Advice prior to shoeing - leg twisting

[emfen1305]

I took some videos of Toby today (albeit bad ones due to the gale force winds and hail stones!) of the way he lands and how he moves behind so I could slow them down. I wanted to take them as the vet, farrier and physio are all due on Thursday so wanted to show them. We are almost 6 weeks post PSD surgery but he is still twisting his hinds when pushing off with the left one worse (as it has always been). He does have mild changes in both hocks and his hock was blocked when he went for diagnostics and he didn't block to it so don't think they are causing him pain but wondering whether this is normal for him or due to another issue. We think there is an issue with his SI as he is still standing awkwardly (I also appreciate 6 weeks after surgery is not long) but these are all the same things as pre-surgery so it seems the surgery has fixed the lameness (worse in his right) and his hock movement/flexion has increased but some of the older issues are still there.

Another reason for taking the videos was for a comparison, he is being shod behind so we can take the toe back and support the heel as the low heel is not helping the issues but I have also read that shoes can actually cause further issues so I have taken the videos now so I can take them again when he is shod. He looks to be landing well behind - I know toe first is not great and he is not doing that, I also know sliding is not good and he looks to place his foot rather than it slide - is this right?

I have a list of questions to ask all of the experts on Thurs but as ever, HHO is a fountain of experience and knowledge so wanted to upload the videos here for some advice too!

Sorry if the videos are no good!

https://youtu.be/dbUuwFJFgBw
https://youtu.be/UmvBk3aEOQc
https://youtu.be/C8flEtptsWg

 

[Casey76]

I haven’t watched the vids (sorry) as my internet is so slow, but to answer your question; it is perfectly normal to have *some* ‘slide’ when the foot hits the floor. In shod horses it tends to be even more, as the metal shoes reduce the friction between foot and the surface (especially on something like tarmac)

 

[ihatework]

If I were looking at the side on videos completely ‘fresh’ there wouldn’t be much immediately jumping out at me. On really close examination maybe a small difference in hock flexion and stride between L & R but to be honest most horses would show that.

From the hind view I can see what you mean. But I don’t think you can expect miracles - the horse actually has quite poor hind limb confo and it doesn’t surprise me you are having soundness issues. He will need ongoing close management in riding/training and shoeing to keep him working comfortably.

 

[emfen1305]

I haven’t watched the vids (sorry) as my internet is so slow, but to answer your question; it is perfectly normal to have *some* ‘slide’ when the foot hits the floor. In shod horses it tends to be even more, as the metal shoes reduce the friction between foot and the surface (especially on something like tarmac)

The videos are nothing exciting, don't think anyone will be hiring me and my go pro for gait analysis any time soon haha!

Thanks for clearing that up - I have always read conflicting things about that! It'll be interesting to revideo them once the shoes go on to see if he moves differently.

 

[emfen1305]

If I were looking at the side on videos completely ‘fresh’ there wouldn’t be much immediately jumping out at me. On really close examination maybe a small difference in hock flexion and stride between L & R but to be honest most horses would show that.

From the hind view I can see what you mean. But I don’t think you can expect miracles - the horse actually has quite poor hind limb confo and it doesn’t surprise me you are having soundness issues. He will need ongoing close management in riding/training and shoeing to keep him working comfortably.

Thanks for taking a look, I didn't think there would be a miracle cure for it just wondering if it's a typical sign for something I should be asking the vet/physio/farrier about. I am worried that due to his confo there will be nothing I can do to keep him comfortable but trying not to get too ahead of myself and be too dramatic about it all! He's only 10

 

[tallyho!]

It looks like he is placing his foot correctly behind, he is landing heel first and I wouldn't want to compromise that while he continues healing... it indicates to me that he is using the PSL well and it is stretching to it's full length as he steps under and down. He isn't straight behind conformationally from the video from behind so there will always be a little bit of "swing" but that is the compensation. There is the tiniest twist but I've seen a lot worse and it will be even worse with shoes than without. His heels don't look low, just under-developed, and if I paused it, the toes are too long but the heels could be wider, which they will get in time and he will build a better shock absorber in the digital cushion which will only help the landing even more.

If you want good comparisons of leg/hoof landing videos have a look at rockley farm. They are informative whichever way you decide to go.

 

[emfen1305]

It looks like he is placing his foot correctly behind, he is landing heel first and I wouldn't want to compromise that while he continues healing... it indicates to me that he is using the PSL well and it is stretching to it's full length as he steps under and down. He isn't straight behind conformationally from the video from behind so there will always be a little bit of "swing" but that is the compensation. There is the tiniest twist but I've seen a lot worse and it will be even worse with shoes than without. His heels don't look low, just under-developed, and if I paused it, the toes are too long but the heels could be wider, which they will get in time and he will build a better shock absorber in the digital cushion which will only help the landing even more.

If you want good comparisons of leg/hoof landing videos have a look at rockley farm. They are informative whichever way you decide to go.

This is really helpful thank you - I am a member of the barefoot page on Facebook but they don't like any mention of shoes whatsoever so thought I'd try here instead. He has been barefoot behind since May 2015 and his heels are just not getting any better hence why we are reverting to shoeing to see if it helps as feel like we have run out of options barefoot now. He needs to do rehab work to build himself back up after the surgery and other issues with the idea that if we can get him nice and strong and correct as can be behind then hopefully his heels will catch up but at the moment his back feet are adding extra pressure and strain which will go against the rehabbing hence we are trying shoeing to see if we can help this. My plan is to take them off again if I can't see any difference (good or bad) in a few shoeings.

Feel like I am fighting a losing battle, he is 6 weeks post surgery and looks sound and he's quite happily marching out for his walks but I fear this won't last until we get to the bottom of the other issues. I'll have a look at the page, I think one of their videos is where I got the idea in the first place.

 

[tallyho!]

This is really helpful thank you - I am a member of the barefoot page on Facebook but they don't like any mention of shoes whatsoever so thought I'd try here instead. He has been barefoot behind since May 2015 and his heels are just not getting any better hence why we are reverting to shoeing to see if it helps as feel like we have run out of options barefoot now. He needs to do rehab work to build himself back up after the surgery and other issues with the idea that if we can get him nice and strong and correct as can be behind then hopefully his heels will catch up but at the moment his back feet are adding extra pressure and strain which will go against the rehabbing hence we are trying shoeing to see if we can help this. My plan is to take them off again if I can't see any difference (good or bad) in a few shoeings.

Feel like I am fighting a losing battle, he is 6 weeks post surgery and looks sound and he's quite happily marching out for his walks but I fear this won't last until we get to the bottom of the other issues. I'll have a look at the page, I think one of their videos is where I got the idea in the first place.

Just a question that occured to me... has the farrier always left the toes that long? He has a long hind foot if you know what I mean.

It is a long rehab with tendons and it's wearing, I feel your pain fingers crossed there's light at the end of the tunnel.

p.s. You shouldn't be made to feel like you can't mention shoes though on a bf page... I disagree with that because shoes can be useful in the right patient should you need it and if stability in the hoof is what you're looking for during rehab. My own EP would never discount shoes and neither would I.

 

[emfen1305]

Just a question that occured to me... has the farrier always left the toes that long? He has a long hind foot if you know what I mean.

It is a long rehab with tendons and it's wearing, I feel your pain fingers crossed there's light at the end of the tunnel.

p.s. You shouldn't be made to feel like you can't mention shoes though on a bf page... I disagree with that because shoes can be useful in the right patient should you need it and if stability in the hoof is what you're looking for during rehab. My own EP would never discount shoes and neither would I.

Sorry I should had said - no he has always taken them back as far as he could but were always doing it without x-rays so we know now there is a little more that can come off if we add the shoes. I did have a trimmer for a while and they were the same when she did them so have gone back to the farrier. We are almost 9 weeks since our last trim due to the surgery hence why they look longer than usual at the moment

Yes fingers crossed too, selfishly I just really miss riding and having fun, he is my only horse and feels like for the last 6 months we have both been miserable and I have spent £££s on him trying to keep him right before he went lame.

I

 

[tallyho!]

Sorry I should had said - no he has always taken them back as far as he could but were always doing it without x-rays so we know now there is a little more that can come off if we add the shoes. I did have a trimmer for a while and they were the same when she did them so have gone back to the farrier. We are almost 9 weeks since our last trim due to the surgery hence why they look longer than usual at the moment

Yes fingers crossed too, selfishly I just really miss riding and having fun, he is my only horse and feels like for the last 6 months we have both been miserable and I have spent £££s on him trying to keep him right before he went lame.

I

Totally understand! hope everything goes really well for you