Advice RE friends youngster

[jeeve]

Please don't Parelli him, unless your friend wants her equine relationship to be based entirely on domination it is not the way to go.

Pat Parelli is not a good horseman, I wouldn't let him near any horse of mine let alone a youngster. The idea of him backing any horse makes me cringe, what ever happened to the tradition of sticking a lightweight on for the formative training? I pity the poor youngster's backs from RTTH and IAW, he isn't a small man, and isn't even skinny.




I note the above comment - my youngster was 5 years old when Pat backed him and 16 hh - I don't think Pat's weight was an issue. When you have started sverel hundred horses and get the results that Pat has got- like him or not - and I do not particularly like him - you have to admit he is a good horseman. Natural horsemanship is nothing about domination - it is about partnership. There is a positive spin for Pat and a negative one - I think the truth lies in the middle.

 

[muffinino]

Natural Horsemanship is about the use of phases, so you ask lightly,and then increase the ask, there are 4 phases, once you get a response even the slightest try, you stop and start again after a relevant pause with the lightest phase. I can assure you there is nothing cruel or heavy handed about this. Horses understand it, apparently quicker than most of their two legged friends, and it produces super light reponsive horses.


I am not a Parelli fanatic or NH fanatic, but I do get tired of people who have not the slightest idea of how it works criticising it. It is obvious from your comments that you do not have any interest in it or understanding of it, and that is okay. It might not be what you want to do fair, enough just keep doing what you are doing if it works for you.

Or in other words, what the rest of us seem to be doing but with good marketing. I was taught 'phases' 17 years ago by a really good instructor who would have nothing to do with NH: ask politely, ask firmly, then tell them to get on with it.

I only have experience of NH and Parelli through comments made on here and watching their programmes and videos and I will admit that I think a lot of it is what many people do, well packaged. When you see videos of the sainted Linda smacking horses around the head with a metal clip and her followers advising the same to people asking for help with a youngster, it is difficult to *want* to know how it works.

Anyhoo, I've just bought a yearling who has been taught no manners, although he isn't bolshy, and have this week been teaching him how to back up, move over etc. I simply placed my hand on his nose just above the nostrils, put the fingers of my other hand all in a line, did gentle then firm pushes on his nose whilst prodding lightly in his chest and saying back each time. He quickly learnt what I wanted.
With a bolshy youngster, I would do the same but with a headcollar on, maybe with 2 people if needed, until he took a step back then praise. If he as very bad, I would use a stick to tap his cannons lightly, then stop once he moved. This is actually how we got my youngster into his new stable when he was too stubborn to move on (hasn't been taught to lead, either), but with his back feet and a broom lol. It worked a treat.

ETA: At no point did we hit the youngster with the broom, simply touched the heels to get him moving forwards. I have held my hands up in front of his face to stop him barging me when he was excited, but I have not smacked him in the face with a clip to teach him to back up and would take said clip to any person I saw doing so.

 

[muffinino]

Originally Posted by TGM
What a horrible way to teach a young horse to back up. Much kinder and more effective to teach them with a hand or finger on the chest along with a voice command.

Yes i agree. You shouldnt have to hit the horse with a clip, its just not nessesary. All you have to do is to get the horse to move away from pressure. you apply pressure to the nose, the horse should respond by moving away from the pressure. Same if u use pressure on the chest. Another thing i like to teach a youngster is to back away from body language, without having to touch the horseRaising your arms and walking firmly toward the horses head, he should realise u are about to bump into him and move away. If not, just walk into him until he moves out of the way. This is how a lead mare will treat him. As soon as you say move, he should. You want him to stay in his space, and not intrude on yours, this will let him know that you are boss and not something to be run over.


I missed this comment - I have to have a giggle to myself, there you are commenting on PNH methods, and next you are espousing them, this is exactly what he teaches, 1. having the horse move off pressure, 2. having the horse move with body language, 3. having the horse respect your space.

Like I say good horsemansip is good horsemanship, whether you want to call it natural horsemanship or something else. You and Pay would probably be best buddies if you met.

But that's the point, I suppose, a lot of it is not PNH methods, as such, just traditional methods sprinkled with show glitter. Apart from smacking the horse with metal clips, obviously, that's just LP.

 

[Queenbee]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaspejoo
To be honest, i think you are being a bit blind sighted in this comment. You need to think of it this way...horses learn by negative reinforcement

So because I don't agree with your opinion, I am 'blind-sighted'! LOL! I am familiar with the concepts of operant conditioning and I know that both negative AND positive reinforcement are effective in animal learning.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jaspejoo
...human's like to think they learn by positive reinforcement, because we "praise" with release of reins etc, but really the horse learns to perform a certain movement by moving in such a way to relive itself from negative pressure.


Quote TGM:
I am quite aware of the true concept of positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement occurs when an animal receives a favourable outcome when a certain behaviour is performed. Classically, this tends to be a food reward - an example of this would be a horse receiving food when being caught in the field. However, for some horses a wither scratch or a soothing voice can be their reward. So it is possible to use proper positive reinforcement effectively in training, although negative reinforcement is used as well.

I am not opposed to negative reinforcement at all, however, it is important the the type of negative reinforcement used is fair and humane, and that is my issue with the technique described above. I do not feel that banging a metal clip on the sides of the horse's face (which is a bony and vulnerable area) is humane.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaspejoo
you often dont need to be particularly harsh, no more than a smack on the bum if a horse refuses a fence etc(which is common practice)

Quote TGM:
Firstly, I would never train a young horse to jump by smacking its bum, and by the same standard, I wouldn't condone teaching a horse to back, by bashing its face. A smack on the bum is only acceptable when a trained horse is deliberately disobedient in refusing a jump. In addition, the bottom is a well-padded part of the body, and totally different to the bony and vulnerable face area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaspejoo
you don't have to pee him off by poking him in the chest with your finger when you want him to back up....you can simply wiggle your finger. And also, how does poking him in the chest teach him respect of your personal space?

Quote TGM:
This shows that you have not read my post properly - the use of a hand or finger on the chest is the INITIAL cue whilst teaching the movement. Once the horse understands that he is required to go backwards the use of the hand on the chest can be phased out and just a verbal cue used (or whatever other cue you wish). I prefer a verbal cue because it can be used even if you have your arms full of rugs, haynets etc.



TGM: I applaud you, I couldn't have put it better myself

Jaspejoo: Your post actually made my stomach turn over, I felt physically sick reading how 'blind sighted' you are. Just one point for you to ponder: which is best in the initial stages of teaching a horse to back off and respect your space: peeing him off by poking him in the chest with a finger or whacking the cr ap out of his face.

Many people used to have a bit of a joke about how people brainwashed and indoctrinated people to believe that the fox actually enjoyed being chased in a hunt, I see no difference in your attitude. That that form of brutality could ever be considered the best way to treat a horse really is indicative of indoctrination.

I have never had to smack my mare in the face and would smack the cr ap out of anyone who tried it with her. I have however used pressure and release, slowly decreasing the pressure to a point where I can order her back by voice.

You and your PP twits have not invented the sodding wheel, it was around long before, you have merely re-invented it covered with spikes coated in battery acid.

 

[team barney]

Please don't Parelli him, unless your friend wants her equine relationship to be based entirely on domination it is not the way to go.

Pat Parelli is not a good horseman, I wouldn't let him near any horse of mine let alone a youngster. The idea of him backing any horse makes me cringe, what ever happened to the tradition of sticking a lightweight on for the formative training? I pity the poor youngster's backs from RTTH and IAW, he isn't a small man, and isn't even skinny.




I note the above comment - my youngster was 5 years old when Pat backed him and 16 hh - I don't think Pat's weight was an issue. When you have started sverel hundred horses and get the results that Pat has got- like him or not - and I do not particularly like him - you have to admit he is a good horseman. Natural horsemanship is nothing about domination - it is about partnership. There is a positive spin for Pat and a negative one - I think the truth lies in the middle.

The youngster from In a Whisper was 2 yrs

The youngster from Road to the Horse was 3 yrs

Both looked an absolute maximum of 15hh, and Parelli is far to heavy for them.

I don't go by numbers I go by results and Parellied horses are not happy horses, I have met enough of them to know that, they are lethargic, disinterested and no longer think for themselves.

The marketing states that Parelli is about a Partnership the reality is very different as anybody who has reads the books and watched the DVD's (without drinking the obligatory Kool-aid) would attest. No genuinely natural relationship is based on the repeated striking of your horse with ropes and sticks. I know Parelli claim you aren't hitting your horse he is walking into the rope/carrot stick (as stated on DVD level 1) but this simply isn't the case you are responsable for the emotional and physical abuse the animal is suffering in the name of Parelli.

It is a cruel and outdated training regime, whose principles are based on the stoneage training systems.

 

[Queenbee]

A friend at the yard got her pony when he was a foal he is now 2

She has only come to the yard recently and i have gradually seen her loose her confidence with him as he is becoming bargey and bitey and she wants to do showing but its impossible at the moment because he being a brat.

I put my dually halter on him today (which to be fair is a little big for the poor chap) and starting just teaching him about stepping out of my space and he starting to get it (think he will be a quick learner)
However he is very reluctant to back up with any of the usual aids i use and with me using the pressure on the dually.
And is also very lazy in walk (not great for showing)

Any tips if getting him to back up and to keep up with the handler when being led?? Thank you

Mine is behaving the same, he has just turned 2, his is gelded and 15.2 od stoopid!!! he is being a git when I poo pick because he has never had me doing that in his field before and can't quite work out if he is angry at me for being in there or wants to play with the new toy, when he gets impatient he strikes out with his front legs and he can be bolshy to lead and when he gets bored he can nip too. If you pick a fight with him, you lose in the sense that he is so thick skinned he just takes it and all that happens is you get tired. He has only been at the livery yard 10 days so I am letting him take it in his own time, he has my mare to gain courage from, he has been in the stables on his own, and I can now bring her in and ride her out with him staying in the field behind the electric fence, in addition his field butts onto the sand school, I have to keep reminding myself to allow him time, he has never been at a yard before, only privately. To lead him I just get a normal headcollar and then clip the leadrope to the cheek piece bit, thread it through the inside, through his mouth and out the other cheek piece, leading him that way. It works a treat, he behaves, he doesn't strike, I have control and srazy as it sounds he finds it easier to focus on listening to me and what i ask him to do. In addition, because he is such a lump I found it easier to teach him to move away from pressure on his flanks before starting to teach him to move back from pressure on his chest. I did at one point use a chiffney for handling because he was fly kicking me and rearing, but I find the rope in his mouth does the trick wonderfully, it is more than just control, it is something for a stupid thickskinned youngster to focus his attitude on. Sometimes ensuring there isn't an issue in the first place is a far better way to deal with things than having to correct the fault

 

[jeeve]

muffino - Pat is the first to say he did not invent these methods, that he has repackaged old known and time honoured methods, no argument with you there. And yes there are heaps of horse people out there that no and use these old methods - for those lucky to have learnt form good horsemen/ women.

Team Barney - I have to say that you are wrong, my horse and I have the most amazing partnership, he has absolute trust in me and even if he is unsure of something, he will give it a go if I ask him. The ground work and liberty work established this relationship.

I even have been walking him along a busy road, where I dropped his lead rope (on at least two occasions- yes I am clumsy), and the first time there was heaps of traffic, another horse galloping around inside a paddock, and he had shied at the other horse which is whey I dropped the rope, he just stood and waited for me in the middle of the road for me to catch up to him with alll these cars piling up. The second occasion we were trotting back to home, me on foot and I dropped the lead, I thought he would bolt for home, it was within sight, and I stopped and said a few words to myself, he stopped about a length later, turned around and came back and said what ? why have we stopped?. Again just waited for me.

He was claustrophobic and threw himslf down in a panic on floats, I had him to the point where he would load himself at the trot, at liberty and stand on the float, without being tied up, without the ramp or gate closed, while I went inside made a cup of tea and came back out, he would be looking for me over his shoulder every now and then waiting for me to come back.

He sees my car coming down the road, he immediately stops grazing and comes racing up to see me.

He will follow me around the paddock at a walk, trot, canter, I can just point at a jump at liberty, while he is unsaddled/bridled and he will jump it, turn around jump it again on the way back to me. I can lunge him at liberty with just body language cues.

He is one of the happiest horses alive.

 

[AengusOg]

Horses instinctively lean into pressure, and must be taught to yield to it.

There is no such thing as a ‘harsh halter’…only harsh hands.

Pressure and resistance go hand in hand. Too much pressure causes resistance. The trick is to use only enough pressure to encourage the horse to respond, without causing it to resist. Even if the horse gives an incorrect response, the pressure must be released so that the horse does not resist, and is encouraged to try again when the same cue is given. Sooner or later, if the cue is repeated, and the horse is not forced to resist, he will get it right. He can then be spoken to in encouraging tones so that he can learn that he gave the correct response to that particular cue. Thereafter, when that cue is used, he will give the correct, learned response to it.

Using phases to train young/green horses to back up only serves to teach them that if they don't understand what is being asked of them, the handler will get rough. Horses which fail to respond correctly to the first phase are not given another chance, with the same cue, to offer something which may, this time, be correct. Instead they are subjected to the next phase, which is a different cue altogether.

As the phases are introduced, the horse becomes more confused and fearful. In effect it is being bullied into submission, rather than allowed to work out what is required by the cue. It eventually throws its head up and either runs through the pressure/over the handler, or it hollows its back and shies away.

Horses are much easier to back up if their head is lowered and their back raised, not hollowed. Firm, but gentle pressure on the face, or on the chest of a horse is much kinder and effective in teaching him to back up than is a flailing rope.

 

[AengusOg]

turned around and came back and said what ? why have we stopped?.
.

He talks!!!??

 

[jeeve]

Aegnus od - Yes he talks - they all do

Re phases - phases are giving the horse a chance - they should be fair, and understandable, you cannot just walk up and start hitting a horse. But horses use phases in their verbal and non verbal communication all the time, they understand it and it makes sense to them.

You can use extremely little pressure and use phases, most aids are delivered in phases, think leg aids, you might give a little squeeze, if no reaction, a firmer squeeze, still nothing, a tap with the stick. Just a ne example but it is the same with every ask you make of a horse, you ask lightly, as light as you ant your horse to be but you have to be prepared to back it up, or they will not take note of you.

Phases are not invented by Parelli, they are just a normal communication tool used by horseman every where.

 

[jeeve]

Oh and using pressure on chest or any part of horses body to ask it to move is a good way to teach horse, and by the way one of the things taught by most horseman, including Pat. Don't just rely on the halter, the horse should move off your pressure no matter where you apply it, he just does not know what you want yet.

 

[AengusOg]

But horses use phases in their verbal and non verbal communication all the time, they understand it and it makes sense to them..

I don't think they do. I find that horses understand each other very well, and that their responses to signals and pressure from others are very definite. For example...I don't see a high ranking horse throwing its head, then flattening its ears, then charging, then wheeling to kick a lesser member of the herd. Their language is far more succinct.

In any case, there are huge differences between horses in a herd situation, and a horse in a training situation with a human. Horses cannot possibly perceive humans as horses. As valuable as an understanding of their behaviour can be, I think it has little bearing on their training. An understanding of how horses instinctively react to pressure is much more valuable as a training aid, in my opinion.

You can use extremely little pressure and use phases, most aids are delivered in phases, think leg aids, you might give a little squeeze, if no reaction, a firmer squeeze, still nothing, a tap with the stick. Just a ne example but it is the same with every ask you make of a horse, you ask lightly, as light as you ant your horse to be but you have to be prepared to back it up, or they will not take note of you..

I have found that young horses react very well, in training, to light pressure. Horses which have been spoiled, and need to be retrained, are different and may require much firmer handling, but the aim is always to refine the cues to get the best response from the least pressure.

I can't agree with using increasingly forceful cues, as in the phases, as that tends to damage trust, when the aim is to build trust and encourage the horse to try.

Here is an example of what I mean...I was asked to help a child with her pony, which would not stand quietly, when tied up, to be groomed. The child had been stood on, knocked about, and threatened by tail-swishing and flattened ears. The previous owners had allowed this pony to walk all over them for several years, in the belief that to train him out of the behaviour would break his spirit and spoil him for competition. They had put up with his antics, or turned him out when he misbehaved.

I tied the pony up and he immediately started swinging his quarters around, getting agitated, and would not stand still. He tried to lean on me if I approached, and swished his tail if I persisted in my approach of him. I started by firmly pushing my straight fingers against his body, just behind his ribs. He had obviously never been taught to yield to pressure, as he immediately leaned heavily into the pressure from my hand. I kept the hand there, with constant pressure against his weight, until he moved away, at which point I stepped away from him and praised him.

He came round again immediately, and I met him by stepping in and applying the hand pressure exactly as before, with the same result, except this time he yielded sooner than he had before. Immediately he yielded, I stepped away and praised him as before. This went on for about five minutes, during which time I carried on a conversation with the owners. Each time he came round with his quarters, I met him in the space I was now claiming was mine.

Within a few more minutes I was just having to extend my arm toward him as he moved toward me, and that was enough to stop him coming as far round as he had been. As he learned to yield to the outstretched hand, without actual contact, I stepped away and praised. He was now very aware of my intentions, and was paying attention to my movements and attitudes.

I was watching him very closely too, and was now pre-empting his movement toward me by stepping in toward his quarters immediately I detected any intention on his part to come round. I could now simply step in toward him and that was now enough to prevent him moving toward me. As soon as he moved away, or stopped coming round, I stepped away and praised him. It quickly came to the point where the pony was standing quietly, relaxed.

I then picked up the dandy brush and started to groom him, which he enjoyed.

A few more minutes had him reacting similarly to the child, and since then he has become a pony who stands nicely when tied, and allows his little owner to groom and fuss over him. Since then he has become more enjoyable to ride and easier to load into a trailer.

I used phases with that pony but, crucially, I used very firm pressure first and set about refining the cues from there. The pony would have stepped all over me if I had walked into that space initially, because he would have had no idea what I wanted of him. I could have twirled a rope at him, but would have had to got increasingly animated and may have had make contact with it to get him to move away. In my opinion that would have been unacceptable simply because I would not have given him a fair chance to understand what I was asking him to do.

I believe that using phases which become increasingly severe are counter-productive to trust-building and to the horse's ability to learn. That method allows the horse to become confused and resistant, and the more resistant the horse becomes, the more pressure is applied in the next phase. This creates even more resistance and the handler is forced to use increasing pressure each time to effectively force the horse to comply. Force and horse training cannot produce a willingly compliant horse who trusts his handler.

Phases are not invented by Parelli, they are just a normal communication tool used by horseman every where.

Of course that is true, but Parelli sem to be the only ones who get it the wrong way round.

 

[jeeve]

Aegnusod - In the end we may just have to agree to disagree, about Pat . But that's ok.

 

[Jennyharvey]

Originally Posted by TGM
What a horrible way to teach a young horse to back up. Much kinder and more effective to teach them with a hand or finger on the chest along with a voice command.

Yes i agree. You shouldnt have to hit the horse with a clip, its just not nessesary. All you have to do is to get the horse to move away from pressure. you apply pressure to the nose, the horse should respond by moving away from the pressure. Same if u use pressure on the chest. Another thing i like to teach a youngster is to back away from body language, without having to touch the horseRaising your arms and walking firmly toward the horses head, he should realise u are about to bump into him and move away. If not, just walk into him until he moves out of the way. This is how a lead mare will treat him. As soon as you say move, he should. You want him to stay in his space, and not intrude on yours, this will let him know that you are boss and not something to be run over.


I missed this comment - I have to have a giggle to myself, there you are commenting on PNH methods, and next you are espousing them, this is exactly what he teaches, 1. having the horse move off pressure, 2. having the horse move with body language, 3. having the horse respect your space.

Like I say good horsemansip is good horsemanship, whether you want to call it natural horsemanship or something else. You and Pay would probably be best buddies if you met.

I am aware that Pat parelli teaches these methods, but they are not his methods. They are pretty universal in horsemanship actually. Ive never done a parelli clinic in my life, and dont intend to because i believe there are better trainers to train with. These sorts of methods that parelli and other trainers use, have been around well before the term 'natural horsemanship' was ever coined.

 

[jeeve]

Jennyharvey
I am aware that Pat parelli teaches these methods, but they are not his methods. They are pretty universal in horsemanship actually. Ive never done a parelli clinic in my life, and dont intend to because i believe there are better trainers to train with. These sorts of methods that parelli and other trainers use, have been around well before the term 'natural horsemanship' was ever coined.
Yesterday 06:02 PM

I agree - Pat himself says that he has learnt these methods off others, and there are many really good horse man/women with really excellent skills. If you are lucky enough to have had people with these skills teach you then you are in a good place. Many people today do not have access to the knowledge that was passed down from older generation, they have to learn from scratch. That is where having talented instructors NH/IH and so on with really good horsemanship skills out there that can be utilised as a resource for those that cannot learn these skills from family and friends.

My son is at TAFE doing a horse course and he has established friendships with 2-3 people in particular that are mentoring him and helping him develop his horsemanship skills. These people are all aware of Parelli, (and are not students or fans of Pat), but while they use the same techniques they have learnt these skills from old timers and so on many many years ago. I am pleased that my son is lucky enough to have people willing to take the time to teach him these skills. (He is learning harness, breaking and riding skills. Harness training is almost a lost skill.) I did not have the same opportunities when I was younger and NH has helped me develop some really essential skills.

 

[letrec_fan]

Oh and using pressure on chest or any part of horses body to ask it to move is a good way to teach horse, and by the way one of the things taught by most horseman, including Pat. Don't just rely on the halter, the horse should move off your pressure no matter where you apply it, he just does not know what you want yet.

Not going to comment on anything else but I just thought it was interesting someone mentioned this. I was reading a book recently and there was a trainer who taught the horse to move away from pressure wherever he applied it - when he eventually got on the horse, it lay down. It was the only way it could move away from the greatest pressure, a persons weight. Interesting how they interpret it really.

 

[Tybellina]

which ever 4 leg is slightly forward when standing apply pulsing pressure on that shoulder, as the diagonal moves back change to the other shoulder. when applying the pressure use the word back, place yourself in front of him so as to block forward momentum.

 

[jaspejoo]

I'd like to add that I wont use this method with my horse...personally, it doesn't agree with him, or me, and i don't condone this "hitting the face", i was only saying one method that there is, which is what the OP asked for. We studied the parelli games at uni within our horse human relationship module, and i just wanted to say a method that has been found to be particuarally useful on cheeky bargy ponies...didn't mean to start any kind of nasty argument....sorry if i caused any kind of offence.
And, i think the tone of my second post has been taken in the wrong manner...i didn't write it in a nasty tone, i was just trying to be informative and explain it properly as i wouldn't want to give the wrong message e.t.c.

I'll just crawl back into my hole now...

 

[jaspejoo]

Disgusting and exactly why i said that NH is golirfied abouse the other day. Jasper Joo the fact you reccomend and partisipate in this awful behavior tells me exactly the sort of person you are, SCUM!

Gee thanks, I don't participate in it, in fact when doing the exercise i refused to do it. i was only stating one method which is what the OP asked for...i feel pretty hurt by this comment. Really not a nice thing to say when you don't even know me.

 

[jeeve]

Just because you differ in opinion does not mean that you need to resort to abuse. This kind of comment is simply inappropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hooligan
Disgusting and exactly why i said that NH is golirfied abouse the other day. Jasper Joo the fact you reccomend and partisipate in this awful behavior tells me exactly the sort of person you are, SCUM!