Advise needed, bad behaviour in horse.

[Old bird]

Hello, not a new member, new account . I need advise, which I know you lot will give me,I need to cut my number of horses down, I have a turning 7 year old who is lightly backed at ago 5 1/2 , but I suspect he has ulcers, a couple of months into backing he would shake his head when I put a head collar on him, which then progressed into lifting a back leg up when I brushed him, which then progressed into pawing at the ground/ trying to bite me/ headshaking/ ears back, this is just brushing him ( he actually wasn’t to bad to hack , which he has only lightly done ) , anyway, I haven’t ridden him for 7 months , his behaviour has got worse, he will put his ears back and try to bite me when I walk past his stable door , before he reacted to being poked in his girth area, now if I poke him in his neck/leg/face/stomach anywhere, he will put his ears back and bite,and muscle twitch ,he will throw his head in the air when I try to put his head collar on, I’ve tried him on ponese/ nexium ,no difference. I have had the vet to do his teeth and general check, he was the one to suggest ulcers , I’m not insured so can not afford to pay thousands on treatments, so my questions are, does this sound like ulcers or anything else I’m missing, how can I sell a horse like this he’s not worth a lot, and I would be scared he got into the wrong hands, if someone bought him could they insure him , then get him looked at. I’ve had him from a foal he lives out in a herd, free acces to stable block , haylage always available as well as a large field.

 

[McGrools]

Only a thought. I wonder if this is dominant behaviour? Maybe he has learned he can scare you by being grumpy. I watch a lot of Steve Young horsemanship on YouTube, and he would teach the horse to respect you as the leader rather than being allowed to push you about. Basic manners.
Obviously after all usual checks have been done, but it doesn’t sound like the horse has been overworked to a point he is in physical pain, esp after a break. Sounds like he needs reminding of his manners to me.
Best of luck xx

 

[Patterdale]

Why not give him a course of omeprazole and see if things improve? Or do a bute trial?
Both relatively inexpensive things which will give you more information either way.

 

[meleeka]

How is he with the other horses? Does he look contented when you aren’t trying to do something with him?

 

[ycbm]

if someone bought him could they insure him , then get him looked at.

Not legally, no, it's a pre-existing condition.
.

 

[AmyMay]

Presumably you can afford a vet visit at the least?

 

[ycbm]

Can I clarify, he's been giving you signs of discomfort for over a year, and had no investigations by a vet, the vet that did his teeth said he thought he had ulcers and you aren't planning to have him scoped?

It seems pretty obvious from what you have described that you should follow your vet's opinion and have him scoped/treated for ulcers. It sounds as though he is in a great amount of pain and has been for a considerable time. I hope you can get him some help soon and I suspect you will find him a changed horse.

You might, though, then need to change his management or treat what has caused the ulcers.

 

[DabDab]

If your vet thinks ulcers then you could just treat for ulcers without scoping (most vets are happy to do that) as a way of keeping cost down.

Personally I can't imagine why you would want to sell before trying some basic treatments, as doesn't seem particularly fair on the poor horse, but I guess with full disclosure someone kind might take a punt on him

 

[Old bird]

How is he with the other horses? Does he look contented when you aren’t trying to do something with him?

He gets on well with my other horses , yes contented, grazes with them, plays with them,

Not legally, no, it's a pre-existing condition.
.

But no vet knows of his condition, so it’s not on his vet record, so surely someone else can insure him and treat.

Why not give him a course of omeprazole and see if things improve? Or do a bute trial?
Both relatively inexpensive things which will give you more information either way.

I thought omeprazole was expensive, will a vet be will willing to give me a prescription without scoping, good idea about the bute trial.

Only a thought. I wonder if this is dominant behaviour? Maybe he has learned he can scare you by being grumpy. I watch a lot of Steve Young horsemanship on YouTube, and he would teach the horse to respect you as the leader rather than being allowed to push you about. Basic manners.
Obviously after all usual checks have been done, but it doesn’t sound like the horse has been overworked to a point he is in physical pain, esp after a break. Sounds like he needs reminding of his manners to me.
Best of luck xx

Thankyou for replying, this is what my husband thinks, he is very low mileage, just gentle hacking, I haven’t even cantered on him yet.

 

[cauda equina]

One of mine became uncharacteristically grumpy and nippy
The vet thought ulcers were a possibility, but didn't think he was bad enough to warrant scoping and recommended Acid Ease
A tub of that did the trick and we've had no more problems. I keep him on aloe vera juice as a precaution now

 

[I'm Dun]

Esomeprazole treats ulcers and can be bought without a prescription from supermarkets, and cheaper in bulk on line. Theres plenty of research showing it works and telling you the dosage. It's not legal as far as I know, although maybe a grey area as its not prescription. I'll be honest, I didn't look into that aspect of it as it wasn't a consideration for me. It costs about £30 a month and works.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

When I had a grumpy horse that I thought might have ulcers, I gave her aloe Vera juice. If it hadn't worked I would have got the vet but it did work. So long as I never missed a dose, she wasn't grumpy.
I don't insure but I do think that if we opt not to do so, we have to ve prepared to get out our wallets and pay for vet treatment ourselves. We can't just tell the horse he will have to.put up with it.

 

[Melody Grey]

As mentioned above, aloe Vera is great stuff and does work provided the ulcers aren’t severe or infected (both of which need medicating properly).

I’d be cautious about a bute trial if you suspect ulcers since it can really irritate the stomach. Danilon is kinder, but I’m not sure by how much and how effective that would be.

You can also consider promoting good gut balance through brewers yeast and other supplements which can help, some of which can be inexpensive.

I think you need to scope- given the cost in treating, I think you’d struggle to even give away a blatantly ulcery horse and where he might end up as a result doesn’t bare thinking about.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think if I where you I would do a gastroguard trial .
Yes it’s desirable to do the scope but if vets agreeable I would try a course of gastroguard

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

But no vet knows of his condition, so it’s not on his vet record, so surely someone else can insure him and treat.

Wow! And we all complain about dodgy dealers, never mind private sellers! Would you really do that to the poor horse rather than possibly relieve his pain ASAP whilst he is still in your ownership? And push him on to someone else to pick up the vet bill? Apart from anything else extremely dishonest and that is also a very good example of why insurance for vet fees is becoming less and less viable for amatuer horse owners. Poor flippin horse, hope your other horses don't become in need of veterinary care, God help them.

 

[Rowreach]

But no vet knows of his condition, so it’s not on his vet record, so surely someone else can insure him and treat.

Wow! And we all complain about dodgy dealers, never mind private sellers! Would you really do that to the poor horse rather than possibly relieve his pain ASAP whilst he is still in your ownership? And push him on to someone else to pick up the vet bill? Apart from anything else extremely dishonest and that is also a very good example of why insurance for vet fees is becoming less and less viable for amatuer horse owners. Poor flippin horse, hope your other horses don't become in need of veterinary care, God help them.

You see I've carefully avoided posting on this thread since seeing it when the OP first posted, because I was spitting tacks at the fact that it has had a known issue for some time that hasn't been dealt with, and the OP is now trying to pass on the problem to someone else. But that bit that Mrs.J has highlighted has sent me over the edge.

 

[Equi]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

You see I've carefully avoided posting on this thread since seeing it when the OP first posted, because I was spitting tacks at the fact that it has had a known issue for some time that hasn't been dealt with, and the OP is now trying to pass on the problem to someone else. But that bit that Mrs.J has highlighted has sent me over the edge.

Bad enough to buy a horse that you can't afford vet bills for - but to breed one that you can't afford! Leaves me (almost)

 

[Old bird]

But no vet knows of his condition, so it’s not on his vet record, so surely someone else can insure him and treat.

Wow! And we all complain about dodgy dealers, never mind private sellers! Would you really do that to the poor horse rather than possibly relieve his pain ASAP whilst he is still in your ownership? And push him on to someone else to pick up the vet bill? Apart from anything else extremely dishonest and that is also a very good example of why insurance for vet fees is becoming less and less viable for amatuer horse owners. Poor flippin horse, hope your other horses don't become in need of veterinary care, God help them.

Did you read my post, I would tell any one that was interested in him his problems, you aren’t living in my shoes at this present moment in time, don’t judge.

 

[ycbm]

⁰But no vet knows of his condition, so it’s not on his vet record, so surely someone else can insure him and treat.

That's called fraud.

I'm afraid I would be banned if I told you what I would call someone who had an unhappy horse with obvious problems untreated for over a year and then tried to pass it on to someone else while encouraging them to commit insurance fraud to sort out its problems.
.

 

[AmyMay]

Op, if you can’t afford a vet for even the simplest of investigations (or are just simply not prepared to pay) then I’d suggest giving the hunt a call and having it shot - it seems like the easiest solution.

 

[4Hoofed]

Hi, I work for an insurance company and just a high ho warning, I don’t work in equine, however I will tell you as fraud is such big money they are really cracking down on stuff like this, and boy the stuff the cyber guys can find from your public information you pc/phone shares when you click online… i’d maybe not share the fact you plan on committing fraud or encouraging others to do so on a open public forum. And presuming you sell to an honest and good person they may get tangled up in a fraud investigation. Fraud is fraud. It’s not a 3rd parties fault, the insurers fault or the horses fault you weren’t covering your bases.

And from a moral point of view treat the poor sod for ulcers. Talk to your vet explain you can’t afford investigate but they’ve agreed the symptoms match already. (Which also may be noted on your file if it’s discussed… so might not be so straightforward to pass off to someone) realistically you can try acid ease and save up for treatment? Or full disclose and hope someone pities them. I mean honestly you’re gonna be giving them away.

 

[ycbm]

Hi, I work for an insurance company and just a high ho warning, I don’t work in equine, however I will tell you as fraud is such big money they are really cracking down on stuff like this, and boy the stuff the cyber guys can find from your public information you pc/phone shares when you click online… i’d maybe not share the fact you plan on committing fraud or encouraging others to do so on a open public forum. And presuming you sell to an honest and good person they may get tangled up in a fraud investigation. Fraud is fraud. It’s not a 3rd parties fault, the insurers fault or the horses fault you weren’t covering your bases.

I also wouldn't bet on it not being on his record. The vet who commented that the horse possibly had ulcers might well have noted that he made that observation.
.

 

[4Hoofed]

I also wouldn't bet on it not being on his record. The vet who commented that the horse possibly had ulcers might well have noted that he made that observation.
.

Exactly. I worked the pet side at my employers once upon a time. You’d be surprised at what vets write down, especially if there has been enough of a conversation for them to give an opinion. That’s them covering their backs. Ie in this situation where someone sells this poor animal without disclosing then in 3 months time it hurts someone and new owner comes looking, OP claims it was fine and dandy talk to my vet

On a slightly more amusing note I’ve seen lots of fluffy’s owner says they’re in a bad mood, don’t like certain flavour food, the colour purple etc it’s quite cute.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Did you read my post, I would tell any one that was interested in him his problems, you aren’t living in my shoes at this present moment in time, don’t judge.

I will judge, you will not dictate my opinion. Don't post your issues with your inability to take responsibility for the care and welfare of animals in your ownership if you haven't even got the balls to accept the opinions of others with higher standards of acceptable equine welfare and moral compass than you appear to have.

 

[JenJ]

Hello, not a new member, new account . I need advise, which I know you lot will give me,I need to cut my number of horses down, I have a turning 7 year old who is lightly backed at ago 5 1/2 , but I suspect he has ulcers, a couple of months into backing he would shake his head when I put a head collar on him, which then progressed into lifting a back leg up when I brushed him, which then progressed into pawing at the ground/ trying to bite me/ headshaking/ ears back, this is just brushing him ( he actually wasn’t to bad to hack , which he has only lightly done ) , anyway, I haven’t ridden him for 7 months , his behaviour has got worse, he will put his ears back and try to bite me when I walk past his stable door , before he reacted to being poked in his girth area, now if I poke him in his neck/leg/face/stomach anywhere, he will put his ears back and bite,and muscle twitch ,he will throw his head in the air when I try to put his head collar on, I’ve tried him on ponese/ nexium ,no difference. I have had the vet to do his teeth and general check, he was the one to suggest ulcers , I’m not insured so can not afford to pay thousands on treatments, so my questions are, does this sound like ulcers or anything else I’m missing, how can I sell a horse like this he’s not worth a lot, and I would be scared he got into the wrong hands, if someone bought him could they insure him , then get him looked at. I’ve had him from a foal he lives out in a herd, free acces to stable block , haylage always available as well as a large field.

I think perhaps you may need to consider selling one of your other horses if you need to cut down, at least until the health issues with your poorly horse have been resolved. If they don't have health issues they may be easier to sell?

 

[nutjob]

You can get 14 syringes of gastrogard for £250, obviously you need a prescription from the vets on top of this but you are complaining about having to spend £100's not £1000's. If you can't or wont spend this amount of money on an unwell, in pain horse then you do need a major rethink. All your current horses are at risk of being denied veterinary treatment if they become ill or have an injury so unless you're prepared to get a part time job or can make a significant reduction to your own expenditure then you need to seriously consider selling any horses which don't have issues. You will have the money from the sales and also reduced outgoings to provide proper care for those remaining in your ownership.

In the short term can you get a credit card to help the current horse which needs veterinary attention?

 

[ycbm]

Hello, not a new member, new account ..... you aren’t living in my shoes at this present moment in time, don’t judge me.

I'm sorry you seem to be in a bad place. You don't want to be known. Not identifying who you are on the forum and using the emoji of peeping out through the fingers of your hands over your face seems to suggest that you knew you were going to get some flack for what you were about to post. You’ll get more sympathy if you can help us understand why you haven't tried to find out why your horse has been becoming increasingly angry since he was backed, and now intend to sell him without doing the basics of treating ulcers.

I'm afraid I can't help suspecting there's more going on with this horse, which possibly you aren't even aware of. The lifestyle you describe should not have brought on ulcers. You've owned him since he was a foal. He was backed at 5½ but he very soon exhibited problems and the riding tailed off quickly.

Ulcers are normally secondary to something else. In the absence of management issues, physical pain is the most likely cause and his problems appear to have been triggered by being ridden. This raises serious questions about whether he is, for example, one of those horses who were born with kissing spines who is never going to be able to be ridden pain free.

What I'm coming to is that it really isn't in this horse's interests to be passed on without finding out what his problems are when ridden. He would be in grave danger of ending up passed from pillar to post until someone did the right thing by him.

I do hope he finds a responsible new owner if you have no funds to deal with this difficult situation.
.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Go on Abler and get the ulcer bundle it's 30 days of omeprazole and sucralfate for just over £300.

 

[Nari]

Go on Abler and get the ulcer bundle it's 30 days of omeprazole and sucralfate for just over £300.

It's also illegal to import. Years ago I bought some and luckily for me when a parcel was intercepted at Customs they just sent a warning letter as it was a first offence, but they can issue hefty fines or even a prison sentence.