Advice re: Vit E dosage

Birker2020

Birker2020

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In my endeavour to get to the route of my horses issues I have bought some vitamin E as I believe in cases of PSSM it can help and I know I've read on a thread recently about treating with vitamin E.

I'm not sure if my horse falls into the PSSM category but I'd like to give it a go especially as I've heard someone say that it can make a difference in 48 hours or so. And I have nothing to lose by trying to see.

HIs symptoms include a lack of energy when under saddle, reluctance to move forwards - needs lots of leg, resents being girthed, long and low head carriage, weak hind limb presence (which has got a lot better with work) and the occasional hind limb lameness which appears to shift. I know these symptoms can be attributed to having a sore SI and having PSD both of which he had/has. He's been in work since end of July after having his SI medicated mid July for the second time, ridden about 20 times now and is going amazingly well for the pro rider, I am just covering all bases. Vet has said crack on with him. He's been schooled and hacked out and has done some trot pole work.

He's a 11yr old Holsteiner gelding.

I can't for the life work out what dosage should be feeding as he doesn't fall into the category of stallion, brood mare or barren/maiden mare, nor is he being competed.

Anyone help please? Please no nasty comments.

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Did you get him scoped Birker? Personally I'd try that first.
Someone that knows more about PSSM will hopefully be along but you need to be careful feeding one with selenium.
What have you done regarding the PSD?
 
That is not pure vitamin E, it is a supplement which contains selenium among other things. Selenium to excess is toxic to horses, so do not exceed the recommended quantity. That supplement has relatively low levels of vit E.

Be careful if you are feeding another supplement that already contains selenium.

Pure vitamin E is available from Forageplus and Progressive Earth. My mare is on about 8000 iu of natural vit E per day, and has been for 5 years. but many horses need rather less than that.
 
Bellaboo18 said:
Did you get him scoped Birker? Personally I'd try that first.
Someone that knows more about PSSM will hopefully be along but you need to be careful feeding one with selenium.
What have you done regarding the PSD?
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Hi Bellaboo, thanks for your reply. I've not got him scoped yet as the vet didn't return my call so I put him on calcium bentonite and I after 3 or 4 weeks of the pro rider riding him was planning on getting on him as I can't afford to continue indefinetely The rider is doing amazingly but there is no guarantee he will go this way with me. I was kind of covering all eventualities/clutching at straws.

The PSD op (snip) was suggested at one point but I didn't want to do another lengthy rehab having done a 6 month on on him since buying him in Oct last year. The plan at the time was to put him on sales livery with disclosure. That didn't work out and although I made arrangements a second time for him to go to another sales livery I changed by mind as I couldn't let him go, I've formed such an attachment to him. I've decided to keep him and if I get thrown off again/he is clearly too much for me, to retire him and go without another for the time being.
 
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Kicking myself now as I should have asked which Vit E you guys used, I don't want to overdose on selenium.

I'm trying to cover all bases and panicking a bit as my insurance runs out mid Oct. I think there might be an issue with PSSM as the owner said he needed riding reguarly. She also said she had him on electrolytes which I thought at the time was weird as he wasn't in competition or ridden particuarly hard and this was last Oct. This is why I am also thinking PSSM. It's like she was trying to give me a clue but I didn't pick up on it, I had the horse 5 stage vetted and wrongly believed the vet should have picked up on any issues (my vet has since said he should really have failed his vetting).

I will look at the other named Vit E then. Thanks.

I'm really at a loss to know whether to just crack on or get the ulcers treated first, if that's what he has. I'm on a limited budget and struggling as it is having exhausted nearly all my savings on getting this horse right and the toll on my mental health is something that isn't so easily sorted. I love the bones of him and it nearly destroyed me having to give him up on sales livery and I'm so glad I didn't.

He's a lovely boy, cheeky!
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We've had a really positive outcome from the psd op and ulcers (pain from the psd) so if you ever look further in to that feel free to pm me.
The rehab was relatively short and just involved hand walking and rest.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
If you don't get the ulcers sorted first, it will only hinder your training/riding, IMO. In a variety of ways.

Of course getting him comfortable in his body will also lessen the change of the ulcers returning, so I'd still pursue the PSSM diet.
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Low starch, low sugar, high fat - is that basically the idea? Or have I got that wrong? He's currently on Happy Hooves (molassed - usually unmollassed but bought by accident) and pony nuts, calcium bentonite, medium carrot, cabbage, 1/2 apple in each feed. Fed a/m and p/m, on first cut of hay, around 2 large nets a day (1/3 fed in field due to lack of grass).
 
Bellaboo18 said:
We've had a really positive outcome from the psd op and ulcers (pain from the psd) so if you ever look further in to that feel free to pm me.
The rehab was relatively short and just involved hand walking and rest.
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Thank you. I thought I'd read on here about a six week box rest for the PSD but then I'm sure I read someone say 6 months and I really don't think I can do that for something that may or may not work. My YO did ask me the other day if I'd had anymore thoughts about the op and she said it was only a relatively short time of box rest/rehab.

He's had such a lot of stuff done since I've had him, coffin joints, back, si and hocks all medicated. I can probably justify the scoping but can I really justify putting him through the 'cut' op as well? Is it really ethical to continue, it's something I used to struggle with, with my previous horse. If you are not careful you can say 'just one more thing' too many times. :(

That is absolutely no reflection on what others have done btw. There is no wrong or right. He is difficult at times, I guess I need to get on him and see if I can cope before I put him through anything else but then I might not be getting a true reflection of him.
 
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Birker2020 said:
Thank you. I thought I'd read on here about a six week box rest for the PSD but then I'm sure I read someone say 6 months and I really don't think I can do that for something that may or may not work. My YO did ask me the other day if I'd had anymore thoughts about the op and she said it was only a relatively short time of box rest/rehab.
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I know different vets recommend different rehab plans but we only had 2 weeks box rest from her surgery date (so a few days were at the vets). She was also hand-walked in that time and had 3x 15 minutes hand grazing.
She's such a happy horse now.
 
Birker2020 said:
Low starch, low sugar, high fat - is that basically the idea? Or have I got that wrong? He's currently on Happy Hooves (molassed - usually unmollassed but bought by accident) and pony nuts, calcium bentonite, medium carrot, cabbage, 1/2 apple in each feed. Fed a/m and p/m, on first cut of hay, around 2 large nets a day (1/3 fed in field due to lack of grass).
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You're giving him molassed feed (doesn't matter if it was bought by accident, just don't feed it), carrot (high sugar), cabbage (raffinose, should not be fed to horses but especially not ones with any gastric issues or suspected pssm), apple (high sugar) and newish hay. You really need to address his diet.

I don't understand if you want him scoped and the vet hasn't returned your call, weeks ago, you don't just keep trying? But in any event, whether you're dealing with ulcers or pssm or anything else, it all starts with management. Cut out as much sugar as you possibly can, don't add in any extra sugars, by all means try him on natural VitE (not synthetic and without added selenium) but unless you sort the rest of the diet out you are probably wasting your money.
 
Do you have prove the vet said he would of failed ad go small claims and send him back living seller and shit vt altho the threat be enough you may get money back
 
adamntitch said:
Do you have prove the vet said he would of failed ad go small claims and send him back living seller and shit vt altho the threat be enough you may get money back
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adamntitch said:
Do you have prove the vet said he would of failed ad go small claims and send him back living seller and shit vt altho the threat be enough you may get money back
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First vet I used when the horse first started having problems didn't want to even address the fact that the horse had a pre existing injury and I doubt very much the second one will want to get involved either. The whole thing is a nightmare. I'd spoken to legal people at the time but because it was a private sale it was very much my word against theirs and I didn't have any comeback. I didn't get the bloods tested because I didn't realise the seriousness of the situation and kept thinking he would come good.
 
Rowreach said:
You're giving him molassed feed (doesn't matter if it was bought by accident, just don't feed it), carrot (high sugar), cabbage (raffinose, should not be fed to horses but especially not ones with any gastric issues or suspected pssm), apple (high sugar) and newish hay. You really need to address his diet.

I don't understand if you want him scoped and the vet hasn't returned your call, weeks ago, you don't just keep trying? But in any event, whether you're dealing with ulcers or pssm or anything else, it all starts with management. Cut out as much sugar as you possibly can, don't add in any extra sugars, by all means try him on natural VitE (not synthetic and without added selenium) but unless you sort the rest of the diet out you are probably wasting your money.
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Well I can knock the succulents on the head, the molassed feed was the first of about 10 bags he's had - the others were all unmolassed. The hay cut I can't do anything about, I can only use this supplier. Anyway the succulents are in such small quantities I really don't think that that is much of an issue, a quarter of an apple and half a medium sized carrot in each feed is nothing. I am only surmising he has PSSM, I don't know for certain.

I rang the vet last Thursday, I've rung him again today but my reluctance to push is because I'm not sure if he's even got ulcers, or even if he has treating them will resolve anything when he has so many other issues.
 
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I don't know a whole lot about a proper PSSM diet. So maybe others can help with that. I know that Vit E, fats, and low sugar and starch are important, but that's about it.

I think it would be fair to him to scope for ulcers. If he doesn't have them, then atleast you know, but I feel as though it's likely that he has ulcers. Then you can see if there are any, how bad they are, and come up with a treatment plan. His behavior might also improve with treatment.

It's entirely possible that he's also just a big difficult or not the easiest ride by nature and due to past training. Hard to say.
 
I tend to assume ulcers and PSSM go hand in hand.

Are you feeding anything else with selenium in? If not, then feed the supplement you have - 3mg per day is the max for a horse and it looks like you'd have to feed a lot of that supplement to get to that level. From google the maintenance feeding rate for that supplement is 2 scoops per day so I'd start with that. If you then buy some natural vitamin E you can add more in.

I'm a big fan of Equibiome's recommendation of adding oily herbs to the diet of horses with gastric issues (thyme, oregano, rosemary). You can buy yourself and mix or head to somewhere like Equinatural. I'd probably then add Equishure for his hind gut and give it a couple of weeks to see how he does.

I don't think his breeding lends itself to a type 1 diagnosis so you're probably looking at type 2. In which case I'd buy Tri Aminos from Progressive Earth and add in as well.
 
Birker2020 said:
Kicking myself now as I should have asked which Vit E you guys used, I don't want to overdose on selenium.

I'm trying to cover all bases and panicking a bit as my insurance runs out mid Oct. I think there might be an issue with PSSM as the owner said he needed riding reguarly. She also said she had him on electrolytes which I thought at the time was weird as he wasn't in competition or ridden particuarly hard and this was last Oct. This is why I am also thinking PSSM. It's like she was trying to give me a clue but I didn't pick up on it, I had the horse 5 stage vetted and wrongly believed the vet should have picked up on any issues (my vet has since said he should really have failed his vetting).

I will look at the other named Vit E then. Thanks.

I'm really at a loss to know whether to just crack on or get the ulcers treated first, if that's what he has. I'm on a limited budget and struggling as it is having exhausted nearly all my savings on getting this horse right and the toll on my mental health is something that isn't so easily sorted. I love the bones of him and it nearly destroyed me having to give him up on sales livery and I'm so glad I didn't.

He's a lovely boy, cheeky!
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as I asked on one of your other threads about Lari have you asked the old owner which electrolyte they used and put him on it? if she was giving you a clue and you haven't done this you will never know if it was an important piece of info.
As for Vit E then I would start on 10000iu per day. (and stay on that dose for a month at least) obviously not this vit E as it would be dangerous.
 
paddy555 said:
as I asked on one of your other threads about Lari have you asked the old owner which electrolyte they used and put him on it? if she was giving you a clue and you haven't done this you will never know if it was an important piece of info.
As for Vit E then I would start on 10000iu per day. (and stay on that dose for a month at least) obviously not this vit E as it would be dangerous.
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I have sent you a PM
 
Birker2020 said:
Well I can knock the succulents on the head, the molassed feed was the first of about 10 bags he's had - the others were all unmolassed. The hay cut I can't do anything about, I can only use this supplier. Anyway the succulents are in such small quantities I really don't think that that is much of an issue, a quarter of an apple and half a medium sized carrot in each feed is nothing. I am only surmising he has PSSM, I don't know for certain.

I rang the vet last Thursday, I've rung him again today but my reluctance to push is because I'm not sure if he's even got ulcers, or even if he has treating them will resolve anything when he has so many other issues.
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The thing is, ulcers are extremely likely because there are so many other issues here. And not treating ulcers, if he has them, will make him even more uncomfortable than he is with the other issues. You can't ignore that.

And if you are going for a low sugar diet, then the smallest additional sugars (especially if you are feeding cabbage which is harmful anyway and exacerbates gut problems) will potentially tip the balance.
 
Rowreach said:
The thing is, ulcers are extremely likely because there are so many other issues here. And not treating ulcers, if he has them, will make him even more uncomfortable than he is with the other issues. You can't ignore that.

And if you are going for a low sugar diet, then the smallest additional sugars (especially if you are feeding cabbage which is harmful anyway and exacerbates gut problems) will potentially tip the balance.
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Ok thanks. Waiting for the vet to get back to me.
 
If he does have type 1 PSSM vitamin e will do nothing on the current diet. He is incredibly unlikely to have type 1 PSSM. Pull some hair and have it tested while you scope for ulcers. The type 1 test is about £30, the vitamin e will cost you more than that. If he does have it, hay will have to be changed or soaked and his diet completely overhauled. Yes half a carrot really can make a huge difference to type 1 horses. Its manageable but not with half measures.

With his breeding you are almost certainly looking at type 2 PSSM. He doesnt seem to have many of the symptoms for type 2 really, but its a weird thing and can present in many ways. For type 2 vitamin e is of limited help. Not much is if your looking to keep a horse in a decent level of competition work, unfortunately, but there are things that would be worth trying.

He is showing signs of ulcers and PSD, so get those eliminated or confirmed and treated first along with type 1 PSSM test. If theres still issues you can then look at type 2 PSSM, I really hope its not that though.
 
Dexter said:
If he does have type 1 PSSM vitamin e will do nothing on the current diet. He is incredibly unlikely to have type 1 PSSM. Pull some hair and have it tested while you scope for ulcers. The type 1 test is about £30, the vitamin e will cost you more than that. If he does have it, hay will have to be changed or soaked and his diet completely overhauled. Yes half a carrot really can make a huge difference to type 1 horses. Its manageable but not with half measures.

With his breeding you are almost certainly looking at type 2 PSSM. He doesnt seem to have many of the symptoms for type 2 really, but its a weird thing and can present in many ways. For type 2 vitamin e is of limited help. Not much is if your looking to keep a horse in a decent level of competition work, unfortunately, but there are things that would be worth trying.

He is showing signs of ulcers and PSD, so get those eliminated or confirmed and treated first along with type 1 PSSM test. If theres still issues you can then look at type 2 PSSM, I really hope its not that though.
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you don't seem very keen on vit e. I am not sure where this horse is getting vit E from on his diet outlined above. What about vit E deficiency.
 
paddy555 said:
you don't seem very keen on vit e. I am not sure where this horse is getting vit E from on his diet outlined above. What about vit E deficiency.
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I'm not keen on the way this forum prescribes vitamin e as some sort of miracle cure. Its is very useful in the case of deficiencies and in type 1 PSSM with the correct diet and management changes. I feed it year round to horses with no PSSM or PSSM type symptoms, as its a useful supplement. For the treatment of PSSM you need to test for type 1 first.

The OP is clutching at straws hoping the addition of the wrong type of vitamin e is going to fix everything, which is almost certainly not the case with this horse, absolutely not the case unless diet and management is addressed, and definitely not the case if the horse has type 2 PSSM. It would be easy to try vitamin e, have no huge improvement, then rule out PSSM when it may still be an issue. But before any of that, other pre exisiting issues need to be ruled out or its just taking misguided shots in the dark.
 
OP- has he been scanned for PSD and, if so, how bad is it? I ask because I have a mare who’s issues all stem from very (very) mild, but chronic, PSD.
It has made me realise how little an issue a horse needs in this area to cause major problems.
 
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