Advice please regarding livery fees

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Sunbeamstarshine

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Just a quick question, I gave notice today at the stables where I keep my horse, I have been there for 6 weeks and it isnt working out for various reasons not to mention the amount of fuel I am going through in my car to get there twice a day. The rent was due this weekend, I have given one weeks notice to move which I am doing on or before next weekend. We had no notice period agreement put in place, no contract or anything. I also have to pay a months livery up front (as expected) on moving to new yard next weekend. The YO at my current yard has now decided she feels it is unfair that I have only given one weeks notice (which I have paid for) and feels that I should pay until the end of the month, even though I wont be keeping my horse there. What does everyone else think? Has anyone else had a similar experience and if so what arrangement did you come to? I am unsure as to the protocol to follow in this kind of situation but feel I have been fair to pay until my horse leaves. Any advice would be very greatfully received. Thanks!
 
would you of been paying your livery monthly ? if yes then the general unwritten contract/rule is pay monthly, give a months notice on both parties sides
 
Yes it was paid monthly however I paid for the first two weeks when I moved on, then for the following month and I have now given notice. I have always paid weekly in the past (at previous yards) and only agreed to pay monthly as she wouldnt accept weekly, if I had known that paying monthly equates to a months notice I may have decided not to move there at all! If I had known then what I know now I also would never have moved there, hindsight eh! I cant really afford to pay for livery until the end of the month at my current yard (especially when I am not even there!) and livery at my new yard for a month too. Especially as I have pretty much kept her horses in hay this last month (one of the many reasons I am moving) I have spent an absolute fortune! It does seem unfair to expect me to pay when my horse wont be there in my opinion, if it were a business livery I would think differently but it is not it is a private livery not for business purposes. I may have considered staying until the end of the month had things not become so strained and difficult, I fear for what she may actually do to my horse now she knows I am leaving and want him out of there as soon as possible! How can you give a months notice to someone who you feel may harm your horse in retaliation? I have never encountered such people in all my years of having horses! I dont know what the solution is here I just know I want my horse out of there as soon as possible :(
 
Hello so glad you have found a new yard to move to. Your previous posts about having to feed the YOs horses as well as your own was really distressing and I'm so glad this will all be behind you next week. If you paid for two weeks when you moved on, I would probably consider this a fair notice period. If I understand correctly, it was the YO who then changed the goal posts and insisted on monthly thereafter. Only you know whether the YO is likely to try anything spiteful - has anything been said that may lead you to believe this is likely? Could the date of moving to the new yard be brought forward at all?
 
Hello so glad you have found a new yard to move to. Your previous posts about having to feed the YOs horses as well as your own was really distressing and I'm so glad this will all be behind you next week. If you paid for two weeks when you moved on, I would probably consider this a fair notice period. If I understand correctly, it was the YO who then changed the goal posts and insisted on monthly thereafter. Only you know whether the YO is likely to try anything spiteful - has anything been said that may lead you to believe this is likely? Could the date of moving to the new yard be brought forward at all?
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Hi Wednesdays Child, yes I am so glad to be moving on this has been the most awful 6 weeks I've ever had! The YO has let a few things slip about what she has done to people who supposedly 'owe her money', this includes tracking people down and letting their horses out! Amongst other things. I had no idea what kind of person she was until I moved onto the yard, she was a stranger so I knew nothing about her at all. There have been a few things that have been said that has led me to believe she could be quite nasty, I just want him moving asap. I dont know what she is capable of I just now know shes a bit of a dodgy character. I could try and arrange transport for an earlier day, the new livery is ready for me whenever I want it. I'm scared whatever I do will bring repercussions, she sees this kind of thing as people crossing her. I dont feel I should have to pay a months rent but had considered maybe paying for an extra week as a gesture of good will. I dont want any 'bad blood' or a reason for her to 'come after me' if you know what I mean. Really is a stressful and upsetting situation. :(
 
Bless your heart. She sounds like a really nasty piece of work. However, I strongly suspect she is full of cr*p regarding her threats. I'd personally tell her that you've been contacted by a friend who is moving to the area and that you've recommended her yard in the new year! It may ease the atmosphere whilst you can make your escape! Do you keep your tack and rugs in a communal tack room? If so, I'd be inclined to take anything valuable home tomorrow for 'cleaning'. Hold your nerve, and get the transport to the new yard sorted ASAP.
 
If the livery is paid monthly and you only paid for 2 weeks as that was an adjustment as you moved in partway through the month which is completely normal practice then you have to give a months notice.

That applies whether the YO is nice or horrible.

Some may waive it as a gesture of goodwill if they fill your box straightaway but they are under no obligation to do so.

She could legally chase you for the money owed though shouldn't use threats to get it.
 
If the livery is paid monthly and you only paid for 2 weeks as that was an adjustment as you moved in partway through the month which is completely normal practice then you have to give a months notice.

That applies whether the YO is nice or horrible.

Some may waive it as a gesture of goodwill if they fill your box straightaway but they are under no obligation to do so.

She could legally chase you for the money owed though shouldn't use threats to get it.
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We have no contract or written agreement, it wasnt even discussed verbally! What legal right would she have to chase me??
 
Bless your heart. She sounds like a really nasty piece of work. However, I strongly suspect she is full of cr*p regarding her threats. I'd personally tell her that you've been contacted by a friend who is moving to the area and that you've recommended her yard in the new year! It may ease the atmosphere whilst you can make your escape! Do you keep your tack and rugs in a communal tack room? If so, I'd be inclined to take anything valuable home tomorrow for 'cleaning'. Hold your nerve, and get the transport to the new yard sorted ASAP.
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Oh gosh my tack! Will do that first thing tomorrow, think I've been so stressed about my horse and his safety I hadnt even considered my tack and rugs, theres hundreds of pounds worth of equipment all together :( need to get it out asap!!! Good idea about the friend story, will use that! Its a shame that people have to be this way, at the end of the day the safety of my horse comes first not filling the pockets of someone who cant even be bothered to feed their own animals! As I say this is not a business operated livery it is a private yard, she is not out of pocket per se.
 
criso said:
If the livery is paid monthly and you only paid for 2 weeks as that was an adjustment as you moved in partway through the month which is completely normal practice then you have to give a months notice.

That applies whether the YO is nice or horrible.
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This^^^

Pay monthly = months notice
 
Where there is no contract or otherwise the notice period is taken to be how often the livery is paid. So if it is normally paid monthly, then that would be the notice you have to give.

If you had discussed it and agreed say a week or had a contract that stated otherwise, then that would have over ruled the default but you are saying you didn't so that is what they would assume.

If you are a BHS member I would call them and get legal advice. Sounds like you need to be careful with this person.
 
if I could afford it just pay it and ship out. not that you should have to really she should pay you for the hay but for an easy life if she's a nutter ! you'll have the last laugh on your nice yard
 
Sunbeamstarshine and wednesdayschild... You write so similarly you could be twins!!! You owe a months notice... That's the bottom line... Have some dignity and pay it... Yes it is fair... So pay it and move yards. If yo told you to move with no notice you wouldn't be happy you would be screeching at the top of your lungs that she should give you a months notice... The reverse is fair.
 
If there is no contract then go up to the yard pack your stuff and go.

So what if she runs her mouth after the fact you wont be near her and really all her yelping will do is sound like sour grapes.

Any self respecting livery owner doesnt chase their old liveries making their lives unhappy, they chalk it up, move on and fill the stable and sort out a proper contract if ones not already in place. If its not being run as a business (although charging mean that you are i providing a service wonder if mr tax man knows ;) ) then not a legal leg really to stand on and police etc wont take notice as nowt stolen.

It will cost her more to chase you than she would get, chances are she wont chase you
 
Where there is no contract or otherwise the notice period is taken to be how often the livery is paid. So if it is normally paid monthly, then that would be the notice you have to give.

If you had discussed it and agreed say a week or had a contract that stated otherwise, then that would have over ruled the default but you are saying you didn't so that is what they would assume.

If you are a BHS member I would call them and get legal advice. Sounds like you need to be careful with this person.
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What legal documentation, information, fact are you working from Criso? Is this actual LAW or just what you believe to be true? I would like to know so that I have some idea of what my rights are.
 
Sunbeamstarshine and wednesdayschild... You write so similarly you could be twins!!! You owe a months notice... That's the bottom line... Have some dignity and pay it... Yes it is fair... So pay it and move yards. If yo told you to move with no notice you wouldn't be happy you would be screeching at the top of your lungs that she should give you a months notice... The reverse is fair.
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I shall repeat, in case you missed it in my previous post, how is it possible to give a months notice to someone who you believe is capable of causing harm to your horse once they realise you are leaving? How on earth can you be expected to stay for a whole month when there is no trust whatsoever that your animal is safe?? So on that basis, how is it fair or reasonable to expect me to pay? Moreover why should I be accountable for a months notice to someone who has caused me to be out of pocket myself as I have had to feed her horses hay for 3 weeks? Yes thats right, I HAD to, I could not leave horses with no grazing to fight and hurt each other because they were so hungary! And my horse was stuck in the middle of that!
 
If there is no contract then go up to the yard pack your stuff and go.

So what if she runs her mouth after the fact you wont be near her and really all her yelping will do is sound like sour grapes.

Any self respecting livery owner doesnt chase their old liveries making their lives unhappy, they chalk it up, move on and fill the stable and sort out a proper contract if ones not already in place. If its not being run as a business (although charging mean that you are i providing a service wonder if mr tax man knows ;) ) then not a legal leg really to stand on and police etc wont take notice as nowt stolen.

It will cost her more to chase you than she would get, chances are she wont chase you
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That is a very valid point, I bet Mr. Taxman does not know about it for sure! I am tempted to just go and not even discuss the matter with her any further but in the interest of fairness I was trying to be open minded about what is the right thing to do. But having thought about it more she wasn't interested in what the right thing to do was when her horses were going hungary and trying to bite and kick my horse! Nor was she interested in what was right and fair when I was buying hay for her animals! Funny how she expects me to now do what she deems to be the right and fair thing when the boot is on the other foot!!
 
Sunbeamstarshine said:
I shall repeat, in case you missed it in my previous post, how is it possible to give a months notice to someone who you believe is capable of causing harm to your horse once they realise you are leaving? How on earth can you be expected to stay for a whole month when there is no trust whatsoever that your animal is safe??
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You don't have to stay for the month/notice period, just pay for it.



Sunbeamstarshine said:
Moreover why should I be accountable for a months notice to someone who has caused me to be out of pocket myself as I have had to feed her horses hay for 3 weeks? Yes thats right, I HAD to, I could not leave horses with no grazing to fight and hurt each other because they were so hungary! And my horse was stuck in the middle of that!
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No you did not have to hay her horses for 3 weeks, you could have moved yours as soon as you had concerns.
 
Sunbeamstarshine said:
What legal documentation, information, fact are you working from Criso? Is this actual LAW or just what you believe to be true? I would like to know so that I have some idea of what my rights are.
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Working on advice from solicitors at various times. It's not just livery yards this applies to but also things like renting flats and houses. Reasonable notice has to be given by either side and in the absence of a contract then frequency of payments is looked at as a guideline.

Also you should put your notice in writing so you can prove exactly when you handed it in.

The exception is of course if either of you have broken the terms of the agreement, but without an actual agreement that's more difficult to prove.

You could be right that the YO is not paying tax and may not want to get into a legal battle, it's your call whether to risk it. But small claims is a cheap easy route to get money owed though it sounds like they would use more unorthodox methods.

But please do get some legal advice, what someone advised me may not apply in your case.
 
piebaldsparkle said:
You don't have to stay for the month/notice period, just pay for it.

How is this fair? Surely fair would be to give a months notice and stay for the duration of the notice period and then move to new yard? How is this possible when I am concerned as to the safety of my horse?



No you did not have to hay her horses for 3 weeks, you could have moved yours as soon as you had concerns.
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Yes I did. The immediate situation that I had no choice other than to deal with was to feed her horses in order to also feed mine and keep him safe! Hes bottom of the pecking order and was kicked by one of the other horses because they wanted his pile of hay. It has taken me three weeks to find a new yard to move to. In my neck of the woods thats pretty good going, especially coming into winter. If you have the luxury of being able to immediately move from one yard to another then you are very lucky!
 
Working on advice from solicitors at various times. It's not just livery yards this applies to but also things like renting flats and houses. Reasonable notice has to be given by either side and in the absence of a contract then frequency of payments is looked at as a guideline.

Also you should put your notice in writing so you can prove exactly when you handed it in.

The exception is of course if either of you have broken the terms of the agreement, but without an actual agreement that's more difficult to prove.

You could be right that the YO is not paying tax and may not want to get into a legal battle, it's your call whether to risk it. But small claims is a cheap easy route to get money owed though it sounds like they would use more unorthodox methods.

But please do get some legal advice, what someone advised me may not apply in your case.
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Thank you Criso, I will look into it more to ascertain what the facts are in this situation. Given that there was no written or verbal agreement in relation to giving notice but there was a verbal agreement to put hay out for the horses between us which she then relinquished on (although I agree hard to prove) it would appear that she herself has broken any agreement that was in place which prompted me to make the decision to move in the first place.
 
Sunbeamstarshine said:
Yes I did. The immediate situation that I had no choice other than to deal with was to feed her horses in order to also feed mine and keep him safe! Hes bottom of the pecking order and was kicked by one of the other horses because they wanted his pile of hay. It has taken me three weeks to find a new yard to move to. In my neck of the woods thats pretty good going, especially coming into winter. If you have the luxury of being able to immediately move from one yard to another then you are very lucky!
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i would have brought mine in over night for adlib hay, then would not of worried about her only having a pick of grass during the day.
 
i would have brought mine in over night for adlib hay, then would not of worried about her only having a pick of grass during the day.
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I tried that, he was not happy at all so had to turn him back out before I went home. The paddock is not within visible distance of the stable block and he panics when he is on his own, hes a rescue animal who was abandoned. He has in the past come over his stable door when left in without company he was lucky to escape with just a few stitches, the door was not so lucky.
 
You could argue that if part of the services agreed was that the field was hayed then she has gone back on that and not provided what was agreed. She would then be in breach of contract and then you would not have to give full notice.

The problem here is there is no standard, some yards put hay in the field free of charge, some do it but expect you to pay, some expect you to take care of it, some don't allow it at all and prefer you to bring horses in to feed hay to avoid kicking matches. So you're back to her word against yours. Its not like say broken fencing or a stable that's fallen down where everyone is clear what should be provided.

Notice periods are more standard so even with no contract there are guidelines.
 
You could argue that if part of the services agreed was that the field was hayed then she has gone back on that and not provided what was agreed. She would then be in breach of contract and then you would not have to give full notice.

The problem here is there is no standard, some yards put hay in the field free of charge, some do it but expect you to pay, some expect you to take care of it, some don't allow it at all and prefer you to bring horses in to feed hay to avoid kicking matches. So you're back to her word against yours. Its not like say broken fencing or a stable that's fallen down where everyone is clear what should be provided.

Notice periods are more standard so even with no contract there are guidelines.
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The yard is not run in that way. It is just me and my horse and her and her horses. No-one else. Its not run in a professional sense. Essentially the agreement was that we were going to work together. Hay the horses when it got colder and there was no grass. We had a conversation about that, she agreed to put hay out for hers and I would put hay out for mine. She paid for her own hay and I paid for my own hay. My partner was a witness to that conversation taking place. Hay was put out for a couple of days until she ran out. She had no hay at all for 3 weeks. We also had an agreement that she would go up one day to check them, fill waters etc and I would go up the next. This was also relinquished on. When I went up on my day they had no water, at all, they had not been up to do them the day before. So alot of what we initially agreed she went back on without even a word about it.
 
The point I was making was that whether professional or informal set up , there is no cut and dried right and wrong about putting hay out so you are dependent on proving who said what.

I think this just shows that even for informal arrangements, it good to get what's been agreed in writing.
 
If you have no agreement and feel the YO has behaved very unreasonably then I would up and go with no notice, put your foot down and point this out and say you arent paying a month because a) you are out of pocket over the hay and b) you wont be there for that time

Or do the thing that would happen in an amicable situation and pay the month (which is the accepted 'rule' if you pay monthly)

But it seems you are somewhere in the middle which seems to be on your own terms which doesnt send a clear message to the YO and I can see why they think its YOU being unreasonable - its kind of like flouncing out of a meeting but then having to wait in the corner for a taxi lol

The petrol thing is just muddying the water - you must have known where the yard was when you arranged the livery
 
i was in the same position once - just pay the month and cut your losses....

i lost a lot of money i wasnt expecting to loose - but since then months pay = - months notice...!
 
(As a YO myself) TBH if there is no signed and dated contract stating period of notice and/or payments required, then YO hasn't got a leg to stand on and personally I wouldn't have anything to do with this sort of yard in the first place (sorry, know its easy to be wise after the event, and sorry if I'm sounding preachy).

I've only skim-read the other posts on here, BUT hopefully OP is in a much better place - but, um, PLEASE do make sure to sign a proper up-front livery contract BEFORE moving in. I am sure OP has learned from her experiences tho' and hopefully things will work out better for the future.
 
If you have no agreement and feel the YO has behaved very unreasonably then I would up and go with no notice, put your foot down and point this out and say you arent paying a month because a) you are out of pocket over the hay and b) you wont be there for that time

Or do the thing that would happen in an amicable situation and pay the month (which is the accepted 'rule' if you pay monthly)

But it seems you are somewhere in the middle which seems to be on your own terms which doesnt send a clear message to the YO and I can see why they think its YOU being unreasonable - its kind of like flouncing out of a meeting but then having to wait in the corner for a taxi lol

The petrol thing is just muddying the water - you must have known where the yard was when you arranged the livery
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I see your point completely Welsh D, I should have maybe made it clearer why I am leaving. I did not get into the 'you owe me this and you didnt do that' with her as a) she scares me! and b) I was trying to keep it as amicable as possible. I did not expect her to expect me to pay for a whole month when she knows my horse is going at the weekend. I thought she might at least have a little integrity somewhere knowing full well that I am out of pocket myself.

As for the petrol, it became an issue because as I say we made an agreement, albeit a verbal one, to split the days between us so that neither would need to go up every day as the yard is a fair distance for me and I made it clear that it would be difficult for me to do that. As far as I could see she was still getting the better end of the deal as she has two horses and I only have one! But she relinquished on that arrangement also.

This has most definately been a learning curve for me, will have livery arrangement/agreement in writing in future and will NEVER move him somewhere that is a fair distance away again! The options I had at the time were limited and this was the best of them, or so I thought! As long as we were both helping each other I thought it would be fine. From now on I will be relying on myself completely, new yard is a stones throw away and the best part of it is that I pretty much have it to myself :D
 
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