Advise regarding youngster

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Sara1210

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Hi guys,

This is Coco, she is just about to celebrate her 2nd birthday (19th July) I have had her since she was 13 months so nearly a year.
In this time I have taught her to accept fly masks, spray, whips, be touched and groomed all over, pick up feet, yield forequarters and hindquarters, back up, walk and trot in hand with me running alongside her. She will walk and trot over poles. We have done lots of walking around the tracks and in the forest, alone and in company with one other horse. I have desensitised to tarpaulins, flags, umbrellas, plastic bags. It’s all just been about everyday stuff and trying to build her confidence. We have a lovely bond.

In March I moved her to a new livery as I’m not in a position to have 2 horses and I wanted her to have company so this new livery she could be in a herd. So she is living in a herd with 7 other mares and she is so content. When she first went into the herd at the beginning of April she became herd bound and did not want to leave them so I would take her out the field everyday and slower worked on getting her further and further away from them until I could get eventually get her down to her stable without her panicking. This took me a couple of weeks but it paid off because now she is happy to come out the field twice a day and to come down for breakfast and be groomed etc.

The past couple of weeks we seem to have hit a hurdle and I’m a little unsure how to deal with it because I don’t know if she is testing me and trying to be “boss”

I pick her feet out everyday, she is currently living out 24/7 for the summer and stabled overnight in the winter. So a couple of weeks ago she started to walk off and pull her foot away from me when I pick her feet up, I’ve spent the past few months having her in her stable loose while I groom and pick out feet and usually she is fine but lately she refuses to stand to have her feet picked so I try once or twice then I have been tying her up and doing them and making a big fuss if she stands nicely to let me do it.
I gave her a shower in that heatwave last week and when she realised I wasn’t going to let her walk away from me she put her head into my chest and almost pushed me over!
Yesterday we was in the school and I was walking along side her and told her to trot and she reared, I’m sure she was threatening me as she was waving her front feet about. Then I took her for a walk yesterday afternoon and she called to the other girls once we was out of sight from them and then spun round on the lead so she was facing me as if she was about to bolt back the way we came, snaked her head about and didn’t quite rear, it was more a bunny hop off her front feet but the intention was there. So I yanked on her head collar a couple of times and when she stood still I turned her round and walked her back the way we came. I didn’t put her straight back out with the girls I took her to her stable and groomed her then put her back.
I need to just add, she is not only a baby but she is also in season, although pretty much finished, they have also been moved into a new field 2 days ago that has lots of fresh grass and it was very windy when we went out for the walk yesterday.
We have a trainer coming out on Thursday but I just wanted to see what you guys could suggest or think it could be? Is she playing up because of age, grass, dominance or have I misread signs and she is trying to tell me something?
I won’t train with violence, I want her to trust me.
Sorry for such a long post ?
 

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Totally agree with Quigleyandme regarding all the work you’ve done with her so far. You seem to have a really good understanding of how to work with her. It does sound to me as though she could be testing you. Having had time now as part of a herd, she will be learning the language of hierarchy and possibly trying it out on you to get her own way.Possibly her behaviour is due to a greater awareness and feeling insecure away from her herd. I’m happy to be corrected on what I’ve said but 5hat is how it seems to me. I think you need to firmly and fairly put her in her place, as she would be in the herd, so she respects what you are asking. Take a step back towards the basics in her training and reinforce some of your previous groundwork lessons. Moving her feet around is a good thing to do - some good videos on YouTube ( Joseph Newcombe, Michael Peace, etc)You need to insist that she does as you ask and become a bit more insistent (without Violence of course!) hopefully your trainer will have some strategies to help you. Keep safe and wear a hat if you don’t already.
 
Thank you both, I did think she probably was testing me.
We will go back to basics and reinforce what she knows for a while and I will have a look at those people recommended on YouTube.
 
Baby horses will often be little angels when they are small, weak and unconfident. When they grow a bit, become stronger and more confident they can often become cocky and will push you. You just have to be firm, consistent and keep reminding them of their manners. It sounds like you are doing all the right things so just keep it up and she will soon settle back down.
 
You say you moved her so she could be in a herd. Was she ever kept alone?

I have had to deal with rearing youngsters and tugging on their headcollar once they are back down doesn't really teach them anything. You need to develop a good eye for the clues that they are *thinking* about going up and excellent, swift timing so you can act when you see the clues so they don't actually rear. With my grey she would do a quick pause before rearing and that was the moment that I needed to promptly send her forwards and cut the rear off. A long rope and a dressage whip are essential here and also wear gloves and a hard hat. I hope that your desensitisation work hasn't caused her to ignore or become shut down towards the movement of a whip (I have met that and it's a real bind when you need to use the whip as an extension of your arm - not to beat the horse, just to say 'move forwards' normally with no contact at all).

You have done a lot with your young horse. I do feel that bar normal everyday care, maybe give her a bit of a break to let her grow and be a young horse. Yes absolutely continue training her to come into her stable quietly, but I would leave the tarps etc... alone for now.
 
When we bought our young Ardennes mare at two, the wise old horseman we bought her from gave us one piece of advice: " Do not ask her for anything new when she first comes into season", meaning she would be all over the place at that time until she grew up a bit and her hormones settled. How right he was. We learnt to be very non confrontational and demand very little when she was in season during that first year we had her. By the following year, she had had a lot more discipline put into her and she would behave even when she felt really scatty. You say your girl was in season, I would just give her a holiday when this happens this year.
 
Yes she was in a paddock of her own, other horses were around her but she had her own paddock.
To be honest she isn’t bothered by a whip, actually if I try to put pressure on her to make her move forward with a whip she pretty much ignores it because I won’t hit her with it. I’ll tap to bug her but I won’t hit. She will move off away from a spinning end of a rope though.
 
Meowy Catkin said:
I have had to deal with rearing youngsters and tugging on their headcollar once they are back down doesn't really teach them anything. You need to develop a good eye for the clues that they are *thinking* about going up and excellent, swift timing so you can act when you see the clues so they don't actually rear. With my grey she would do a quick pause before rearing and that was the moment that I needed to promptly send her forwards and cut the rear off. A long rope and a dressage whip are essential here and also wear gloves and a hard hat. I hope that your desensitisation work hasn't caused her to ignore or become shut down towards the movement of a whip (I have met that and it's a real bind when you need to use the whip as an extension of your arm - not to beat the horse, just to say 'move forwards' normally with no contact at all).

You have done a lot with your young horse. I do feel that bar normal everyday care, maybe give her a bit of a break to let her grow and be a young horse. Yes absolutely continue training her to come into her stable quietly, but I would leave the tarps etc... alone for now.
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She does seem to freeze but then goes up so I don’t know if I will be quick enough to stop her going up. She hasn’t done it enough for me to know. But I would love to know what to do if she does go up.
Do I wait till all 4 feet are on the floor then back her up?
 
planete said:
When we bought our young Ardennes mare at two, the wise old horseman we bought her from gave us one piece of advice: " Do not ask her for anything new when she first comes into season", meaning she would be all over the place at that time until she grew up a bit and her hormones settled. How right he was. We learnt to be very non confrontational and demand very little when she was in season during that first year we had her. By the following year, she had had a lot more discipline put into her and she would behave even when she felt really scatty. You say your girl was in season, I would just give her a holiday when this happens this year.
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Yes I noticed very quickly that she could be difficult when she came into season. Mostly the day before and the first 2-3 days and then she would be fine again.
 
Sara1210 said:
She does seem to freeze but then goes up so I don’t know if I will be quick enough to stop her going up. She hasn’t done it enough for me to know. But I would love to know what to do if she does go up.
Do I wait till all 4 feet are on the floor then back her up?
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No, the opposite, you want *forwards* motion. I would be insisting on forwards when she looks like she might, possibly be thinking about freezing. If she does start to rock her weight onto her hinds, I'd be really strongly insisting on *forwards* not just with my body language but voice too ('walk on' said very firmly having trained the horse to understand the command). If she did go up then she'd be lunging a circle around me pronto, no messing.

Don't worry about her not liking you if you correct her behaviour. I've had to do some pretty serious insisting that my lot behave correctly and they are praised when they do it right, so it is clear to them what I want. That clarity means that they know what's what and that there is no confusion. I think that a confused horse tends to be a stressed horse.

ETA - just seen your answer to the question, will go and read it now.
 
Sara1210 said:
Yes she was in a paddock of her own, other horses were around her but she had her own paddock.
To be honest she isn’t bothered by a whip, actually if I try to put pressure on her to make her move forward with a whip she pretty much ignores it because I won’t hit her with it. I’ll tap to bug her but I won’t hit. She will move off away from a spinning end of a rope though.
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It will make things more difficult for you that she was on her own. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the root of the issue you have taking her away from the herd. You will need to do a lot of repetition and building up to get her to believe that she will go back to them after she is taken away.

I did wonder if she was numb (for want of a better term) to the presence of a whip. You will need to work out what she moves away from that is easy and quick for you to use that will send her forwards - no messing. This is not about being mean, it is about training her not to rear in-hand which is essential for everyone's safety and for her future. She will only get bigger and stronger.

OK, so what about a lunge whip? You can certainly swish that behind her.
 
You've done everything (and more) that needs to be done with a young, unbroken horse, perhaps just leave her to be a horse for a while. It is possible to over train and sometimes being fussed with annoys horses, especially if they have horse stuff to do with their herd. Horses, being herd animals, will always prefer to be with their own. When I ran a biggish stud farm with 20 - 30 youngsters of all ages, we would handle the foals for a couple of weeks to get them catching, leading, tying and lifting feet, etc., and then only handle them every so often after that until they were ready for proper training.
 
Personally I don't like young horses to be overhandled, I much rather them out in a herd being horses. Ideally I wouldn't want her in at all over winter.
I'm afraid the time on individual turnout might come back to bite you.
 
She's not even 2 yet? Leave her be. You've taught her a lot, she won’t forget that, but she will do better just out with the herd and just being handled when needed.
Time and time again people over-handle young horses, they start to get a bit bigger, stronger and it all just ends up going wrong
 
It might be yard rules that she has to come in overnight, but yes I do agree that out 24/7 all year with a sensible herd and only basic handling would be ideal.
 
No she will pay no attention to a lunge whip, even hitting the floor behind her.
When you say keep her going forward do I just step ahead of her and tug on the lead while telling her walk on or do I put pressure behind her to make her walk on?
Meowy Catkin said:
It will make things more difficult for you that she was on her own. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the root of the issue you have taking her away from the herd. You will need to do a lot of repetition and building up to get her to believe that she will go back to them after she is taken away.

I did wonder if she was numb (for want of a better term) to the presence of a whip. You will need to work out what she moves away from that is easy and quick for you to use that will send her forwards - no messing. This is not about being mean, it is about training her not to rear in-hand which is essential for everyone's safety and for her future. She will only get bigger and stronger.

OK, so what about a lunge whip? You can certainly swish that behind her.
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I can’t leave her out all year, she has to come in overnight during the winter.
Having her in a paddock on her own was never my intention. Before I left the last yard we shared for a little while with another horse then they left that yard leaving her in the paddock on her own again. She had horses all around her just not in the paddock with her. That was never my choice, it was just the circumstance we ended up in hence the move. She isn’t herd bound anymore. If I walk up to the field she comes bounding over to see me and is happy to come out the field and usually go for a walk, go down to her stable or whatever. Yesterday she just was not comfortable going for a walk away from them but she does quite often.
 
Personally I feel some people can do too much with young horses and they should be left to be young horses in the field. That’s not to say they shouldn’t be able to lead, be brushed, have farrier and the hose on them (should it ever be needed) but other than that I just leave alone. They can become bored easily and that then can lead to more problems.

Mine are stabled when required, they actually love the peace so I’m not suggesting they need to be left completely. I think if there used to coming in and seeing yard life and what that entails than that’s pretty good experience in itself.
 
Don’t bug her when she’s in season .
I would just back off a little with leading and going in the school for the rest of summer and handle her just enough to do the important things and let her enjoy being a horse.
 
Sara1210 said:
No she will pay no attention to a lunge whip, even hitting the floor behind her.
When you say keep her going forward do I just step ahead of her and tug on the lead while telling her walk on or do I put pressure behind her to make her walk on?
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OK. I think it would be helpful to know exactly what desensitising work you did. Was there are 'flooding' involved?
 
Sara1210 said:
No she will pay no attention to a lunge whip, even hitting the floor behind her.
When you say keep her going forward do I just step ahead of her and tug on the lead while telling her walk on or do I put pressure behind her to make her walk on?
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You need to find a driving aid she responds to rather than trying to move her forward by tugging. The hand should be a guiding aid but pulling on horse's heads isn't helpful. If they don't respond to the directional cue of the lead rope then drive from behind. You mentioned a swinging rope - try that.

Re the desensitising - you want horses confident around tools but not indifferent to them. They still need to respect and respond to cues - incuding lunge whips - and those cues need to get pretty intense at times. I like training with kindness but if a horse decides it's going to take X amount of pressure to move forward instead of going backwards or up and you are only prepared to use a smaller amount then you have a problem. Think of it as ask nicely, ask firmly, insist. How do you 'insist' at the moment if you have to?
 
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The fact she does not understand what you want with the lunge whip is not good .
I would leave anything using the whip from now until you start the run up to backing hopefully she can start again then .
 
Goldenstar said:
The fact she does not understand what you want with the lunge whip is not good .
I would leave anything using the whip from now until you start the run up to backing hopefully she can start again then .
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I genuinely don’t think it’s that she doesn’t understand what I want from her she just does not move for a whip because she has no reason to worry about it.
 
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