Advice - should I have to pay?

DabDab

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Lévrier;13568545 said:
Then the owner should have stipulated the details of any veterinary treatment in a contract - the pro should not be expected to have a crystal ball?

I wouldn't expect someone to provide a full medical history to a pro just in case, no. Why on earth would an owner expect a horse on short term training livery to have non emergency treatment without being notified?

No crystal ball required, just had to pick up the soddin phone
 

ycbm

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Are contracts really routine?. Friends send theirs to a pro several times a year and have no contracts. I sent one to be backed and never dreamed of asking for a contract. And left another after purchase to be backed by the seller, same again.

Is this unusual?
 

ihatework

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Are contracts really routine?. Friends send theirs to a pro several times a year and have no contracts. I sent one to be backed and never dreamed of asking for a contract. And left another after purchase to be backed by the seller, same again.

Is this unusual?

50/50
 

{97702}

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Quite possibly I am FAR too much of a natural born cynic, but my work experience suggests that the first story you are told can SOMETIMES not be the whole story. So the pro decided apropos of nothing to have wolf teeth looked at? And the OP was OK with that but not having to pay a full call out fee, which was what the original complaint was about? Hmmm....

Since I am very clearly in the minority I shall leave it here - if
I am wrong, I sincerely apologise for being too sceptical
 

amy_b

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Lévrier;13568596 said:
as I said previously, I would have ensured that there was a contract in place to avoid this sort of situation - why wouldn't you? Yes I agree the pro SHOULD have made contact first, in today's world I would have also made absolutely sure they knew they HAD to - assumption is the mother of all **** ups as the Forces saying goes... personally my horse is far too important to me to make assumptions

ETA - I find it quite odd that the OP seems quite happy for the wolf teeth to be taken out (query - was this a potential known problem? I have no idea, but MAYBE even one he/she had mentioned to the pro???) but appears to be kicking up about a call out fee??

Not at all but what can I do now? It's been done.
 

amy_b

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Lévrier;13568649 said:
Quite possibly I am FAR too much of a natural born cynic, but my work experience suggests that the first story you are told can SOMETIMES not be the whole story. So the pro decided apropos of nothing to have wolf teeth looked at? And the OP was OK with that but not having to pay a full call out fee, which was what the original complaint was about? Hmmm....

Since I am very clearly in the minority I shall leave it here - if
I am wrong, I sincerely apologise for being too sceptical

You will have to take my word for it that series of events were, phone call to say vet had been and taken teeth out, I was caught on the back foot and agreed to pay vets directly. I am not a confrontational person and should have said I wasn't happy at that point but thought I was being over sensitive. The call out fee is the straw that broke the camels back and is really because it was booked in specifically, which changed it from an ad hoc 'check this horse while you are here' to going out of his way to book him in specifically and not letting me know about it in the preceding... 24 hours?! Minimum? That the vet was coming to check his teeth. That is really where my issue lies.
 
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ycbm

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Not at all but what can I do now? It's been done.

You didn't want it done. It was done without your permission. You can refuse to pay the bill. They have no contract with you, verbal or written, and they can't make you pay.
 

{97702}

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You will have to take my word for it that series of events were, phone call to say vet had been and taken teeth out, I was caught on the back foot and agreed to pay vets directly. I am not a confrontational person and should have said I wasn't happy at that point but thought I was being over sensitive. The call out fee is the straw that broke the camels back and is really because it was booked in specifically, which changed it from an ad hoc 'check this horse while you are here' to going out of his way to book him in specifically and not letting me know about it in the preceding... 24 hours?! Minimum? That the vet was coming to check his teeth. That is really where my issue lies.

Fair enough - in that case I genuinely do apologise and accept that I am too cynical for my own good. I'm sorry :(
 

DabDab

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Lévrier;13568649 said:
Quite possibly I am FAR too much of a natural born cynic, but my work experience suggests that the first story you are told can SOMETIMES not be the whole story. So the pro decided apropos of nothing to have wolf teeth looked at? And the OP was OK with that but not having to pay a full call out fee, which was what the original complaint was about? Hmmm....

Since I am very clearly in the minority I shall leave it here - if
I am wrong, I sincerely apologise for being too sceptical

I am a professional, I expect to be expected to act correctly. I expect other professionals to do the same. I WILL NOT lower my standards to the lowest common denominator, I don't want to live in that world.

If this was my horse I would have gone and collected it immediately, then made a formal complaint to the vets involved before coming to some kind of settlement over the bill.
 

{97702}

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While we are at it let's add:
Pro will not abuse horse
Pro will not let unauthorised people ride horse
Pro will not put blue rug with pink flowers on horse

Where do you draw the line? I'm sorry but the OP example is plain common sense

That's pretty much what my BHS loan agreement says..... although possibly not the colour of his rug....
 

amy_b

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Appreciate everybody's replys and opinions. I'm not one to fall out with people so plan to pick the horse up and explain that I'm not happy with how the situation was dealt with. I live five minutes round the corner so bringing him home really would have been a better plan.

Just nice to know that I am not barking up the wrong tree.
 

alainax

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The contracts don't have to be complicated. Horse name, age, sex, vices, health problems, vet details, tack left, feed required. Owners details plus emergency contact details. Then some note on what you are expected to pay and when, plus that you authorise them to get the vet in an emergency.

I signed a contract for backing and for my unrelated lessons.
 

Micropony

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I am another one who probably wouldn't have thought to put in place a written contract, and if I did I certainly wouldn't have thought to put something in there requiring the pro to consult me about non-emergency vet treatment. I would take that for granted, just like it wouldn't occur to me to stipulate that I didn't want him fed chocolate cake or dressed up as a Christmas pudding! I thought I was fairly cynical and untrusting, but perhaps I am more naive than I thought!

My horse has wolf teeth, vet noted them at the pre purchase vetting, dentist has commented on them and they are plain to see. But they don't interfere with the bit, give the horse no trouble at all and both my vet and dentist have advised to leave them be. If I had sent him away for schooling and the pro took it upon themselves to arrange an unnecessary procedure without my prior agreement I would be fuming, whether or not I was going to pay the vet's call out fee would likely be the least of it!
 

Vodkagirly

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I don't suppose you have sent the horse to someone in County Durham? I only ask as there was a thread fromy a pro asking if people would accept a pro arranging a vet without telling owner. General concensus was owner should be consulted before except in an emergency.
 

sarahandwilby

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I'd be miffed if I was asked to just whip some wolf teeth out 'while you're here' - from the other side of the fence!

They shouldn't have been removed without your permission, as an act of non-emergency surgery. Even if they couldn't get hold of you at the time it could have been arranged for the following week etc. If he was also sedated for the procedure (which they usually are) then that should also not have been done without the owners permission tbh. Of course, the vet may not have realised that the pro didn't have your permission for this to be done (or that it wasn't the pro's own horse - often we don't ask!) in which case whilst it's not reeeeally their fault, you may well have a case for a discount (and an apology) if you ring the vets practice, ask to speak to the boss/manager and voice your concerns.

For the record, I've seen some horses with pretty much TUSKS instead of wolf teeth with no issues. Unless the owner has particular concerns, they're unusual in shape/size/position etc. then I try to leave them in as there is always a risk you could make things a hell of a lot worse by taking them out (e.g. cracking a root)...
 

ycbm

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SandW, I'm sorry but she has more than 'a case for a discount and an apology'. The work was done without her requesting it, without her permission and quite possibly completely unnecessarily.

The vet's verbal contract is with the trainer, not with the owner.

There is no doubt whatsoever that legally, the owner does not owe one penny of this money to the vet.
 

be positive

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SandW, I'm sorry but she has more than 'a case for a discount and an apology'. The work was done without her requesting it, without her permission and quite possibly completely unnecessarily.

The vet's verbal contract is with the trainer, not with the owner.

There is no doubt whatsoever that legally, the owner does not owe one penny of this money to the vet.

It is also the fact it was an arranged appointment, not a "just while you are here" one, that makes it a contract between the pro and vet, most vets are more careful now. .
Years ago any horse on my yard was treated without question as if it were mine now if I want to book a livery in for anything, I frequently arrange flu jabs, they ask who owns it and it then goes on record, if a new owner they want to take details, address and contact numbers even though they are more than happy to come out the bill will then go directly to the owner not me.

I did have a middle of the night emergency recently with a horse not on the vets books, the vet came out without questioning me, the bill was sent directly and the owner paid but she could have refused if she had felt I had got the vet unnecessarily or authorised inappropriate treatment.
 

FfionWinnie

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The pro I use has a contract but it only mentions permission to give emergency treatment. There is no way this is an acceptable situation I can't believe anyone thinks it is!

I would remove the horse immediately if it were mine. Have you got BHS gold cover ask their advice about the bill.
 

honetpot

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I have sent mine out several times for backing and schooling and I most of the people I have used are absolutely rubbish about informing me about progress and I have never had a proper contract. I always stress they are not insured for vets fees and I will want them home if there is a problem and email them so at least I have a record of what has been said.
My lasts backer FB practically every day with videos of the progress done, so I am more than satisfied.
I think a lot just think they know better than the owner and seem to have no regard for the owner.
I would say the contract for removing the teeth was between the trainer and the vet, if you have had no impute and no contract. I would get the horse back and take them to small claims court if you have had to pay the bill and for any costs.
 

cundlegreen

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I'd love to know who would have footed the bill if sedation had gone wrong and horse had hurt itself. It shouldn't be the owner, who knew nothing about the procedure until it was a fait accompli. If the horse has been there 10 days since without work, I do hope the costs are greatly reduced. As an owner who's had several horses away with a pro, without contract, I like to know I'm getting my money's worth. OP, don't feel unreasonable about kicking up a fuss. It's YOUR hard earned money when all is said and done!
 
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