Advice please

[Ahislop]

Hi guys,

looking for any advice please , honestly don’t know what else to do.

I bought my 16.2 Irish sports horse last year. He has been used as working hunter ages 6-8 then turned out in a field for 3 years while owner had a baby and then I bought him off a couple who used him as a happy hacker.
He passed a 5 stage vetting with the view I would compete BE 90 on him. He had a slightly dipped back but specifically asked the vet to check it but was told no major issue and top line would be built with work.

I am having ALOT of trouble with the canter, there is no impulsion, no matter how much I ask for more forward there is so much resistance. Head flies up and he is so hollow, Tap with the whip for more hind end and he kicks out. Even in a field he is reluctant to go forward within the gate , he does not engage his hind end. This is now becoming a major issue when jumping as he is just basically cantering over them, completely hollow and landing on them ( I do grid work once a week but he isn’t improving so can’t make it difficult) he can’t even really balance himself cantering over poles but walk and trot are no issue

he is worked 6 times a week. Twice a week is hacking up and down hills varying distances from 5miles -18miles.
Two times a week is schooling , normally a combination of grid work and flat and once a week is interval training on the gallops
the other once is lunging/ long reining
This has been the case for the last 6 months

I have had a physio look at him and she can’t find anything wrong but asked for more pole work so that has been encorporated twice a week 20mins a day, this has been the case for the last 4 months

I have had a vet that can’t see any thing obviously wrong with him. His saddle is checked every 6 months , he has had his teeth checked, had a bit lady out. I have two instructors , a very good classical dressage coach and an eventer who know their stuff. They say they can’t see anything physically wrong with him apart from lack of engagement.

we tried giving him a month off last September, then brought him back into work for a month using long reining and lunging for one month then hacking for a month but

his abdominal muscles have came on leaps and bounds since I have him , so has muscle elsewhere , everywhere apart from the top line.

also when I tried him I never had any of these issues

I honestly don’t know what else I can try. He is a lovely natured horse and I do feel it is more pain related but I really do not want to sell him but I am also not a ATM! Any advice I would take at the minute!

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

I think you must be right and it’s pain somewhere..my daughters mare is very sway backed but jumps beautifully, moves and carries herself correctly in flatwork and is very forward. She does have physio occasionally and we do sternum rubs etc to lift her abdomen and she does have topline. I know I haven’t given any help as such...but something is amiss if he wasn’t like this when you tried him. Have you administered pain relief and ridden? Does the reluctant hollowed behaviour disappear?

 

[maya2008]

Lameness workup and pssm test is what I would do. Are you insured?

 

[AmyMay]

He’s also rather tubby, which could be a contributing factor.

 

[TPO]

Going on that he's had a vet work up, seen by physios, teeth, saddle and bit check and everything is 100%...

How does he move without tack on lunge/longreins and how does he move with tack but no rider on lunge/longrein?

Could you get your trainers to ride him? Does he go differently for them? Without wanting to sound harsh if engagement when ridden is the issue it could be rider related. I had a horse I thought I was using a lot of leg on, trainer got on and he totally changed the way the horse went. I needed to use 10x the leg that I had been using. Getting back on after thr trainer I could feel what I was to achieve (before losing it again!) and rode in a way that felt alien to me (because it was different/new) but it worked. I had similar issue as bought horse in poor condition with no muscling at all and he had a massive shark fin wither. Got him I to a good condition but was struggling a bit with the muscles over his back despite hills and poles. Using leg to get him truly forward was a game changer.

What's his hoof balance like? It's easy to become blind to certain things when we.see.it every day.

What's his management regime i.e. is he out 24/7, part stables etc?

What is he fed? What's the grass like on his grazing?

Do you have access to hills?

 

[shortstuff99]

Has he been checked for ulcers?

 

[Polos Mum]

Adding up all the years he's 15 ish now ? I'd bet pain too somewhere. When did this start or has it come on gradually and is getting worse.

Maybe a bute trial (it's cheap) and certainly get any excess weight off - it won't help any joint / arthritis / breathing issues.

He's never been an eventer or done much jumping so at his age and with niggles I might be inclined to find him a nice happy hacking home and move on.

I am suspicious by nature !! so a nice, well moving sound horse is rarely given 3 years in the field and then sold for hacking. I've had kids and had people trip over themselves to ride for me at mine while I couldn't. When they have had time off they've come back to the job they were doing before no problem.
I'd bet this is an old something structural somewhere that he's got used to coping with - which is why he's not hopping.

 

[Ahislop]

Lameness workup and pssm test is what I would do. Are you insured?

Yeah think this is my next port of call , I have had a lameness check up on him and vet said everything was as it seems, but think I’ll go with the bute trial next , see if we can try find the pain , yes I’m insured

 

[Ahislop]

Going on that he's had a vet work up, seen by physios, teeth, saddle and bit check and everything is 100%...

How does he move without tack on lunge/longreins and how does he move with tack but no rider on lunge/longrein?

Could you get your trainers to ride him? Does he go differently for them? Without wanting to sound harsh if engagement when ridden is the issue it could be rider related. I had a horse I thought I was using a lot of leg on, trainer got on and he totally changed the way the horse went. I needed to use 10x the leg that I had been using. Getting back on after thr trainer I could feel what I was to achieve (before losing it again!) and rode in a way that felt alien to me (because it was different/new) but it worked. I had similar issue as bought horse in poor condition with no muscling at all and he had a massive shark fin wither. Got him I to a good condition but was struggling a bit with the muscles over his back despite hills and poles. Using leg to get him truly forward was a game changer.

What's his hoof balance like? It's easy to become blind to certain things when we.see.it every day.

What's his management regime i.e. is he out 24/7, part stables etc?

What is he fed? What's the grass like on his grazing?

Do you have access to hills?

Thank you for your reply he moves well on the lunge apart from the canter and same when he is being loose schooled, fine in walk and trot and then canter is awful

Honestly no offence taken , yeah I’ve had three people ride him who are very capable and all agree there is just a reluctance to move forward , he does it but you must apply a lot of leg , whip and spurs and they say it’s not normal

he has had issues with his feet but all sorted now , he had heart bars on but now off and working well and no lameness

he is stabled in the winter and out 24:7 in the summer , was advised by vet and physio to keep him out to try and get him grazing and stretching , and I have noticed a difference , grass is quite good where we are but vet has actually said he is perfect wait and wouldn’t want him losing anymore ( the picture makes him look a bit fat )

he does loads of hill work , walk trot and canter, we have lots hills where we are.
He is on a balancer And biotin

 

[Ahislop]

Adding up all the years he's 15 ish now ? I'd bet pain too somewhere. When did this start or has it come on gradually and is getting worse.

Maybe a bute trial (it's cheap) and certainly get any excess weight off - it won't help any joint / arthritis / breathing issues.

He's never been an eventer or done much jumping so at his age and with niggles I might be inclined to find him a nice happy hacking home and move on.

I am suspicious by nature !! so a nice, well moving sound horse is rarely given 3 years in the field and then sold for hacking. I've had kids and had people trip over themselves to ride for me at mine while I couldn't. When they have had time off they've come back to the job they were doing before no problem.
I'd bet this is an old something structural somewhere that he's got used to coping with - which is why he's not hopping.

I honestly am in total agreement with you ! He has just turned 12, when he done working Hunter he was doing 90cm course and saw videos and he managed fine. I have taken him xc and he is doing 90cm but I couldn’t compete BE as no way I could show Juno with the canter and dressage falls apart in canter.
I think I will try the bute trial and try and isolate where the pain is coming from , if it’s fixable I will go through insurance but I may make the horrible decision to sell

 

[TheMule]

If the canter goes but they’re sound in trot (or, more likely, bilateral) I tend to suspect sacroiliac. Certainly if he's insured you need to get a full work up done

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I would agree with your gut that there is likely to be pain somewhere, but it might also be worth trying him in a few other saddles just in case your current saddle is blocking him in some way. It could also be worth looking into getting an equicore (or similar). My trainer does a lot of rehab work and swears by them for helping with engagement and building the right muscles.

 

[lamlyn2012]

I would consider having the back xrayd for possible kissing spine.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

It does sound like it could be saddle if it's too tight most horses won't go forward properly, the picture you have posted isn't very clear can you post a better one showing his back profile, if it's too narrow they often get dips either side of the wither behind the shoulder.

Failing that I would have a lack of performance vet work up.

 

[StowfordPress]

Not the same but similar enough to be worth mentioning, my mare was an absolute a** for months, wasn’t like her at all and we tried every pain route we could think of and found nothing, got so close to giving up when it turned out she’d trapped a nerve in her hindquarters (Can’t Remember technical terms sorry I was 14 at the time). Physio managed to move it back and she was back to normal a couple months later, I think she still had it in her head that things would hurt hence the time taken to be herself again. Might be worth trying another osteopath or two and seeing if any of them find something different.