Advice Required - Chronic Progressive Lymphoedema (CPL)

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ShouldHaveBoughtAGoldfish

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Hello Forum :)

I have a horrible feeling that my beautiful little gypsy vanner has CPL and need some good, sound experience-based advice (i.e. not read verbatim from the CPL info websites / facebook pages or those pages taken as gospel).

The little one is absolutely dripping in feather, which I keep clean and mite free with a balls-to-the-wall regime of de-miting using special washes, diatomaceous earth powder in the summer, pig oil and sulphur in winter and fipronil pipettes every 12 weeks. We rarely have foot stamping / rubbing / biting. I do not think you should not wash their legs too often (especially in the winter) as you wash away all the glorious oils, which do a grand job of protecting his skin. When his feather gets muddy, pull them apart and they are bright, beautiful white underneath.

I keep the backs of his heels – up to the fetlock clipped all year round because he gets hot in the summer and muddy in the winter. They are not clipped short – about 10mm so I can see what is going on under the skin folds and keep them as clean and dry as possible. I inspect his skin folds daily as I have found grass seeds and other field fodder between them previously. He has the pinkest, most sensitive skin I’ve ever seen under all his feather and from my own experience, clipping this off will undoubtedly cause all manner of issues. To mention a few: - fly bites and sunburn in the summer (he will not keep boots on…ever), will be able to gnaw or rub his legs raw year round as the thick heavy feather prevents this and he will end up with mud fever in the winter,, possibly leading then to something more sinister.

I check his legs over daily and address any scabs or scales. He does have mallenders – up to last year, only behind on knee but now behind both. I have found nothing works better than a hot cloth to soften the scales, Nizoral wash (for human psoriasis), followed by pig oil and suphur. His skin generally underneath the feather is healthy and happy but he does get the occasional scaly patch (hyperkeratosis) and the odd small lesion – usually between the cannon bone and the DDTF on the inside of his forelimbs, which I clip / trim around, treat accordingly and they clear up quickly.

He is fed a diet of mainly forage – soaked hay to keep his weight down, grass when turned out (muzzled most of the year) and a good quality balancer and Thunderbrooks chaff for his marigold and cleavers, seaweed and Seavitamin. He gets limited pony treats and instead gets a low-calorie assortment of lettuce, celery and radishes from me and the odd carrot, apple or parsnip from his loaner. He is ridden 3 – 4 times a week and is out every day for around 9hrs, except in winter when the gates are knee-deep mud, then he is out every other day as I worry about the long-term effects the mud pulling on his muscles, tendons and bones and him slipping and sliding around may have.

I have a couple of people on my current yard with CPL horses, both have fully clipped legs but both are very dark horses with dark skin. The only person I have met with a fair skinned CPL horse advised me under no uncertain terms to clip my boys feather off. She advised that it was the worst thing she has ever done to her mare as she immediately got mud fever, which got infected as it was so sore, she wouldn’t let the owner near the legs to clean, dry and treat. She also regularly gets fly strike in any lacerations in the summer and she has said that she wishes she never listened to the vet when they told her to clip.

So my questions are…

1. What are your experiences with clipped legs with sensitive pink skin?

2. What are your experiences with unclipped CPL horses?

3. Why is clipping such a big thing with CPL horses if their legs and skin is healthy and any lumps and lesions are addressed properly?

4. What are the advantages / disadvantages of clipping and has anyone tried both?

5. Does anyone have any other tips for managing CPL horses? I know that it is a progressive, degenerative disease for which the actions are really to slow progression and mitigate infection.

I am of course happy and prepared to do whatever is best for my baby boy. I just want him to be happy, healthy and comfortable. He’s with me for a long time, not just a good time!
 
My friend has a horse with CPL and pink skin underneath but he has never struggled with mud fever.

When he was diagnosed she clipped his feather out but it hasn't made any difference to the treatment or the mallander scabs etc. The only advantage was that, as you said, it makes it easier to see any progression of the CPL. Now she's seen it and knows it, she's letting the feather come back. There are some that say it holds moisture next to the hoof and leg, creating more problems, but it's not that simple and the farrier was in support of leaving the feather.

You've probably been told to avoid biotin at all costs. The latest advice has changed and it seems not all CPL / Hyperkeratosis horses are sensitive to biotin making the illness worse. Some are, some aren't.

From your post it sounds like you don't need advice, it sounds like you are already doing everything you can. Keep going!
 
My little loan pony ( see profile picture) has CPL
I didn't realise until I clipped his feathers off , I was horrified at his legs underneath
They are now regularly clipped , and treated with spot on every 3 months , this has kept on top of things without the need for creams etc
He is barefoot and lives out 24/7/365
I found the CPL fb page very informative and supportive
 
The CPL Facebook page is excellent - it's had vets contribute so it's up to speed on what works.

Taking feather off means the legs don't get trapped sweat, dead skin cells etc against the skin and the skin can breath better

I didn't always clip my old Ardennes because he needed doping (his CPL was bad enough to show up on x ray) but I tended to sedate and take feather off if I saw him start itching his legs. His swellings were always better with feather off and 24:7 turnout.

My smallest cob has the beginnings of thickened skin but I left feather on this winter and it's definitely warmer if I stick my fingers in than I'd like. I've also noticed her itching on warmer days and she's been treated for mites so I think it's because she's sweaty under the feather

Those two were both dark skin but I clip the one with white legs too. Never had mud fever and I think that's more complex than just pink vs dark skin.

Ultimately it's up to you though, but personally I found air on the skin and movement were the most important elements in keeping the Ardennes legs under control.
 
I can only answer the first question- clipped pink legs are fine- obviously I wouldn't do them with a fine blade otherwise you end up with a pink pony! I've never had any problems with sunburn or anything like that. Not sure if mud fever is any greater risk as pink skinned or not but I found my gelding not overly affected by it, he's had it a wee bit more over the last few years but I think that's due to age and perhaps weakened immune system.

I would be interested to hear about the feather situation though as I now have a youngster with feather and unsure how to manage it.
 
I haven't clipped pink legs but I doubt there's an issue as long as you don't clip really short, which isn't advised with CPL anyway since the folds will mean the hair will grow straight into the opposing skin.

The CPL website has really good info but imo it's incomplete. I find the Facebook irritating, there is plenty of good info but it also turns off commenting when people are asking for help or questioning something that isn't well documented.

I have a feathered cob with a bit of CPL and a recently clipped one with moderate CPL. Clipping did make a huge difference, it allowed more air to the skin which dried everything up and now there's less dead skin there because it is easy to brush away so less food for the mites. Easier to wash and dry, emollients get straight to the skin. He was less itchy immediately and really enjoyed being clipped.

I do think that whether your horse has straight or curly feather makes a huge difference, straight seems cooler and dead skin doesn't seem to build up like it does in curly.

Mallanders - flamazine is the way to go. From your vet.

I bought the latest knowing he had untreated CPL because i am pretty sure I can improve it and I felt sorry for him! Movement is key, he went from a small square flat paddock with one friend to a herd in a huge hilly field and the difference was visible even though he's in overnight. Marigold and clivers (cheapest from Horse Herbs) also definitely made a difference. Clipping has made him more comfortable and reduced itching.

Gold standard for mite treatment is now a cattle worming pour on. Appears to be near 100% for mites and it exfoliates the legs. You need a vet who is willing to read the research though because is not licensed for horses. The jab (decomax is it?) seems to decrease itchiness but does nothing to reduce the mites because they don't feed on blood so I'd rather treat the cause.
 
I also find the CPL facebook page a bit unaccommodating as if anyone new asks a question, it's always locked or deleted as it's already been answered and in some file. I quite like browsing new posts as it's good to get a recent discussion started perhaps with people that have found different ways of managing it.
 
Thanks for your help and support everyone! I really do appreciate it. It really is a minefield having horses sometimes but they are so worth it! I will keep on doing what i am doing and give some of your suggestions a try re; what products to use and i may try clipping in the future. I'll also hit up the Facebook page and WHW info page too.

If I find anything interesting or that works for us, i'll report back :)

Thanks again! x
 
A friend at the yard has a horse with CPL and has had no problems with clipping even on pink legs. If anything it's made it easier to spot and treat any issues. Several of the horses have mud fever this year (it's just been so wet!) but he's not one of them.
 
My boy has white legs so pink skin. He gets clipped approx every 3 weeks and I find for me it’s better because 1) I’m not a feathers person anyway 2) I’m not into washing hairy legs for hours a week. Kept long enough they don’t burn/get mud fever but that’s just my experience.

The biggest thing I’ve found is diet; absolutely strictly zero alfalfa, soya or treats like carrots and parsnip only ever an odd apple.

The other thing I’d mention is stop the pig oil and sulphur, it’s harsh. I use a good quality (thus unfortunately more expensive) emollient like cetraben or diprobase or e45. Not lotion but thick cream. Bar that I do everything else you already do and barring the odd flare up we have decent leggos.
 
ShouldHaveBoughtAGoldfish said:
Hello Forum :)

I have a horrible feeling that my beautiful little gypsy vanner has CPL and need some good, sound experience-based advice (i.e. not read verbatim from the CPL info websites / facebook pages or those pages taken as gospel).

The little one is absolutely dripping in feather, which I keep clean and mite free with a balls-to-the-wall regime of de-miting using special washes, diatomaceous earth powder in the summer, pig oil and sulphur in winter and fipronil pipettes every 12 weeks. We rarely have foot stamping / rubbing / biting. I do not think you should not wash their legs too often (especially in the winter) as you wash away all the glorious oils, which do a grand job of protecting his skin. When his feather gets muddy, pull them apart and they are bright, beautiful white underneath.

I keep the backs of his heels – up to the fetlock clipped all year round because he gets hot in the summer and muddy in the winter. They are not clipped short – about 10mm so I can see what is going on under the skin folds and keep them as clean and dry as possible. I inspect his skin folds daily as I have found grass seeds and other field fodder between them previously. He has the pinkest, most sensitive skin I’ve ever seen under all his feather and from my own experience, clipping this off will undoubtedly cause all manner of issues. To mention a few: - fly bites and sunburn in the summer (he will not keep boots on…ever), will be able to gnaw or rub his legs raw year round as the thick heavy feather prevents this and he will end up with mud fever in the winter,, possibly leading then to something more sinister.

I check his legs over daily and address any scabs or scales. He does have mallenders – up to last year, only behind on knee but now behind both. I have found nothing works better than a hot cloth to soften the scales, Nizoral wash (for human psoriasis), followed by pig oil and suphur. His skin generally underneath the feather is healthy and happy but he does get the occasional scaly patch (hyperkeratosis) and the odd small lesion – usually between the cannon bone and the DDTF on the inside of his forelimbs, which I clip / trim around, treat accordingly and they clear up quickly.

He is fed a diet of mainly forage – soaked hay to keep his weight down, grass when turned out (muzzled most of the year) and a good quality balancer and Thunderbrooks chaff for his marigold and cleavers, seaweed and Seavitamin. He gets limited pony treats and instead gets a low-calorie assortment of lettuce, celery and radishes from me and the odd carrot, apple or parsnip from his loaner. He is ridden 3 – 4 times a week and is out every day for around 9hrs, except in winter when the gates are knee-deep mud, then he is out every other day as I worry about the long-term effects the mud pulling on his muscles, tendons and bones and him slipping and sliding around may have.

I have a couple of people on my current yard with CPL horses, both have fully clipped legs but both are very dark horses with dark skin. The only person I have met with a fair skinned CPL horse advised me under no uncertain terms to clip my boys feather off. She advised that it was the worst thing she has ever done to her mare as she immediately got mud fever, which got infected as it was so sore, she wouldn’t let the owner near the legs to clean, dry and treat. She also regularly gets fly strike in any lacerations in the summer and she has said that she wishes she never listened to the vet when they told her to clip.

So my questions are…

1. What are your experiences with clipped legs with sensitive pink skin?

2. What are your experiences with unclipped CPL horses?

3. Why is clipping such a big thing with CPL horses if their legs and skin is healthy and any lumps and lesions are addressed properly?

4. What are the advantages / disadvantages of clipping and has anyone tried both?

5. Does anyone have any other tips for managing CPL horses? I know that it is a progressive, degenerative disease for which the actions are really to slow progression and mitigate infection.

I am of course happy and prepared to do whatever is best for my baby boy. I just want him to be happy, healthy and comfortable. He’s with me for a long time, not just a good time!
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Clipping is necessary because it helps maintain the skin. Cpl horses legs get excess dry skin and keratosis. When the skin gets dry this is when it cracks and sores happen. When infections set into cpl legs they can be very dangerous. Clipping allows the skin to be treated with regular emollient use keeping it supple, less likely to break and therefore less itchy and irritating for the horse. Heat increases itch. And also increases bacterial growth. Think how much heat is generated in that thick feather. As a full time body clipper I have helped in the treatment of masses of these horses and have had a particular interest in cobs growing up with some having these issues before I learned what cpl was. When I started to learn about it I researched as much as I could because I wanted to help people and help educate in their horses care because it's becoming such a problem. The progression can be massively slowed down by proper skin maintenence. I see some who have left it too late to get help because they just didn't want to loose the hair and ultimately this condition shortens lives
 
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