunity to play and socialise. That means other horses, especially young ones. If she is getting unruly a wise old mare will do a better job than any human.

When you interact with her do it in a structured way.

If a 17hh youngster needs a wallop, then it needs a (well timed) wallop otherwise you will end up with a very unruly big horse. But the need to do that will lessen the better the whole environment is.
 
Oopsie daisies. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was letting her have full rule over where she wants to go. I was in the shed and I would usually have a gate across the entrance to stop her from coming in. It was accidental how I didn't put the gate across.

DirectorFury said:
She is a horse. She is not your 'baby girl', she is half a ton of flight animal. You shouldn't be wrapping your body around her front legs (?!?!). She could easily kill you completely accidentally. She is not a human and you shouldn't attribute human emotions to her.
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I also meant that she allows me to do so, as to get us closer to lifting her hooves and a method of desensitisation. I'm sorry for not being clear, I wrote this whole article really rushy and some high arent how I mean them to sound but I have tried my best to explain.

As for Mrs. Moo. It was my fault again and I own up to that. But my point is that she should not bite them anyway. In a hey way crush or across a fence.

And I won't allow her to become a big unruly mare. She won't be.

I know I was the one who asked for advice but I am sorry for frustrating you as I am being misunderstood.
 
Pandii said:
Oopsie daisies. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was letting her have full rule over where she wants to go. I was in the shed and I would usually have a gate across the entrance to stop her from coming in. It was accidental how I didn't put the gate across.



I also meant that she allows me to do so, as to get us closer to lifting her hooves and a method of desensitisation. I'm sorry for not being clear, I wrote this whole article really rushy and some high arent how I mean them to sound but I have tried my best to explain.

As for Mrs. Moo. It was my fault again and I own up to that. But my point is that she should not bite them anyway. In a hey way crush or across a fence.

And I won't allow her to become a big unruly mare. She won't be.

I know I was the one who asked for advice but I am sorry for frustrating you as I am being misunderstood.
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I read this twice and if I am not mistaken you cannot yet lift her feet, wrapping your body around her front legs is part of your plan to allow them to be picked up? She is a big young horse that by now should have the basics in place, be happy to have her feet picked out, be tied up, led when required but be spending most of her time with other horses who will tell her off if she plays too aggressively but equally will usually tolerate some playful biting as part of growing up, if she cannot interact with her own kind she will become more 'bonded' ,I hate that term, with you but is likely to be a high maintenance horse that will be used to getting her own way, it is not being dominant just using her size to dictate her own terms and at the moment she is doing exactly that with you being a willing partner.
 
Pandii said:
If they are in a crush or over a fence*
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I wouldn't have any animal imprisoned with another animal, in this case your known-to-bite yearling loose and free to do as it chooses to another being. Your cow could not move away. It was most unfair of you to put your cow in this situation.

Your OP reminds me of https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/unbelievable-human-stupidity.785910/#post-14203840 in that you are interacting unsafely with your yearling. As someone has said she is not your baby. Train her to pick up her feet without wrapping yourself around her front legs. Stop showering her with love and cuddles and find a consistent way of disciplining her. You
haven't said if she is with other horses but if by chance she isn't living with other equines then find some so that she can learn and grow with others of her species who certainly won't tolerate her nipping.
 
Youngsters are often, and properly, disciplined by the herd when they behave inappropriately. It is hard, although not impossible, for a human to correctly duplicate the horse interaction. It sounds like she badly needs to be turned away with other youngesters in a suitable herd and allowed to learn manners. Exactly as any other young horse learns.
 
Thank you for all of your input but you all have misunderstood my question. I'm sorry if it's how I put my words across but you seem to have got the wrong idea of the whole situation.

I bought her I'm September of last year as a yearling who had only had a halter on and wouldn't let your lead her nor let you have any physical contact with her. So I have wrapping my arms around her legs and tapping her hooves to get her used to the kind of contact before going ahead with the action. I want to introduce her gradually to these basics that she missed out with her previous owner.

'My baby' she lives in our herd. But at present time she is stabled.

I call her 'my baby' because I bought her as a baby (foal) and she is mine.
 
Shay said:
Youngsters are often, and properly, disciplined by the herd when they behave inappropriately. It is hard, although not impossible, for a human to correctly duplicate the horse interaction. It sounds like she badly needs to be turned away with other youngesters in a suitable herd and allowed to learn manners. Exactly as any other young horse learns.
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Thank you Shay, just the reassurance I needed. ❤
 
[QUOTE="Pandii, post: 14205418, member: 142713



And I won't allow her to become a big unruly mare. She won't be.
[/QUOTE]


She already is!
I am afraid that it is perfectly obvious from the whole tone of your post that you don't treat this poor creature like the young horse that she is. The small details such as how she happened to get into the stable with you don't matter. She needs equine company and not to be treated like 'my baby'. You should have got a lunge whip and moved her away from the poor cow (you don't need to hit her with it). What would you have done if she had gone for the calf? Why was the cow in the crush while the horse was loose around it? It sounds like a very badly regulated set-up, frankly.
 
If you bought her in September she should have had the basics installed in September and then been turned away with other youngsters.

You are now back pedalling but your initial post tells anyone with any sense exactly what your relationship is like and how this horse is going to turn out if you dont get some decent help and quickly
 
Why is she currently stabled?

And please don’t whack her on her bum (unless you want to be kicked in the head).
 
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Pandii said:
Thank you for all of your input but you all have misunderstood my question. I'm sorry if it's how I put my words across but you seem to have got the wrong idea of the whole situation.
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I can't see that I misunderstood the bit about her biting your cow. Did you or did you not allow your loose horse to bite your imprisoned cow?

If the rest of her herd is out, and you haven't said so maybe they too are in, then forget stabling and put her out with the herd.
 
Shay said:
Youngsters are often, and properly, disciplined by the herd when they behave inappropriately. It is hard, although not impossible, for a human to correctly duplicate the horse interaction. It sounds like she badly needs to be turned away with other youngesters in a suitable herd and allowed to learn manners. Exactly as any other young horse learns.
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I agree, I spend a lot of time alone in a field when I visit my baby horse (nearly 3 now) from day one not one of that herd (ages 6m to 3) has ever tried to bite or kick me. They learn the manners from the herd and when people go in they are polite and respectful of them and I’ve never had to remind any of them to behave and certainly not had to whack any of them to tell them no.
Op I can read how much you care for the horse and obviously want to get this sorted, I would recommend leaving her out in a herd environment where she will learn the manners she needs.
By all means handle her but separate your feelings of her being ‘your baby’ with the horses behavioural needs, I know it’s nice to have that relationship with a young horse but boundaries and the education while she’s young has to come first for everyone’s sake x
 
Littlebear said:
I agree, I spend a lot of time alone in a field when I visit my baby horse (nearly 3 now) from day one not one of that herd (ages 6m to 3) has ever tried to bite or kick me. They learn the manners from the herd and when people go in they are polite and respectful of them and I’ve never had to remind any of them to behave and certainly not had to whack any of them to tell them no.
Op I can read how much you care for the horse and obviously want to get this sorted, I would recommend leaving her out in a herd environment where she will learn the manners she needs.
By all means handle her but separate your feelings of her being ‘your baby’ with the horses behavioural needs, I know it’s nice to have that relationship with a young horse but boundaries and the education while she’s young has to come first for everyone’s sake x
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Thank you very much for answering :) I understand much better now, I was just wondering if I myself could use any other method than a tap with a stick or an open palm. And I'm sorry if it seems like I'm changing my story, I'm trying to explain as best I can but I'm ending up confusing everyone including myself.

I have said the part with the cow was an accident, it didn't even cross my mind that she would bite her as she has never bit any other animal before. I own up to this and I have learned.

And I didn't just stand there gawking at her biting the cow, I gave her a firm 'Ah' and I moved her away (with a cane, which I also honestly forgot to mention, please don't say I am backtracking again xD) before she done it again and I ran towards her and gave her an open palm on her bum to try and move her.

Also, I said foal in brackets beside baby because I believed someone may comment about my use of human infant terminology instead of equine. And I'm sorry if I confused you x

And it's like a swamp over here with all the downpour so everyone is inside safe and sound.

Although you may disagree with me and you are free to, she does have manners. She just is very mouthy (on her bad weeks) and I am discouraging her, I just wondered what others do and what they advise.


Thank you all for even commenting on my post x
 
AdorableAlice said:
she isn’t a slow grower at 17h and 17 months. I would be very concerned about her joints as well as her upbringing.
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Sorry :D, that wasn't what I meant I know she isnt a slow grower, I was just saying that Irish drafts are known to tend to mature slowly and this doesn't apply to her. Please don't worry, I was also but vet checked and she is tip top! Which I am glad to hear x
 
She’s a horse. You’re a person. We can’t hurt them even half as much as they can hurt us.

You’re in charge. Place her back down the totem pole, firmly.

I don’t think any of us (who have commented as such on this thread) take any pleasure in physically reprimanding any animal. But... She's learning she’s in charge, quickly.

Rooni in a nippy wotsit. I don’t treat him except for ridden work. There was the day he thought it was ok to bite my back because I was doing his haylage. Not ok. And his world ended for the next 5 minutes. He hasn’t done it again since. And yes... All I have to do is stand a certain way and point a finger if the teeth appear and he backs very quickly out my space. Jobs a good un.
 
Leo Walker said:
Shes not 17hands. People are genearally quite bad at assessing height. People who call horses babies are even worse.
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My apologies as I mustn't have been around when you came to measure her. You should have come earlier when the vet came out with the stick.

And you could have held the stick!

And you know what, I may have even took a photo of yourself and my baby :).
 
So if your horse is now two and you are just getting to the stage of 'tapping her hooves', I'd be a bit concerned they might have grown rather long? Has a farrier been able to pick up her hooves to check/trim?
 
It sounds to me like you need an expert in the use of a halter to show you how to halter train her in readiness for ground work when she is older. She needs to learn respect for you and those around her and quickly or she will become a brat. The best bet with a big horse and small person is proper professional help you cannot do this alone It doesnt sound like you are too experienced with youngsters. You always have to be firm but fair you are a teacher not a mummy in this relationship
 
<assuming this horse even exists>
Look, OP, if you're confident that everything is otherwise fine with her training and this was a one off just write it off to experience. Given how your story has been 'corrected' over subsequent posts I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that the situation wasn't communicated accurately in the opening post. If you have still have a question mark over her behaviour or how to best discipline your youngster please, please, get a good local trainer to come out and assess her and how you handle her. They might tell you everything is a-ok, in which case great! Or they might be able to give you strategies that will help in the long run.
If she *is* 17hh and under 2yo I'd be tempted to get the vet out just to check everything is OK with hocks etc.

The way you 'talk' about your youngster does concern me, but only because horses I've known who have been talked about like this have generally grown up to be ill-mannered thugs because they have been mollycoddled through a misplaced sense of love and a lack of understanding what a horse needs to have a happy life. I also feel it's very disrespectful to the horse but that's personal and probably quite odd.
 
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