Advice please! Wither abcess/ bacterial infection...

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TT55

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Hi all,

Almost 3 weeks ago I went to tack up my horse and noticed she was really really sore on the side of her withers. People on my yard said that it was a bacterial infection that most of the horses had had and it clears up fairly quickly...

Fast forward to a week later and I noticed she was crusty on the top of her withers. I had a little investigate and away came a chunk of mane revealing an abcess about the size of a 10p piece. There was a big event on at my yard with a vet present so I got her to have a look. She gave me some bute (which i couldnt get my horse to eat) and promised to leave me some antibiotics at the end of the day (if she didnt use them). She never called so I assume she didnt have enough antibiotics to leave for me.

So 2 days later, I got a different vet to have a look who gave me some danilon and karidox and said that it was healing well.

It is now almost 2 weeks later. The abcess on the wither is almost gone, but it's still a bit sensitive so i cant put a saddle on. But now she seems to be getting mini abcesses on her sides (less than 5mm across). They appear like little bumps (only seem to be on the parts that are clipped) which then pop out like spots leaving a little raw patch.

Im getting so frustrated. Have been hibiscrubbing her. Have disinfected her brushes (but cant wash her rug as she doesnt have anything to wear while it dries). Thinking about putting her stable sheet underneath her stable rug and periodically washing it...?

Does anyone have any ideas on how i can get on top of this? Has anyone experienced something similar? How long does it take to clear up? I don't share tack or rugs so don't need to worry about pasisng it on (although not sure how she got it in the first place)

Another horse on the yard got it and it cleared up in less than a week. So not sure what i'm doing wrong!
 
Stop hibiscrubbing - it's vicious stuff and could be preventing healing. You're better off using a saline solution.

But it does sound as if it's time for the vet to come back, take some bloods and perhaps a skin scrape.
 
I haven't been hibiscrubbing the whole time, but I will stop and switch to saline. Thanks amymay.

Will call the vet if no improvement over the weekend.

So frustrating... i've only had horsey for less than 3 months and she's been out of action because of this for almost a third of that time :(
 
Sounds like a very compromised immune system to me.

Out of intetest what are you feeding, and what do you wash her numnah's in?
 
Sounds like dermatophilus. It's a bacterial infection of the hair follicle and is the same bacteria as rain scald. It breeds in warm, moist environments and can either be caused by horse getting wet or sweating excessively when working or when rugged. A horse can sweat under his rug without actual visible signs. This winter has been very mild so may be a contributer.
It sounds like you are doing all the right things.
As amymay says - whatch hibiscrub but it does have a place. Use diluted but only until scabs lift then use flamazine ointment available from vet. Don't use any oil based ointments as they also provide a breeding ground for bacteria.
You may need more than one course of antibiotics.
Try to leave rugs off when poss.
Should improve in 2-3 weeks but it will be a bit longer before hair returns.
 
amymay said:
Stop hibiscrubbing - it's vicious stuff and could be preventing healing. You're better off using a saline solution.

But it does sound as if it's time for the vet to come back, take some bloods and perhaps a skin scrape.
Click to expand...
Agree with this one of my horses is allergic to hibiscrub and lots of other stuff meant for horses., it makes his hair fall out and makes the area very sore.
 
amymay said:
Sounds like a very compromised immune system to me.

Out of intetest what are you feeding, and what do you wash her numnah's in?
Click to expand...

Her numnahs get washed in the washing machine, but with no detergent (so only water)

She has been on just ad lib hay and haylage (when she first arrived, YM advised not to feed hard feed as the haylage is so good) however she's dropped a bit of condition so i've just started her on a small amount of Graze On and Complete 365 (don't want to feed too much with her not working)

lamlyn2012 said:
Sounds like dermatophilus. It's a bacterial infection of the hair follicle and is the same bacteria as rain scald. It breeds in warm, moist environments and can either be caused by horse getting wet or sweating excessively when working or when rugged. A horse can sweat under his rug without actual visible signs. This winter has been very mild so may be a contributer.
It sounds like you are doing all the right things.
As amymay says - whatch hibiscrub but it does have a place. Use diluted but only until scabs lift then use flamazine ointment available from vet. Don't use any oil based ointments as they also provide a breeding ground for bacteria.
You may need more than one course of antibiotics.
Try to leave rugs off when poss.
Should improve in 2-3 weeks but it will be a bit longer before hair returns.
Click to expand...

Fides said:
Sounds like sweat scald to me. Is she heavily rugged? If so try dropping a rug...
Click to expand...

She is in a 300g rug. Is this too much? She has a chaser/ blanket clip (i.e diagonally line from wither to stifle) The bumps are on her clipped parts though, so if she was sweating surely it would be on her hairy bits?
 
amymay said:
300g is a pretty warm rug - for a mild winter. So she could be getting too hot.
Click to expand...

The weather is always so temperamental, I never know what to do with rugs! It was 16 the other day and it's meant to be -4 tonight! Will change her into her 100g with the stable sheet underneath. Will give me a chance to wash the 300g just in case it has any bacteria on it.

My Mum has lots of very horsey friends and as well meaning as they are, they are all throwing diagnosis's at me (which is annoying) and they are now saying it's fistulous wither and/or Brucellosis :-S

Pretty sure one of the 2 vets that saw her would have said something if they suspected Brucellosis??
 
My comments are based on my own recent experience but my vet did take a sample of hair (not skin scrape) to confirm diagnosis. Checking bacterial and not fungal. . My horse had same clip as yours and was advised by vet to clip out. I wouldn't put a rug on the sore areas though so mine was stabled for a couple of weeks until healed sufficiently to rug and was then clipped out. Clipping has made a big difference in keeping it under control. When clipped I found other little lumps which couldn't be felt under the winter coat. Most of these I managed with a Naff skin product which I had bought to prevent clipper rash. I would try lighter weight rugs. I was surprised by what they don't need to stay warm. It is a very distressing condition to deal with, I was in a real panic with it , especially as there was a second outbreak. Apparently some horses are more prone than others and once they've had it will tend to get it again so full clip may be the way to go in future.
You seem very stressed, and quite rightly so, I was too, but am just trying to help. It will get better.
I do think you need a positive diagnosis from vet though and do think about getting the flamazine. It's an antibacterial ointment and helps the skin to heal.
 
lamlyn2012 said:
My comments are based on my own recent experience but my vet did take a sample of hair (not skin scrape) to confirm diagnosis. Checking bacterial and not fungal. . My horse had same clip as yours and was advised by vet to clip out. I wouldn't put a rug on the sore areas though so mine was stabled for a couple of weeks until healed sufficiently to rug and was then clipped out. Clipping has made a big difference in keeping it under control. When clipped I found other little lumps which couldn't be felt under the winter coat. Most of these I managed with a Naff skin product which I had bought to prevent clipper rash. I would try lighter weight rugs. I was surprised by what they don't need to stay warm. It is a very distressing condition to deal with, I was in a real panic with it , especially as there was a second outbreak. Apparently some horses are more prone than others and once they've had it will tend to get it again so full clip may be the way to go in future.
You seem very stressed, and quite rightly so, I was too, but am just trying to help. It will get better.
I do think you need a positive diagnosis from vet though and do think about getting the flamazine. It's an antibacterial ointment and helps the skin to heal.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for your advice!

I washed her with saline today and put her lighter rug on with a stable sheet underneath, which i am going to try and wash daily... Her heavy rug has been disinfected and is hanging to dry, but i doubt I will need it again this winter.

Will call the vet on Monday and finger crossed I can get on top of this soon!
 
TT55 said:
Hi all,

Almost 3 weeks ago I went to tack up my horse and noticed she was really really sore on the side of her withers. People on my yard said that it was a bacterial infection that most of the horses had had and it clears up fairly quickly...

Fast forward to a week later and I noticed she was crusty on the top of her withers. I had a little investigate and away came a chunk of mane revealing an abcess about the size of a 10p piece. There was a big event on at my yard with a vet present so I got her to have a look. She gave me some bute (which i couldnt get my horse to eat) and promised to leave me some antibiotics at the end of the day (if she didnt use them). She never called so I assume she didnt have enough antibiotics to leave for me.

So 2 days later, I got a different vet to have a look who gave me some danilon and karidox and said that it was healing well.

It is now almost 2 weeks later. The abcess on the wither is almost gone, but it's still a bit sensitive so i cant put a saddle on. But now she seems to be getting mini abcesses on her sides (less than 5mm across). They appear like little bumps (only seem to be on the parts that are clipped) which then pop out like spots leaving a little raw patch.

Im getting so frustrated. Have been hibiscrubbing her. Have disinfected her brushes (but cant wash her rug as she doesnt have anything to wear while it dries). Thinking about putting her stable sheet underneath her stable rug and periodically washing it...?

Does anyone have any ideas on how i can get on top of this? Has anyone experienced something similar? How long does it take to clear up? I don't share tack or rugs so don't need to worry about pasisng it on (although not sure how she got it in the first place)

Another horse on the yard got it and it cleared up in less than a week. So not sure what i'm doing wrong!
Click to expand...

The sore on the top of her withers will have been caused by the weight of her rug, you say it is healing well. Is the scab solidly attached or will it come off if you wash the area. If it comes away then the wound beneath is still not healing. Apply some Hydrogen Peroxide to the wound, it will foam up releasing Oxygen which will destroy many harmful bacteria.

I would hazard a guess that the clippers are the source of the infection on the clipped areas. As others have said don't use Hibiscrub it is not meant for broken skin but for surgeons to sterilise their hands prior to surgery.

Wash area with diluted Nizoral which will both clean and destroy any possible fungal infection. You should be able to get either an antibacterial or antibiotic ointment from the chemist which you can apply. Otherwise make a reasonably strong solution of salt and dab that on.

The clipper head and blades need to be cleaned with alcohol to kill off any bugs. Allow alcohol to evaporate well prior to using.
 
With regard to the above:
Hibiscrub is used to remove scabs only therfore it is not being used on open skin. The scabs have to be removed to allow the skin below to heal. Otherwise the bacteria will remain and it spreads under the skin like tentacles waiting for an opportunity to resurface. Bacterial (silver) ointment is then applied to kill any remaining bacteria and to heal the skin. Strong saline should never be used as it destroys living cells. One teaspoon salt in one pint warm water is all that should be used. It is not known that this is a fungal infection. Skin infections need to be treated correctly to promote optimum healing and strong saline is not the way to go.

TT 55 , I know you are going to speak to your vet tomorrow and this is the best thing you can do.
I noted that you said you are washing numnahs etc in just plain water but this won't really clean them. I use a washing product designed for baby/sensitive skin and then rinse in a detol bacterial washing rinse which you put in fabric dispenser.
 
lamlyn2012 said:
With regard to the above:
Hibiscrub is used to remove scabs only therfore it is not being used on open skin. The scabs have to be removed to allow the skin below to heal. Otherwise the bacteria will remain and it spreads under the skin like tentacles waiting for an opportunity to resurface. Bacterial (silver) ointment is then applied to kill any remaining bacteria and to heal the skin. Strong saline should never be used as it destroys living cells. One teaspoon salt in one pint warm water is all that should be used. It is not known that this is a fungal infection. Skin infections need to be treated correctly to promote optimum healing and strong saline is not the way to go.

TT 55 , I know you are going to speak to your vet tomorrow and this is the best thing you can do.
I noted that you said you are washing numnahs etc in just plain water but this won't really clean them. I use a washing product designed for baby/sensitive skin and then rinse in a detol bacterial washing rinse which you put in fabric dispenser.
Click to expand...

Scabs will come off readily if the skin below is infected - if the scab doesn't come off then skin below is healthy and healing.

Hibiscrub is a very strong sterilising agent - far worse than salt which is a natural component of the body. If hibiscrub is being used to remove the scabs then it will come in contact with broken skin. My vet recommended packing a tear wound with salt crystals, something which I have done on many occasions with excellent results - virtually no scarring at all just a small lump beneath the skin.

Nizerol works both on fungal and bacterial infections - and as the temperatures have varied and the horse is wearing heavy rug then there is a possibility that a fungal infection could be present as a result of sweating and being in a damp rug for a time.

Wash the numnahs and other items of clothing in a warm wash using something such as Vetadine as a soap. Allow to soak for a few hours before actually washing. Rinse very thoroughly. Don't forget to wash your grooming kit after every use.
 
Interesting thread. Hibiscrub is imo overused and shoiuld be very dilute. As a nurse, I had to stop using it as the skin just came off my hands and arms.

I have had a horse with a fistulous wither type problem. Brucellosis was not present. A fistula is a cavity not a surface wound. The fistula needed to be opened and drained surgically.

Please don't get pushed around by people who don't know what they are on about.

Warm saline solution is a gentle way to clean wounds. Hibiscrub is a much abused substance and should be used for it's proper purpose.

It sounds like rainscald to me. Also had experience of this-this year. I clipped my pony and used iodine on the lesions. All healed up straight away and she is 24 with Cushings so not the toughest.
 
I will stick to saline solution for now. I don't think it can do much harm and by the sounds of it, hibiscrub is pretty potent.

Here are some photos if you are interested:

This is the wither abscess exactly 2 weeks ago when it first burst:

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b628/torface5/abcess/WP_20140216_002_zps69f532c8.jpg

This is the wither abscess today:

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b628/torface5/abcess/WP_20140302_001_zpsd3004f70.jpg

This is one of the bumps on her side after gently washing the scab off (it continued to weep a clear yellowy liquid after the scab came off). There are about 7 on her offside and only 2-3 on her near side

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b628/torface5/abcess/WP_20140302_006_zps546cdcff.jpg

A person who worked on my yard showed me a horse with what i believe is sweat scald/rash and it definitely isn't that. Not sure that it could be the clippers either as the bumps on her side have only come out in the past 3-4 days and she hasnt been clipped for a month...

Will be calling the vet tomorrow so I will update you when she has been!
 
horsemadmum1 said:
Interesting thread. Hibiscrub is imo overused and shoiuld be very dilute. As a nurse, I had to stop using it as the skin just came off my hands and arms.

I have had a horse with a fistulous wither type problem. Brucellosis was not present. A fistula is a cavity not a surface wound. The fistula needed to be opened and drained surgically.

Please don't get pushed around by people who don't know what they are on about.

Warm saline solution is a gentle way to clean wounds. Hibiscrub is a much abused substance and should be used for it's proper purpose.

It sounds like rainscald to me. Also had experience of this-this year. I clipped my pony and used iodine on the lesions. All healed up straight away and she is 24 with Cushings so not the toughest.
Click to expand...

Sounds a little bit rude to me! OP asked for experience of this and I gave her mine, after recently successfully nursing my horse through this. I don't like hibiscrub either but was advised to by my vet and used very dilute for no more than 2 days. Literally applied with a pad of cotton wool well squeezed out and residual moisture blotted dry with a towel.

Dermatophilus congolensis - aka rain scald/ sweat scald when on body or mud fever when on legs is a bacterial infection. It thrives on warm moist conditions and it is therefore important to avoid wetting the coat as much possible. It is also important to avoid blocking the pores as this too will cause the bacteria to multiply under the skin.
In this case it appears to have been caused by the horse getting too hot and sweating under rugs - as in sweat scald. In addition to the production of moisture, when the body sweats it releases salt, salt dries the skin and the body counteracts this by producing oil. Oil blocks the pores causing the bacteria to breed under the skin. It does not seem sensible therefore to apply saline.

I would not be giving advise if I didn't know "what I was on about".

The most important things here are to keep dry and avoid oil based applications or anything which may encourage oil production AND consult a vet .
 
lamlyn 2012 I meant the mother's friends throwing diagnoses around, I certainly did not mean to offend you, the reference to people not knowing what they were on about was the mother's friends.
 
So vet came today, he seemed pretty stumped. Reckons she's got folliculitis and thinks the round spots with the hole in (like in the photo i posted previously) could be some sort of secondary infection. He wasn't sure if the spots on her side were related to the wither abscess or not but was worried that it wasn't healing properly as although it looks ok, it's still very sore. He suggested trying a steroid injection, an antibiotic injection and a further 5 day course of oral antibiotics. If no improvement then they will do tests etc.

He also recommended that I use this antbiotic/antifungal wash (apparently for dogs, but ok for horses - cant remember the name) but he didn't have any to give me. So annoyingly I might have to go all the way to their practice to get it (will be over an hour drive!!)

On a side note, I got him to do her teeth. He reckons poor pony has never had them done!! (She's 5) So feeling very guilty that I haven't had them done sooner :(
 
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