Advice

Polos Mum said:
It..... if someone falls over something on a yard and is unable to walk again .....
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Then flippin' tough! Serves them right for not looking where they were going and an example to all to be more careful.

... the costs awarded would be several million.
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Yes, and utterly friggin' ridiculous too!

- if my horse gets on the road and causes an accident
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And just how could he EVER do that? He is an ANIMAL - totally innocent and free from any possible malice of forethought. How could he possibly cause an "accident" - even in an "incident" he would be totally innocent with the other parties being 100% responsible for careering about without due regard etc., etc.

I am regularly driven speakless by the modern tendency to follow America into ridiculous litigation - often followed by equally ridculous judgements. Folk should be made to realise that it's vehicles ( let's face it, it is most RTI's we're talking of here ) that have to PAY road tax for permission to use one - the horse and foot traffic has a Statutory Right to use it free of let or hinderance - so IMHO - the Law should reflect that in all fields.
 
I used to rent a field and two stables for £50 per month, when it got poached and trashed in winter I rented some more fields which were another £50, rotated them but had to pay for both all year round as I wanted to use them as I pleased, never occurred to me that I shouldn't have to pay for one when using the other, grazing is No1 on my list of must haves in life.
If I was paying for a yard that I wanted to stay at and felt the grazing situation wasn't up to much I'd look for alternative grazing and happily pay the extra for it. They are - at the end of the day - my horses and my responsibility.
 
Polos Mum said:
I'm not clear - hence why I have insurance on my property and BHS third party cover which covers all horses I own/ in my care/ I am riding or handling.

I'd guess if you horse caused an accident and you didn't have sufficient insurance once they'd bankrupted you they'd move on to the yard owner and try and claim the YO was negligent in fencing (or whatever it was that caused your horse to get out)

Insurance companies will go after the people with the deepest pockets.

More to the point if you have a preventable accident on thier premises and are paralised for life you can sue your YO but if they are uninsured you might get a little but not the £million's you'd need for lifetime care
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Ok crikey....Thank you for that advice :)
 
1stclassalan said:
Yes, and utterly friggin' ridiculous too!


IIMHO - the Law should reflect that in all fields.
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Oh I absolutely agree with you - the relatively recent change in rules that clearly state if some B*£%^(ds break into my yard and smash my perfectly good gate while doing so, which means my horse can escape - he then gets run over by someone else - the whole incident is MY fault !!


Sadly the law and common sense are quite far apart in this areas and all the lovely ambulance chasers make it worse.

A friend of mine had lots of expensive tack she sold but kept at home. Two trained, lovely but effective guard dogs on chains, signs EVERYWHERE clearly stating dangerous dogs. Some idiot climbed over the gate - at night - lost !!! (which had a sign on it clearly lit up by security lights!) walked within range of the dogs chains and was bitten. This was my friends fault, she paid out and dog PTS !!!!!
 
Rhodders said:
I used to rent a field and two stables for £50 per month, when it got poached and trashed in winter I rented some more fields which were another £50, rotated them but had to pay for both all year round as I wanted to use them as I pleased, never occurred to me that I shouldn't have to pay for one when using the other, grazing is No1 on my list of must haves in life.
If I was paying for a yard that I wanted to stay at and felt the grazing situation wasn't up to much I'd look for alternative grazing and happily pay the extra for it. They are - at the end of the day - my horses and my responsibility.
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Room for a little one! I graft hard, very hard and this is the first time I've had a moan in 4 years I am generally a half glass full person...We could get sheep in to help the land...:D...
 
Polos Mum said:
I'm not clear - hence why I have insurance on my property and BHS third party cover which covers all horses I own/ in my care/ I am riding or handling.
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This, of course, is a necessary evil of today.

I'd guess if you horse caused an accident and you didn't have sufficient insurance once they'd bankrupted you they'd move on to the yard owner and try and claim the YO was negligent in fencing (or whatever it was that caused your horse to get out)

Insurance companies will go after the people with the deepest pockets.
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The legal eagles go after the one they think most vunerable to the Law as they see it at the time. This has changed over the years as my post indicates. Time was when every judge was a 'untin' shootin' and fishin' man, wanted to be one or was deeply related to folk that were - it's still very much a similar case but bad horse verdicts are far more common these days and there was a blanket ruling made a good few years back now that makes all owners - right from mice up to elephants fully responsible for their animal's actions - it should have provoked riots in the streets but unfortunately the animal owning types are either too nice to that kind of thing or don't realise what has happened.

More to the point if you have a preventable accident
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An "accident" is by it's very nature - no one's fault so they don't exist anymore - we only have "incidents" which are ALL PREVENTABLE and have argueable blame components that will keep the lawyers employed for donkeys.

on thier premises and are paralised for life you can sue your YO but if they are uninsured you might get a little but not the £million's you'd need for lifetime care
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We are all supposedly covered by the NHS - all the attention and facilities you need, free at the point of delivery. But there's an entire industry looking to justify itself now.
 
Polos Mum said:
Some idiot climbed over the gate - at night - lost !!! (which had a sign on it clearly lit up by security lights!) walked within range of the dogs chains and was bitten. This was my friends fault, she paid out and dog PTS !!!!!
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I would have set the dogs on her solictor / barrister! Lost, my aunt Fanny - he was looking to see what he could nick! Bet he was a flippin....pi.... erm nice travelling person!
 
leanda said:
Righty o...Even though it wasn't my fault that they got out say for example: the fence was broke or the gates were left open?
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Yes, it is your property, you have a duty of care to reasonably ensure your property does not cause damage. The judge would look at whether you were negligent by not ensuring a gate couldn't be left open.
 
leanda said:
Righty o...Even though it wasn't my fault
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As the Law stands - you are bang to rights guilty because you own him!

that they got out say for example: the fence was broke or the gates were left open?
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These are mitigating factors - it might get you off a criminal prosecution but you're still be liable for damages. You'd have to prove who was responsible for the fences - how "reasonable" (there's that word again) it was for you to know/ not know that the fence was damaged etc., etc.

All this is complicated by the fact that you can often have the parties all insured by the same insurers or say a few on one side and an odd one out - guess who gets their ar*s sued? Some big pay outs recently against some well known names ( T&C's apply) that don't have much to do with the facts - just the insurers paying each other to make it all go away.
 
1stclassalan said:
As the Law stands - you are bang to rights guilty because you own him!


These are mitigating factors - it might get you off a criminal prosecution but you're still be liable for damages. You'd have to prove who was responsible for the fences - how "reasonable" (there's that word again) it was for you to know/ not know that the fence was damaged etc., etc.

All this is complicated by the fact that you can often have the parties all insured by the same insurers or say a few on one side and an odd one out - guess who gets their ar*s sued? Some big pay outs recently against some well known names ( T&C's apply) that don't have much to do with the facts - just the insurers paying each other to make it all go away.
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This is correct. Although there have been attempts to limit it, the current position based on the Animals Act and case law is that however blameless the owner is, however out of character for the horse, however to blame someone unknown mught have been by leaving a gate open, maliciously cutting a fence or whatever it is, if your horse causes an accident eg through getting out or even in the field and someone else is injured, YOU are responsible for the massive civil damages that can arise.

For that reason is is madness not to factor in the cost of BHS gold membership or similar 3rd party liability insurance into the basic costs of keeping a horse.

BTW on the ragwort comments the ragwort is toxic to the sheep too BUT if put on the gorund end of winter early spring time, the emerging small florets are lower in toxins and much smaller in size than they are later in the year. Hence if the sheep are grazed hard, with quite a few sheep on limited area, they will potentially deal with the ragwort and survive well beyond when they would go to the chop. They also clean the field of rank patches which is where the ragwort tends to get a hold, leading to a more uniform better quality grass sward which it is harder for the ragwort to establish in. Also the toxins are a certain amount less efficiently deadly in the different system of a sheep. Not to say they dont die of ragwort, they do sometimes if they are old and have been grazed on nothing but, but its a lot less common.
 
RunToEarth said:
Yes, it is your property, you have a duty of care to reasonably ensure your property does not cause damage. The judge would look at whether you were negligent by not ensuring a gate couldn't be left open.
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You mean the owner of the yard obviously... It's not my property...
 
leanda said:
You mean the owner of the yard obviously... It's not my property...
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In law the horse is seen as 'property', so the property is the horse and you are responsible for it, and if you are a 'hollow man' when the litigation happens the YO can be in some circumstances held responsible.

NB someone earlier was querying about not paying business rates, they should bear in mind that a lot of farm type places get 100% business rate relief for small scale diversification and this often includes horse livery (this causes resentment from 'proper' livery yards who have to pay some). They should still be insured tho.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
In law the horse is seen as 'property', so the property is the horse and you are responsible for it, and if you are a 'hollow man' when the litigation happens the YO can be in some circumstances held responsible.

NB someone earlier was querying about not paying business rates, they should bear in mind that a lot of farm type places get 100% business rate relief for small scale diversification and this often includes horse livery (this causes resentment from 'proper' livery yards who have to pay some). They should still be insured tho.
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My "property" being my horse would be responsible for getting out say by a gate being left open or a damaged fence, and then potentially causing an accident even though I wasn't at the yard...Crikey. My horse is insured so that's a relief...
 
leanda said:
My "property" being my horse would be responsible for getting out say by a gate being left open or a damaged fence, and then potentially causing an accident even though I wasn't at the yard...Crikey. My horse is insured so that's a relief...
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Yes that's a good summary of the legal position, so good work having the insurance!

One other risk noone has mentioned, a sheep might trip up your horse while out of its head on ragwort:-DDD
 
It's not your horse insurance that covers you - it's personal liability insurance. Which every horse owner should have.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Yes that's a good summary of the legal position, so good work having the insurance!

One other risk noone has mentioned, a sheep might trip up your horse while out of its head on ragwort:-DDD
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Do sheep have to be insured then? They aren't in the same field as the horses...
 
Wigwam_bam said:
We don't graze our land over winter (Cattle are housed inside.) and we have had abour 35ewes off a friend to graze the grass, they were there for about a month and have done a lovely job, we just harrowed the top field (Fairly flat and dryish) and it looks wonderful, we've always used sheep to graze over the winter, they do a wonderful job stripping the rubbish and don't poach the ground as much as a couple of horses/herd of cattle :)
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We've just put 40 sheep on our field this winter, they have done a wonderful job. I would almost pay them to be here!

leanda said:
Do you not think we should have still had access to the field shelter and automatic water then? That's what we pay our rent for too... We were told we couldn't! The hose pipe came out as soon as the sheep moved on...I have got one but the farmer had broke the the connector to the tap, he said he'd replace it but hasn't to date but the YO found another as soon as the sheep moved into the fields...
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If you don't have a contract, you're paying rent just to be there, not for specific facilities. I guess the hose was repaired because its not hard carrying water for two horses, but water for 40 sheep is another matter, so it was a bit more needed!


RunToEarth said:
You just reminded me why we gave up doing livery.
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Sorry, but me too. And if your YO does someone whose animals are getting hurt a favour, she must be pretty nice. Turn it around, if your horse was injured, and needed seperating from the others, and she said "can't do it, there are sheep there and their owner will complain.." how would you feel?

As for the insurance issue, you certainly won't get your livery for that price once that is added on!

Sorry - I guess I will go on your "negative comments" list, but you do seem to be totally wrapped up in yourself.
 
Assuming that it is advice you want and not just agreement that you have been badly treated then you have to decide whether you want to stay at your current yard or not. If the answer is "no" then start looking for a new yard and have a list of questions for the YO. If the answer is "yes" then unless you can have a conversation with your YO without getting emotional you should keep your head down and just get on with it.
 
Honey08 said:
We've just put 40 sheep on our field this winter, they have done a wonderful job. I would almost pay them to be here!



If you don't have a contract, you're paying rent just to be there, not for specific facilities. I guess the hose was repaired because its not hard carrying water for two horses, but water for 40 sheep is another matter, so it was a bit more needed!




Sorry, but me too. And if your YO does someone whose animals are getting hurt a favour, she must be pretty nice. Turn it around, if your horse was injured, and needed seperating from the others, and she said "can't do it, there are sheep there and their owner will complain.." how would you feel?

As for the insurance issue, you certainly won't get your livery for that price once that is added on!

Sorry but they are all pretty much the same price in our area unless you are full livery...

Sorry - I guess I will go on your "negative comments" list, but you do seem to be totally wrapped up in yourself.
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I'm not wrapped up in myself, we are just a bit miffed that the sheep have moved on and are more of a priority than us paying rent. I guess that's what happens with no contract...If no contract then I don't have do anything else apart from look after the welfare of my horse and that is all...

Even the girls that moved off feel the same...
 
eggs said:
Assuming that it is advice you want and not just agreement that you have been badly treated then you have to decide whether you want to stay at your current yard or not. If the answer is "no" then start looking for a new yard and have a list of questions for the YO. If the answer is "yes" then unless you can have a conversation with your YO without getting emotional you should keep your head down and just get on with it.
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She's not the YO she doesn't own it, sorry I was calling that out of respect, she's probably only YM by default really, she collects the rent and gives it the person that owns the yard...

I was thinking, I could ask the farmer who has 3 massive fields behind the yard if we could use one of them for the horses whilst his are being looked after (not that there is any grass left now) on ours...
 
Further to my post "Advice" I do feel some of you should check Forum Rules, Clause 4 4.3 Do not post rude or abusive messages - including personal attacks on other Users.

I shall be quoting all the personal attacks to the forum...
 
Who has made rude or aggressiveposts, or made personal aattacks?

This forum is known for good old fashioned straight talking - it may well be that the majorities no nonsense approach may not be for you, perhaps........
 
leanda said:
Further to my post "Advice" I do feel some of you should check Forum Rules, Clause 4 4.3 Do not post rude or abusive messages - including personal attacks on other Users.

I shall be quoting all the personal attacks to the forum...
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Oh dear. There haven't been any personal attacks. I do worry about some people.
 
amymay said:
Who has made rude or aggressiveposts, or made personal aattacks?

This forum is known for good old fashioned straight talking - it may well be that the majorities no nonsense approach may not be for you, perhaps........
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It was advice I was seeking, not to be called a petulant child...Being wrapped up in myself...Move off the yard ... Can't reason with stupid...I do worry about some people....I'd say they were pretty personal!

They have been some very supportive posts that took the time to think about what I was saying of which I thank them...
 
I was the one who said you seemed wrapped up in yourself, and the fact that, after pages and pages of advice, that that is one of the only thing you're remembering, doesn't alter my view. By all means press the button if thats what you deem a major insult! Goodness me, it really isn't hard to offend you!
 
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