advise needed problems with 5yr old

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piggy1

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She has a problem accepting the bit, fine until you need to take the contact then she opens her mouth and runs, when I use more contact she throws her head about and threatens to go up.

We had a problems running through shoulder and taking my knees off in school, it is slightly better now when using draw reins and spurs but canter is horrific!

Started jumping her to see if it improved but no better! Took her to show to trot round and maybe do some small fences in clear round thinking she might be better away from home with something else to think about but had no control in trot so decided not to do anymore before working on her at home!

She has had her back done and her teeth which she had problems with! I've tryed loads of bits, with/without flash, I've lunged her in pessoa. She has improved but then at show she was really bad!

Help don't know what to do? - she is a home bred mare and has an amazing jump and I know she could be very good!
 
A friend has said he will help and I could send her there for couple of weeks, at a price - but he really likes her (lost some trust in so called friends over the years!) got a feeling he will drag it out to keep ride!
 
I think you have to go back to basics wiyth her. You may be highly experienced in which case, please don't be offended but a 5 year old should not be ridden in draw reins & spurs in canter to correct a bitting/basic schooling issue, you also mention trying lots of bits and using a pessoa, your horse is probably just very confused.
I have a 5 year old pony. He is a strong pony physically, but still growing, he is not on the bit much and sometimes opens his mouth, he also falls out through his shouldersthough not so much now, and sometimes collapses onto the bit. These things are all quite normal at his stage of development.
At present we concentrate on going forwards, working through from behind and are getting there with lateral work and responsiveness (his rider is 11 so it's slow progress).
At the end of this winter I expect him to have changed quite dramatically, he will have developed some self carriage and pretty much be on the bit all the time, it will have taken 18 months, as he's been a late developer.
Just though this might put your situation in perspective. You have to give babies time to develop self carriage and straightness and to learn to trust and accept the bit. My advise would be to find a good instructor probably who has proven results with youngsters.
 
Its a hard situ because I have been very patient and taking things slowly - its been over a year now! She goes in a nice outline and uses herself. The draw reins where only suggested to me a month ago so when she decided to swing her head about run i could just close my hand and keep her there a bit easier (not tight). I don't use the horrible things normally!
 
I was probably being over harsh. I keep looking at our pony and wondering when he's going to go in more of an outline, then as soon as he looks in a better frame, his bum goes up two inches and he's back on the forehand
confused.gif

I would try a different trainer, a new approach can work wonders.
Some horses are just so sensitive in their mouths and she may be just one that needs the lightest contact.
What bit have you got her in at the moment?
 
ps. The person who suggested draw reins is supposed to be good at producing youngsters he rides youngsters for show jumpers including an accredited trainer! But not sure if doing right?
 
I would get a new trainer maybe a dressage one - i found with my boy who evaded the bit, ran through the shoulder swung his bum in etc etc etc that my dressage trainer has done wonders with him and me i must say !!

What bit do you currently use?? x
 
I am happy to use draw reins, if I can see the purpose they will serve. I would expect them to be the wrong thing for your horse though. She sounds like she's backing off the contact and not comfortable in her mouth. I would go right back to basics, stick her in the simplest possible bit and ride her in a consistent, light contact.
(my preference would be a straight bar rubber/nathe snaffle with full cheeks)
I would not use the pessoa either as it does work on the mouth intermittently and your horse sounds like she needs absolutely consistent contact.
I would be inclined to lunge her in kind side reins and work her through transitions and challenge her a little till she stops arguing and acepts that the bit is just a guide for her.
When you ride her you then have to adopt a similar approach, riding within a soft but consistent frame, as if your hands/arms/reins are the side reins and keeping them in a similar position for a while.
Just a thought, I'm sure lots of others have opinions too.
 
Its ok, the annoying thing is goes lovely when she isn't being asked to turn slow down or stop! I love riding light but I need to turn and stop! Myler snaffle (not sure what the name of it is!) at min, month ago straight bar rubber snaffle, started with happy mouth jointed snaffle with cheeks. tried bits with tongue port bit in them (she does curl her tongue up sometimes!)
 
You say she goes lovely but not when asked to turn or stop. This makes me believe she is being ridden front to back - mouth to hind quarters. Stopping and turning should be ridden from your legs and seat. You need to gain her trust again in your hands, and ride from your seat and legs when turning and stopping. How much do you school her? Is she stiff and a bit fed up? Can you hack her out, ride her in straight lines, practice slowing and stopping in straight lines out on your hacks. I would suggest you forget shows for the moment, by all means take her schooling to new places but the pressure of a competition isn't going to help either of you right now. Draw reins and spurs sound harsh for her as she seems to be trying to tell you something isn't right.
 
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Its ok, the annoying thing is goes lovely when she isn't being asked to turn slow down or stop! I love riding light but I need to turn and stop! Myler snaffle (not sure what the name of it is!) at min, month ago straight bar rubber snaffle, started with happy mouth jointed snaffle with cheeks. tried bits with tongue port bit in them (she does curl her tongue up sometimes!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea mine does this - i started by boy off in a training Nueue Schule bit it was great and really helped him take a contact - he loved it !! just practising your transitions - have you tried long reining your mare - so same principle and you will have the contact throught the lunge reins ??
 
Thank you everyone! I only school her a couple of days a week and hack her out (only 30mins tho!) other days - I try to avoid taking any of my horses in school too often! She does it out hacking too! She has got a bit full of herself at min which has made situ worse!

To be honest I have had a lot of training for my show jumping but not with real babies! Someone else backed her as a 3year old for me, took her on moors etc, she didn't take her in school only lunged her not sure how much long reining she did.

I have never really done any long reining (I would rather let someone who knows what they are doing do it then me do it wrong - if that makes sense). My other half has but only with ponies and not sure how good he is so I won't let him!) I have ridden many youngsters on but not backed - if that makes sense!

I wih she could talk
 
Ive never really long reined but its not that hard to be honest - Ive just started doing this with my youngster !! do you have an older horse you could practise on first !! Just stick to walk to start with ??
 
We long reined her last night she was really good! Think as she only had her back done again recently I will just hack her and long rein her for week or 2! Then try schooling her again to see if any different! She is a bit thick skinned, I have to use a fair bit of leg on her and I can give her a good kick and she doesn't respond, so need to get her more responsive to the leg. Maybe I will take her right back to little as poss tack and loads of transitions. So I have a lot to work on! Do you think this seems like the right thing to do ??
 
Sounds like a balance problem which is VERY common in this age group. it is easy to look at others riding 4/5yr olds see them going "beautifully" and expect yours should be going the same, but actually the rider on the horse going "beautifully" maybe doing alot of cover up work!!

Loads of slow transitions, walk/trot, trot walk, and just simple changes up and down one pace, not trot/halt for example. Work on really slowing the tempo through your seat and weight aids, really slowing the trot down and almost "melting" into walk,but keeping legs on so she doesnt fall on her nose, and so you use very very little rein aid. Then ask for a forward and prompt response off your leg back into trot. This helps to get her to take weight behind and lighten her front end. As she gets the idea os soft but forward downward transitions, and responsive upwards transitions, you can start to work within the pace. SO slow the trot right down through your seat again, slow the tempo of your rising and she'll follow, and just before you reach the point of walk, push her back to working trot. This again helps balance and engagement, and hands should be kept still with a soft consistant contact. Also starting leg yield on a circle, so spiralling ina nd out, will help with her balance, lighten the forehand and make her more responsive off the leg.

Hope this makes sense! All has helped my 5yr old alot, and he souunded very similar to your girl....
 
From what you have said your main problems are that she is not accepting the contact therefore not infront of your leg.

You can kick all you want but if the horse does not accept the contact it will not respond to the leg as it can't carry the hind leg due to the fact that it is hollow in the framework.

Falling through the shoulder and running are signs of losing balance, someone earlier mentioned that you have to use your leg and seat for turning and stopping which is correct but didn't mention how you do that, you squeese with your thigh and knee to stop the energy getting from the hind leg through to the front end thereby causing the horse to slow/stop by carrying itself with the hind leg not my pulling on the bit, often when the bit is pulled to stop, the horse will lift it's head and drop the belly therefore not allowing the hind leg to come under the body and support the weight, so the only way the horse can balance itself is to go faster.

I would say the first thing you need to do is get the horse used to a contact, so stand in the school mounted and take up a firm contact and brace your hands into the base of the neck so that the horse feels it pulling against itself and that when it gives in the jaw it gets softness, she will probably throw herself around a bit, don't worry about that just sit still so she realises that it's all her doing, don't be tempted to put your leg on a that stage, if you try to hold your hands yourself you will end up pulling back and the horse will not realise that it is the one having to do the giving. You must thing of you hands as side reins they hold the contact but do not keep on pulling back.

When you have the jaw softness (and it will take a while) start moving in walk thinking of you hands as side reins so you hold the contact if she tugs but don't pull back, you must hold without pulling, then for turning use a half halt of a nudge with your inside leg followed by a firm squeese with the outside rein, you must use half halts all the time to help the balance but always use your inside leg first quickly followed by your outside rein.

Let me know how you get on and if you are clear about what I have said.
 
Thank you. I will try this and let you know how I get on! thank you been stuck in a rut, both could do with few lessons! but not sure who to go to anymore!
 
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