Advice please re Gastric ulcers??

YasandCrystal

YasandCrystal

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Hi, advice/comments welcomed please. Potted history is we bought a 5 yr old warm blood well bred gelding. Ridden his paces were poor and had clearly been schooled in draw reins - he was very tensed up. Had his back treated and comments were muscles so bunched up, also interesting comment that he had maybe been overgirthed. Temperament he seemed sweet as can be on viewing and I was happy with that being the ‘one that does’ on the ground. 5 stage vetting went beautifully albeit unridden ( I am told that is not uncommon as it’s a long affair). Daughter watched and all went well vet very complimentary. That was some 3 and a half months ago now. New horse arrived home and turned into devil overnight (should have sent it back I hear you cry!). Anyway he’s here so he needs to be properly diagnosed/sorted. He does the following: box walks, cribs, bites, strikes, kicks is hyper sensitive to being groomed or girthed or rugged, bites his sides, makes a roaring noise intermittently when eating, stops eating mid way through feed and has got progressively worse. Also shows other repetitive behaviour when eating pacing back and forth and he hay duks if I give him haylage near his waterer he dunks ever mouthfull! Have stopped rugging him as it became a nightmare and very dangerous. Have now ceased ridden work - daughter rode him 2 weeks ago and he bucked so hard 4 times during time she ended up very sore from the sheer force of the bucks inspite of staying on. He was objecting simply to leg on and bending at walk.That day it took her and the trainer to saddle him and he tail swished throughout the training session. We all agreed something was very wrong and we would step back. I have read so much now about ulcers that I am convinced he may have them. The only niggling doubts are people saying to me that the horse is anxious because I am not acting as a strong leader to him, so he is insecure. I freely admit having been bitten badly by him (he is 17hh by the way)I am very cautious around him and will not put myself into a position to get injured, but I am happy to lead him about and handle him in a headcollar. We even did a semi ’join up’ thing last night where he was following me loose in the manege; so I would say there must be some trust in me by him (he was abused ridden in the past this much I do know, so trust probably doesn’t come easily). I can't stand there and groom him - he hates it and will bare teeth and legs at every brush stroke. The only thing he enjoys is a good wither scratch. Rugging was so hard unless you tied his head with a 6 inch rope he would a) try to bite you and then strike at you with the front leg and if you got that far with the rug the back leg was extremely flexible and could reach the girth area!!!
Would the horse really be so aggressive not only to people but to the chickens, cats, birds, dogs anything alive basically if this were just an anxiety issue? He faces off anything living in his sight range.
I have tried to change his management as much as possible as to that of a horse with ulcers. He is on adlib haylage( I have just now got hay for him as I know this would be better) and he has 2 cereal free feeds a day. He is fed copra and beet pulp (unmollassed) and chaff with U-Guard Plus, 5 x Antepsin tablets and Supercalm herbal supplement as well as a general vit and min supplement. He also gets Fast Fibre and Alfa A Oil in separate buckets at night to ensure he has several available forage stuffs. He is turned out daily although I have no grass to speak of so he is reliant again on adlib haylage. He had a 3 week course of GastroGold which I now read is rubbish! I only started him the Antepsins a few days a go and the first day I made the mistake of giving him 10 tablets in his morning feed instead of splitting them. I also gave him a small feed of pulp and chaff before my friend came over to assist me with some ground work with the horse. He was really calm and good and all the ground work we did went very well. He was happy for me to rub him from his head down to an including his girth area on both sides. To me this shrieked a pointer that yes he may well have ulcers and the antiacids suppressed the acid decreasing his sensitivity. However I have continued for the last 2 days dosing him as I should have 5 tablets twice a day and I have to say this morning he is just so aggressive and sensitive again. I despair, I suppose I wanted a clear indication that ulcers could well be the problem and now I am not so sure. Was it possibly that he has them that bad that the 10 tablets at once had an effect but 5 simply aren’t enough? I don’t want to put him through scoping uneccessarily, but on the other hand my instincts inspite of others comments are that this horse is in pain and not taking the mickey? Most 5 year olds of his breeding are only too willing to work and infact love work. Would a horse who has been in pain for a long time ( I am talking a couple of years) actually instantly drop the aggressiveness if the pain is relieved slightly? Obviously the previous owner has not been honest, but I did get some other history. He has been through a few homes already, so I am hoping that the temperament has been caused by something physical and as it hasn't been addressed he has got worse and worse. Thanks for reading sorry for the novel!
 
sorry also meant to say that I did try an experiment of giving him a couple of bute for a couple of days to eliminate an injury type pain issue. The bute made no difference and the I worried about the effects of bute on ulcers!! Arghh!! He has not been ridden much at all by us (combo of weather and taking it slowly with him) and all the work he has done has been very basic baby stuff of lengthening the muscles and achieving bend from the wither not mid way down the neck. I was doing some lunging with him, but getting the roller on has progressively become harder to the point of like the rugging risky business, so he is lunged without a roller now only 3 times a week. I am actually worrying now that if he is in pain I shouldn't even be lunging him?
 
My first thought is to get shot of him back to his previous owner - was it a private or dealership sale? I would call them and tell them that you want them to take him back - very calmly (perhaps get someone else if you cannot stay calm). Tell them that you want a full refund immediately or you will take them to court and claim his value + expenses (all vet, livery, medication, special feed, supplements).

Get a letter typed up THIS WEEK and send it by recorded to them. Put in the letter that you will give them 7 days to respond or you will take legal action. Follow this through. You are well within your rights to return a horse after this short time. Perhaps advice from a vet might help too and a witness statement from your YO and perhaps a senior instructor itemising his "issues" and stating that they have been visible since arrival.

I believe this type of behaviour is notifiable at point of sale - they have broken the law.

Best of luck and keep us posted please!
 
I do tend to agree you need to try to get your money back - however if for any reason you cannot I would recommend scoping - it is not traumatic for the horse if done properly. It is the only way to really diagnose ulcers and you need to know where they are if he has them.

My horse had ulcers in the glandular region of the stomach (the lower half where the acid sits) and these are uncommon. 80% of horse have them in the squamous region and are caused by things like acid splashes during exercise, periods of time without food etc. The ones Winston had are caused by one of three things, stress, long term NSAIDs (bute etc) or a handful of very rare gastro intestinal diseases. His were stress based and a move of yard did the trick in preventing any more.

However the bottom line is that whilst you can prevent further ulcers by management, supplements etc once the ulcers are there they need to be treated with the appropriate drugs. Gastroguard being a very effective one but brace yourself - it is approx £25 a tube (prescription only) and my horse needed a tube a day for 4 weeks!! Definitely an insurance job!! They will not heal on their own.

The one way to avoid scoping is to have the ulcers treated on the assumption they are there and if the horse improves then you have guessed correctly - you can give gastroguard for 5-7 days and it will make the horse much more comfortable but will not heal the ulcers - longer term dosing is required for that.

Good luck whatever you decided to do and I am sorry you have bought such a nightmare! We have all been there and got the teashirt one way or another - I seem to be in the habit of buying lame and sick ones despite 5 stage vetting.
 
Hi yes I know I should send him back/take ex owner to court. I know it would be a battle because I contacted the ex owner initially and she was adamant he had never been like this with her. I don't believe her; if he had been 100% as told to me ridden and in every other way why would he have been ridden in draw reins and his muscles so contracted? I wouldn't now like to send him back as I really feel this is the end of the road for him. Someone needs to take responsibilty for him and get him sorted out one way or another. If he really is dangerous and unpredictable he would ultimately need to be pts.

Call me a sucker but it has now got to a stage where I am quite attached to the demon horse, who incidentally has a kind eye. I do get snatches of great affection from him and also really nasty sneaky bite attempts. I have been scared witless by him, upset to crying with frustration, but I have always felt sorry for him, because he is clearly so very unhappy and I don't think it's me or the environment I offer him that is the cause of that. he is insured so I do want to get to the bottom of his problem if that is at all possible. I can't believe that noone has bothered to date.
I made enquiries and found out his history and it seems he was a rather spoilt foal, who was sold to a competition home, he started showing aggression at 3 so was sent to a heavy handed trainer who 'broke him' likely rode him very abusively and when he got worse in his behanviour he was deemed dangerous and sold for a fraction of cost to a dealer. Nice eh? This dealer sold him to the ex-owner I purchased him from. She says she had him for 18 mnths and she broke him in haha lies there as I found out, but she may have been unaware I suppose. I am only guessing here but maybe he was better in the summer with grass and more turnout and this owner was desperate to be shot of him before the winter and rugs/ stabling etc. Who knows. I bought him on recommendation from a friend who felt so very sorry for him. May I stress that none of us were aware at all of the temperament and had I been he wouldn't be mine now! He is actually my worst nightmare of a horse and if this is his true temperament which I don't believe I would have him pts.
That is very interesting about the 2 types of ulcer - so if he has a glandular type all the available forage on the world may not help him for long term management anyway!
Our yard is very quiet - 2 older horses and a pony. The horses mares love him, but 1 is scared and the other challenges him and vice versa. The pony like him and ditto he likes the pony. So most of the time he has company alongside him rather than with him - he has a speaking grill to a mare in his stable too. He is turned out daily. Maybe the change of home ahs again upset him; I just hope that if he has ulcvers and they are treated that he is happy enough in this environment for them not to return. He is a very interesting case. I could have done without this horsemanship learning curve at my time of life. I will keep you all updated. I will call the vet and the insurance co tomorrow. He is insured. Thanks again for the advice and replies!
 
hope you get legalities sorted - not on really. Vet will probably give a course of omeprazole and ask to change to hay and fibre only diet e.g. chaff/speedibeet or even speedibeet only to begin with. No oils or hard feed as these can be acid sequestrant and irritants but they usually scope first to see extent of lesions. Def insurance job - plus you have to transport him to hospital yourself. Poor lil pony!
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I forgot to say in my 'potted history' that within 4 days of having him he kicked one of our young barn cats in the paddock smashing his femur top clean off - that resulted in a £1,600 vet bill for the cat! An angry horse!
I have spoken with vets this morning and am planning scoping at home hopefully end of this week/beginning of next. Will let you know the results........
 
I think you need to do a longer bute trial, at least a week to see if there is any effect. He sounds as though he is in pain.
 
Hi yes thanks I did consider that it needed a longer test period. I did do 4 days in all. 2 days on 1 bute and 2 days on 2 bute; then I started to worry that the bute may not be good if he has ulcers (I believe long term use of NSAIDs can cause ulcers!).
I think if the scoping shows up nothing we will certainly investigate further - with back/neck brain? I recently heard of a horse who had spinal degeneration and it was only very young; very hard to diagnose pain sometimes. I am certain that something is very wrong - I just hope it is fixable and not terminal.
 
Hi all, well my horse was scoped this afternoon and only 3 ulcers found. 1 in the glandular area and 2 towards the lower intestine, which the vet said were unusual as acid is not normally present there. The ulcers are all low grade, bad enough to require treatment (stomach was inflamed also), however vet said unless the horse is very sensitive she would be surprised if they are the cause of such aggressive behaviour. The vet suggests horse could have been abused in a stable before hence such aggressive behaviour in stable and much lesser on yard. He was the best behaved horse they had ever scoped which is encouraging.
I am wondering if my 'ulcer horse' diet has maybe helped calm an even more inflamed stomach also meanwhile???? Although I appreciate any ulcers would leave a sign.
Upshot is I am going to turn him away unrugged and out fully with a field shelter for a month. Give him a month's treatment of Gastrogard and sucralfate and see if in a month's time his attitude has changed and he will be saddled in the field. Perhaps the stress of being stabled is too much for him. He is sensitive. Whilst he was doped the vet xrayed his back over the wither area and behind and found nothing abnormal, so at least I know that is clear, but he did get angry at having the back xray done - strange ? will post an update at the end of February!!! Has anyone had a horse showing aggression just with low grade ulcers? Thanks
 
Glad scope went well. Ulcers are very painful even if you had one so can understand if your pony sensitive. Can sort of understand why she gets them if she's so on edge. Good idea to turn away for a while and just give her fuss etc. Have you thought of flower remedies to help? I know it sounds a bit airy fairy but it does help and many people use rescue remedy. I would recommend some of that each day over the course of the month.
 
Hi good idea Tallyho - I like Rescue Remedy and will add to a water bucket - I have used aromatherapy oils with him and he loves them. I put drops on rags and he can self medicate.
Just trying to research feeds as I have a nasty niggle that my 'perfect diet' for him may just be blowing his brain!!
I have been feeding 'Coolstance' - a copra (coconut ) diet which is high in oil and 23% protein and Alfa A Oil, the latter which I read many people suggest can blow horses minds. I am going to change completely to just Fast Fibre and unmolassed beet pulp and adlib hay and haylage. He isn't working so he doesn't need high protein.
The stress head will obviously cause the ulcers and it hadn't really occurred to me that the diet may be a big source of the stressy head as well as the stabling. Silly really I know!!

Opinions on the Coolstance welcomed please! Thanks
 
Wow....your boy sounds similar to one of mine.

Suspected ulcers - scope showed there WERE ulcers, but shouldn't have been bad enough for such violent behaviour, my boy even had them in the second part of the stomach as you say yours does.

Gastrogard fixed the ulcers but behaviour continued.

The behaviour sounds very similar to how you describe your boy.

It's been a long recovery for my boy, but I feel we are now getting somewhere, he's on a high oil diet and has to be kept VERY warm (please be wary about turning away without a rug until you know what is going on, I tried this tactic and made things 100 times worse!)
 
My mare was how you describe your new horse to be and although i didn't have her scoped, I believed it to be ulcers caused by competition stress. If I had her as a starter today I would do things the same things, only sooner.

Back checked and found to be in pain all over.
Teeth checked and found to have a slash on the inside of her cheek and a hole completely through her tounge.
Feet didn't look right and could not hold a shoe, plus she pulled them off deliberatly. I guessed they were uncomfortable so had them pulled and feet trimmed.
She was terrified of being alone and hated stableing.
Wouldn't stand at all, to be groomed or otherwise, so bought an elastic rope so she wouldn't freak out and hurt herself.
Gave her lots of hand grooming and in hand grazing.
In the spring I turned her out rugless and shoeless 24/7 with a little herd in a 6 acre Meadow, bringing her in at 5 every day for a groom and a small feed only.

I don't know which of these actions worked, but she's fantastic now and I can't fault her. She is happiest though on a busy yard and can be stressy and spoilt. Pretty good though for a mare I was told to PTS.

I do wish you the very best of luck with your fella as it can be a long and very hard road if you keep him.
 
Hi oh gosh Trouble I don't the sound of similarity!!!! Horse is now seemingly stressing being out unbelievably. Turned him out with pony in next door paddock, but he will be coming in tonight - like now! He does have a field shelter = maybe we will try a rug?

Will let you know how we get on. This is my worst nightmare honestly....
 
Hi I suppose it will be trial and error to find if he seeks and needs the quiet life or the busy yard like Elsbells horse.

I reckon that his aggression is likely a combination of pain aggression and fear and anxiety aggression. He is extremely unpredictable and the vet nurses were urging us to take great care as they were shocked at how sharp and aggressive he is.
Trouble I don't know what to do about the rugging - he so violently objects to it with front leg striking that we can't help but think 'stay cold mate'. He is very stable terretorial and I think the only way to maybe break that aggressive behaviour cycle is to take the stable away?
I have started with the feed change I hope the drop in protein may help. He can get into a roomy field shelter if he is cold. Maybe he will seek human company more if he is lonely turned out 24/7? Something has to change fast.
What made your horse improve Trouble? We have had back/teeth checked. Hubby is a farrier so he is has beautifully balanced barefeet now! His shoulders are very tense, but that ties in with stress? Bought a hand massager but I doubt he will allow me to use it on him yet, maybe one day.
 
You know, fast fiberre is full of calories. I wouldn't feed unless need extra energy for my chilled chap. What about hi fi lite and speedibeet? No calories, good for digestion and no sugar for any heat... I'm so sure he will be just fine, you have been so understanding of him and I think despite his behaviour you actually love him lots and maybe somewhere you see the real him and that's what's keeping him smo close.
 
With Snip I have had him on a high oil (up to 700 ml in a day at his worst, now down to about 300-400ml) and cut out sugars and starches. All he gets is Alfa A molasses free and speedibeet to dampen it. Main diet is good old hay. I've started to reintroduce a small amount of haylage in his net 'as a treat' rather than sustainence.

I cut out all carrots/apples/polos and was obsessive about reading the ingredients on treats so they were as 'clean' as possible.

Supplement wise, I have to make sure he gets a good dose of vit E and selenium to counter the high oil, but I also want a good all round supplement so I use winningedge Silver, which has all the neccessaty amino acids.

He's currently out of work, I gave him last year off to let his muscles recover, and then just as I was starting him again (and it was going REALLY well!) he gashed his leg and was on box rest for 8 weeks, by which time the weather and temperatures were against us so I decided to leave him for the winter. Then of course I'm now lame (broken knee!) so getting him restarted in 2011 is looking dubious because I won't start it unless I can see it through, but I'm not sure when my knee will be strong enough to cope if he DOES act up. (My knee is in a really bad way)

Not sure what to suggest RE the rug - does he feel cold? If not then I'd suggest leaving without, if he seems happier. You might find as he becomes more comfortable he accepts it...perhaps try practicing with soft fleeces?
 
It sounds like your doing all the right things that you can with him, and let's face it, he won't let you do anything else at the moment anyway.

I know it sounds mad, but I always ask Els if she wants something of not. For example, if I try to use a heavy rug on her and she's to warm for it, she'll shove me and say no, then I'll do as I'm told and fetch a lighter one and then I won't get shoved.
I know it's nuts, but it works for us and I do this with all her managment, I am after all her hand servant.

A lot of situations with sensitive and clever horses can seem off the wall and I have found that you have to think outside the box. Follow your raw gut instinct and what you feel he's trying to tell you and not what you think you should be doing.

You have a wealth of experience on your side thankfully, much more than me the novice and I don't want sound like I'm teaching a grandmother to suck eggs and I hope you don't mind but I'm just throwing you ideas your way to try.

It is a very steep learnng curve, but if all comes right your horse will be fine and you'll........... be completely bonkers!!;):D
 
Also to add to the above, Snip has had regular Bowen therapy for the last couple of years and that really helps him. I bought him a magnetic rug and normally he'd wear that every night when stabled (can't at the moment because I'm having to pay to have them done for me whilst I'm crippled, and can't really expect the others to have time to mess with magnetic rugs!) and he gets a daily session with a massage pad.

I'm stockpiling Dantrium whilst my insurance claim is still open, so that when we are ready to work I can have him medicated to not tie up.
 
Gosh thanks for all the replies and ellsbells no I don't think that's strange to ask your horse at all what he wants! Mine very definately tells us what he does and doesn't want. When he bucked like he did with my daughter he had adamantly been saying he didn't want to be ridden. If a horse isn't willingly saddled and then not keen to be mounted that does speak volumes and we should have 'listened'. It's a case of trying to eliminate all the problems. I have used a magnetic rug on him when he was just about accepting a rug!

I btry to 'listen' to him, hence I have ceased rugging - the front leg striking speaks volumes to me!

I have used an Equine Touch therapist and he was very sore. His muscles are so tight presumably from the way he has been ridden and probably through being stressed. I am hoping that we will get to a point where I can safely massage him and he will enjoy 'hands on'. Weird thing was because he doesnt enjoy being touched I got a Quantum Touch therapist out (energy based therapy) and he hated that and was so aggressive in the days following that therapy!

Thanks for all your experiences and encouraging words. I will just feed the beet and hifi lite now. Lets hope the change of feed will calm him. I have lots of good hay we just bought.
 
Just thought I would write a short update - I really think we have progress - nearly 2 weeks into the Gastrogard and diet change - he is one very chilled horse - really calm and happy. I am actually depooing his field with him in it albeit with an eye on him. This is a first. I have had no horrible faces.
I am getting a further thing checked out though.
He also has a slight overbite which concerns me and I am now wondering if he may have TMJ pain or even TMD particularly as I contacted original owener who was unaware iof any overbite when he was checked at 3 yrs old and he needed no work then. Recent dental visit resulted in much corrective work (I was unaware - as horse was at a friends and this detail not given to me). The young dentist agrees with me that he could do with thorough examination by an experienced dentist to check teh TMJ etc. Now have powerful oral sedative and exp dentist coming next Friday!
I think this horse may have several things going on incl a people issue due to past abuse, the ulcers and maybe another pain issue.
If he won't be saddled and shows no significant improvement in a month then I shall try a month of Danylon to eliminate a 'pain issue'. Hopefully will get there eventually!
 
HANG ON IN THERE!!! I helped a friend through a near mirror image of your plight. After a 3month stint on Gastroguard it was reduced to half measure then quarter measures daily. When the Gastroguard stopped within 24 hours the aggression had returned i.e. rugging up, grooming. Vet put her on Equitop brilliant stuff within 48 hours totally different horse, loving in all ways. We were told that when Gastroguard finishes sometimes a 'lighter' medication is needed. Her yard was busy - moved to field few mares/geldings & the change was amazing, as much grazing/turnout as possible.
She was told NO BUTE! When summer comes NO GARLIC as this can irritate. She was a warmblood, a 4yo & had been pole rapped, pain level apparently well known to be quite low, her cause probably stress of the move/busy yard .
My main point is are you aware that Redmills Connelly's do a feed called Redmills 10. About £10 a bag, but one highly recommended for ulcer sufferers by vets/ race yards as they have alot of ulcer cases. She was told no supplements needed. Mollichaff was allowed low sugar a herbal variety is available.
You are obviously a good person giving your horse every chance like my friend, hat off to you. It was seven months of hell & scary moments but worth it. At least you can say at the end of your journey which ever way it pans out that you DID your best. Good Luck. x
 
Thanks RaceyRuby, I needed some positivity today!! I have done what the vets suggested and turned my boy out - he has 3 huge forage meals a day which he really now seems to enjoy and adlib mix of coarse and soft hay. He has a field shelter and absolutely no demands have been made on him, via grooming catching or anything. Anyway because he has such 'low grade' ulcers I am probably understandably still very worried that there is another 'main' underlying problem. I had my extremely experienced dentist out on Friday and the vet had given me some very strong oral sedative you put under the tongue. My horse has a very slight overbite and I wanted him checked for TMD/TMJ. Anyway to cut a long story short my daughter and I tried to give him the sedative in the field and he was striking out and rearing full up (twice). How can I say it wasn't a nasty attack or vicious response like his biting has been, but all the same he was clearly saying get lost I am not letting you do that.
I can't tell you how disappointed I was. I suppose that I expected him to be much better to handle now after 3 weeks on the Gastrogard. He now lets me stroke his shoulder and wither without bother.
My last resort will be a painkiller trial. It won't be bute because of the ulcer tendency. I need to know if this horse has another underlying pain issue. He was fine when I viewed him and ridden (apart from a stuffy gait) and for his 5 stage vetting. I did consult an old vet friend who advised me to be extremely careful and that the horse rather than showing great disrespect because he knows I am fearful of injury - probably realises that I am not going to do anything to hurt him and is therefore remonstrating very clearly that he has a problem through this behaviour. Of course the added complication here is that we are certain he has been ridden abused.
Thank-you for the feed advice - I was looking for what supplement maybe to feed after the ulcer treatment finishes. I have some 'Gastro Plus' but the supplements are so expensive with the cheapest being around £40 pm. The one thing I do not have at the moment is grass, but I do have a very large summer paddock that he will be turned out in come May. So if I have no improvement and the pain trial proves nothing I will give him the benefit of seeing if he improves on grass. Could be why the ex owner so keen to get rid of him in September with winter round the corner!
Oh and yes I am going to have iridology done. I see this as being maybe extremely beneficial, particularly in my horse's case. Thank-you all again for your support!
 
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