Advice re vetting

[scats]

I viewed a lovely horse who has a substantial cosmetic scar from an injury 6 months ago on hind leg. No ligaments or tendons involved but skin off to the bone sort of thing. It was a fairly substantial injury. It's left a scar, as you can imagine, but this doesn't worry me at all.

Horse was vetted yesterday. Was concerned about flexion test on that leg, but vet was happy with that, within 2 strides it had trotted away fine. Unfortunately on the lunge, vet picked up on 1/10th lameness on that hind.

We ended the vetting there as vet did not seem positive about it at all, but I've spent the whole night wondering if that 1/10th is simply a result of the lack of activity of the leg due to tight scar tissue rather than something sinister with the leg from the injury. With it being still a relatively new scar, should this have been expected? Horse has been back in work since about May.
I had prepared for the flexion test to cause issues as we might have been unable to flex leg much, but horse coped perfectly with that.

Is it worth me re-vetting this horse or should I walk away? Given my disaster record, I said I would only buy something if it was at least totally sound at vetting, but have I expected too much of a relatively recent injury? :-(

Thoughts appreciated.

 

[AmyMay]

If it's been in work for 2 months then I'd be concerned that the lameness was due to scar tissue and it would possibly never resolve.

I'd walk away.

 

[Red-1]

Oh no, I'm sorry the vetting did not go well.

If you are still considering the horse it is a pity the vetting did not continue, as there could be something else wrong with the horse (heart/eyes etc) not yet discovered.

If the lameness was just after the flexion test then I would perhaps be less worried. But, it was not then, it was when lunged. The horse is lame. Lame when worked. Not good if you are actually intending to work the horse at home.

In fact, the vet was so put out by the lameness that the vetting was stopped at this point (does that mean a cheaper vetting as it was stopped?).

So, the horse is lame, the vetting was stopped, something else could also be wrong.

If you loved the horse and it was now reduced to peanuts as it is lame, and it was already doing everything you want it to, and you would be prepared to PTS after a very short time, or indeed keep into retirement, then you could enjoy whatever time you could have with the horse. There are an awful lot of ifs though, don't think I would.

If the horse was still for sale in a few months I *may* ask for a re-visit, but, as you said, you really want to at least start with a sound horse!

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I don't think you were expecting too much as the horse has been back in full work for two months. I'd also walk away I'm afraid.

 

[Goldenstar]

ACPAT trained Physios ( who have all trained on people and worked in the NHS ) should be familiar with wound mobilisation work because it's done a lot on people .
If this lameness is caused by adhered scars then it might be possible to help it .
I know of two horses one my own where low grade lameness caused by scarring was cured by Physio imput and the Physio training the owner what to do daily .
But I am not sure if I would take on the problem ( and you don't know an adhered wound is the problem ) unless you love the horse and buy it for a token amount .

 

[scats]

Thank you everyone.

Red-1- I wasn't really still considering the horse once it showed lameness if I'm honest, although I didn't say anything at that point. The vetting just seemed to end, owner took horse away and vet headed back to car, so I followed vet and he just said that it's hard enough keeping sound horses sound, let alone ones that aren't sound (fair point!)

But since coming home and mulling it over, I've started wondering if we should have carried on. The lunging was about 3 minutes after the flexion test.

 

[ester]

The main issue is that without further work it will be difficult to find out whether that is what is causing the lameness/that it is a scar tissue issue or whether there is something else going on in that leg and the scar is a red herring.

 

[Nasicus]

Little bit weird that the vet just stopped the vetting, I mean, you paid for a full 5 grade vetting, so did he at least finish the 5 stages? Seems a bit presumptuous for the vet to have decided for you...

 

[eggs]

I've bought horses in the past with bad scars but in this case I would be concerned that the horse has done some other harm to himself whilst getting the injury related to the scar leading to the lameness.

 

[be positive]

Little bit weird that the vet just stopped the vetting, I mean, you paid for a full 5 grade vetting, so did he at least finish the 5 stages? Seems a bit presumptuous for the vet to have decided for you...

I find it odd that the vet ended a vetting with a horse only 1/10th lame without even discussing it with you first, I would find it rude if I were either the seller or the buyer that he did not even give you the option to continue or to possibly look at the injury in more detail, having seen a lot of vettings over the years I have never seen one stop unless it has been far more lame than 1/10th or if the seller or buyer wanted to stop immediately.

As for what to do in the circumstances I would probably walk away but I would consider a trial period if the seller were happy for you to do so, you could then get another vet and have a chance to get a physio opinion before vetting, I think 6 months post injury is probably still recent enough to cause a bit of stiffness that is not obvious unless under pressure so could still improve over time.

 

[be positive]

Little bit weird that the vet just stopped the vetting, I mean, you paid for a full 5 grade vetting, so did he at least finish the 5 stages? Seems a bit presumptuous for the vet to have decided for you...

I find it odd that the vet ended a vetting with a horse only 1/10th lame without even discussing it with you first, I would find it rude if I were either the seller or the buyer that he did not even give you the option to continue or to possibly look at the injury in more detail, having seen a lot of vettings over the years I have never seen one stop unless it has been far more lame than 1/10th or if the seller or buyer wanted to stop immediately.

As for what to do in the circumstances I would probably walk away but I would consider a trial period if the seller were happy for you to do so, you could then get another vet and have a chance to get a physio opinion before vetting, I think 6 months post injury is probably still recent enough to cause a bit of stiffness that is not obvious unless under pressure so could still improve over time.

 

[teddypops]

A vet won't carry on with the full 5 stage vetting if the horse is lame, they will then charge you for a 2 stage instead (in my experience). However it's a bit odd just to stop and leave with no discussion!

 

[Goldenstar]

Little bit weird that the vet just stopped the vetting, I mean, you paid for a full 5 grade vetting, so did he at least finish the 5 stages? Seems a bit presumptuous for the vet to have decided for you...

That's what they do when they find something they consider a definite no here's no point in them going on .

 

[Nasicus]

I find it odd that the vet ended a vetting with a horse only 1/10th lame without even discussing it with you first, I would find it rude if I were either the seller or the buyer that he did not even give you the option to continue or to possibly look at the injury in more detail, having seen a lot of vettings over the years I have never seen one stop unless it has been far more lame than 1/10th or if the seller or buyer wanted to stop immediately.

Glad it wasn't just me. To be honest I would have been like 'Err, if you're planning on charging me for a 5 stage, could you please finish it?".

 

[ihatework]

Glad it wasn't just me. To be honest I would have been like 'Err, if you're planning on charging me for a 5 stage, could you please finish it?".

Generally, in my experience, when the vet reaches the point of failure they will ask client if they wish the vetting to continue.

In the case of flexion or lunge circles then this comes at the 2 stage examination. The vets would usually charge less if they don't complete the full 5 stage.

OP, as disappointed as you are, walk away.

 

[AmyMay]

Glad it wasn't just me. To be honest I would have been like 'Err, if you're planning on charging me for a 5 stage, could you please finish it?".

The Op should only be charged for a 2 stage getting. As above, the vetting process will normally be discontinued if an issue is thrown up - such as lameness - which results in an essential fail.

 

[Nasicus]

Ah! I'm glad to hear they wouldn't be charged further!

 

[Goldenstar]

I pay for the vets time doing a vetting so the sooner they stop the better if the horse is not right .

 

[TheHairyOne]

Depending on the reason for sale I may be tempted to go with a long (3month) loan period if you love the horse a lot to try and resolve it, but as above I would think that you would be spending money on it to try and do that.

However, I would walk away for a sale.

 

[scats]

I've never had a horse vetted before, I've always just gone by my own instincts (plus, never paid over 2k for one, but this was over that) so I wasn't entirely sure what would happen next but when owner took horse away and vet headed to the car, it very much seemed to be the done thing that the vetting had ended because of this.

Owner is a dealer so not sure they would agree to any loan period.
I absolutely adore the horse, it's the 8th I've viewed since starting my search and none of the others even made me want to see them again, but this one was different.

I'm absolutely gutted but I really can't pay a significant sum for a not quite right horse :-( I woke up wondering if I should give it a week and re-vet it again, but am I just clinging to the hope it will miraculously be ok...

 

[GirlFriday]

OP, how many of those <2k horse were lame when you bought them? TBH I'd be wary of paying the most you've ever afforded for a horse that isn't even sound at the outset...

If you had e.g. a particular need for a very safe schoolmaster type that wasn't going to be doing as much as it might have previously there might be *some* arguments for buying it and hoping it came sound (enough). But even for that there is a risk it develops behavioural issues as a result of any residual pain. And obviously it would be a risky investment for any kind of competitive future.

 

[scats]

OP, how many of those <2k horse were lame when you bought them? TBH I'd be wary of paying the most you've ever afforded for a horse that isn't even sound at the outset...

If you had e.g. a particular need for a very safe schoolmaster type that wasn't going to be doing as much as it might have previously there might be *some* arguments for buying it and hoping it came sound (enough). But even for that there is a risk it develops behavioural issues as a result of any residual pain. And obviously it would be a risky investment for any kind of competitive future.

You are totally right. I would want the horse for dressage after all, not just light hacking.

Back to the drawing board I suppose.

 

[Goldenstar]

You know there's always another .
i had two failures on the way to get my new one .

 

[SKW]

I personally wouldn't touch it. How do you know no important structures were involved barring the word of the dealer, who could frankly say whatever they wanted? I recently saw a lovely mare with extensive scarring on a hind leg (which I wasn't told about over the phone) and when I asked was told it caused no problems at the time, but with the position and the extent of the scars I wasn't prepared to take their word and so sadly said no thanks. Out of interest, the horse wasn't based in Surrey were they?

 

[atropa]

scats, as hard as it is, walk away. You want something as sound as you can get, especially for that price.

I have a mare with extensive scarring on both hind legs, purchased that way. She did pass a 5 stage vetting when I bought her, but has a very slight mechanical restriction on the worse leg which is at it's worst when she's not been in work. She also is prone to skin infections and swelling of the legs. I bought her (for under £2k) under the vets advice that he couldn't see it causing any problems with the RC and low level eventing work I wanted to do with her. He was right, but unfortunately she has since went badly lame in a variety of other interesting ways

 

[Tiddlypom]

I've no advice to give in addition to the excellent opinions already posted, but FYI there's a two page article about scar tissue and its effect on a horse's ridden activities in this week's H&H.

http://contentviewer.adobe.com/s/Ho...und July 13 2017/P020_HAH_UK_2017_028_LD.html

The conclusion is 'A big, ugly scar in itself should not stop you from buying, however, as long as you are aware of the full extent of the injury and can be sure that there are no underlying issues'.

 

[mynutmeg]

we got my sister's tb as a yearling with a large scar on the front part of his shoulder in the crease from where he stood on a plow (I know right) and he was short on that leg due to scar tissue. We spent about 6 months doing physio and stretches etc and he came totally sound on it but it was definately a gamble.

 

[Puzzled]

Why not X-ray that leg and see if there are any other issues.....was he sound when ridden? Will the dealer give a warranty on that leg for a certain period of time? Did the flexion test perhaps cause some soreness? Maybe re-vet and lunge first? I'm an optimist....I firmly believe there are very few horses who are 100% sound all of the time.

 

[scats]

Why not X-ray that leg and see if there are any other issues.....was he sound when ridden? Will the dealer give a warranty on that leg for a certain period of time? Did the flexion test perhaps cause some soreness? Maybe re-vet and lunge first? I'm an optimist....I firmly believe there are very few horses who are 100% sound all of the time.

Dealer rang me and we had a chat. They have been back on to their vet as their vet gave them the all-clear back in May to bring this horse into work. Anyway, long story very short, but i am going to get this leg looked at this week and get a second opinion.

 

[SusieT]

Sorry but its in the dealers interest to say it was all ok - and the vet looking in may is very different to the vetting - the horse has an injury and you dont know what damage was done to other structures when the original wound was created -and he was lame on a circle - why buy a problem?
Who's paying for the second look.. you or the dealer?
Honestly - you have no proof this leg will hold up to long term soundness, unless teh horse is dirt cheap and you can afford to retire it don't buy it!