AES Grading - Comments please

AndyPandy

AndyPandy

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I guess this post might belong in the breeding forum, but I wanted to see what everyone thought.
I went to an Anglo European Studbook (AES) stallion grading on Friday. I was just observing, but I was utterly disgusted by the way it was run. I just wanted to know what people thought about this, and if they knew anything about other studbooks in this country, or had any opinions themselves? I have listed a few things which I noticed below:

*The event was poorly run. It was held at Solihull, which is a great facility, but the organisation was so poor! They got further and further behind throughout the day. The show jumping course was not pre-planned, and was guessed by a group of people who didn't look like they knew what they were doing. Some young dressage horses were given FEI tests to learn, and were then told (as they entered the ring to perform the test) that they should do a freestyle routine (bearing in mind that these horses where 3-4 years old). Noone who was showing a stallion there seemed to know what was going on, as the event deviated more and more from the "strict timetable" that had been sent out.

*Everyone was judged by three SJ judges. So despite the fact that some stallions were trying to get graded for dressage, no specific dressage judge was present. The judges also showed a great deal of bias, being chummy with some owners (whose stallions graded) and nasty to others (whose stallions did not), both before and after the event.

*Nobody could work out why the horses that graded did it was clear to many that some absolutely stunning horses with a lot of talent were not graded, while others, who were OK, but often conformationally incorrect, graded easily. It almost seemed like the whole process was rather random.

Basically, the whole event was a joke, as far as I could see. I mean, what is the point of having a stallion graded if the grading body is poorly run? Surely that makes the grading worthless, and the status of graded stallions rather meaningless?

Anyway, as I say, I was an impartial observer, but I saw so many lovely, talented, conformationally exceptional horses on Friday, but few if any of them were graded by the AES. Any comments would be appreciated, as I am considering writing to H&H - How can the UK expect to compete with European-bred horses, when the standards of excellence in this country are so woefully low and random?
 
I think I will. I do want to hear some other opinions, comments from forum users too though...
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Surprised to hear this. I watched an AES grading show for show jumpers only at Towerlands a few years ago and it was very well run. The judges gave their opinions over the PA.
 
AES is a studbook which i have little regard for. Complete joke to be called a studbook in the first place IMO. I have my reasons but cant say on here!
 
hi
I am so glad an unbias person was watching.
I took my 3 yr old there, first time we had gone to a grading,
I had a very late entry and the lady managed to slip me in which i was very grateful for.
However, we have to have the horses 5* vetted, not one judge looked at my boys legs, confirmation ect,
which was very annoying as i was told to be ready at 9.15 and didnt go in til the end of all the 3 yr olds.
So then the loose jumping, some of the horses wouldnt even go into the fences as they were trying to get out of this tiny pen they had set up.
The corners were so tight it was differecult for them to get the horse round to the fences.
Again Kane (my horse) went last and the judges did not even care he was there. They had obviously already made their minds up.
The helpers were cracking the whips which scared nearly all the horses.
I just felt they had made their minds up before even looking at the horse.
One judge, who i won't name, was very rude, saying he couldnt be bothered to see anymore.

After paying £141 just for the entry i excepted to be told why my horse hadn't passed but we had no score sheets which i think is awful.
We all paid alot of money to be there and we dont even get told why are horses are "not good enough" to be aes stallions.
i have emailed aes and will phone tomorrow and keep phoning until they send my score sheet.
We are entitled to know the reasons, tht is why we paid this amount of money.

I agree with the comment on judges being bias, they were so obvious it was unreal, at least try and hide the fact.
And i would be very grateful for you to write to h&h and maybe the stud, not like they would care anyway.

thankyou for bringing this up, i was worried i was mad and being bias.
 
Well, I've written to H&H, and I e-mailed a copy of the letter to the editor. Haven't heard anything back yet (I will let you know if I do), and I'm not sure that they will publish it, but it's worth a go!

I think the more comments that appear on here, the more topical it may become, which might increase the chance of it being published. So any comments are welcome!

Jamie
 
I have heard that these gradings are very biased. Sometimes it is about their ability rather than their conformation. Howver in saying that to not even give people a look in, which is disgusting.
 
i have to say i have worked on several grading for the AES a couple of years ago. and they were a complete nightmare to do for a start you have anything from 15- 25 colts and stallions in one place thats enough to cause havoc on its own!
i can not comment on the grading you went to as i was not there and havent been to a grading as i said for at leat two years. but they always used to have at least one prue dressge jugde and then two or three jugdes form mainly a sj background. all the judges were top of there field athough i did feel at times some could be a little to harsh to the owners.
the grading are far form biased took three colts (breed by high up person in AES) as three year olds were thier to be graded and two failed the other was lisened (? from what i can rember.). they do have very strict standards it goes by temperament, conformation, past history (older horse) performance on that day. many owners feel they have a perfect stallion (especially if home breed!) how ever from the grading i saw many horses that didn't get though it was because they simply didn't have that x factor which for an approved stallion is essential however nice it may seem i know it sounds harsh but they have some of the best stallions in europe registed with them and thats why. if you feel you have a problem with the way it was run or the judging then contact them directly and voice your concerns with them i am sure they will listen to what you have to and answer any questions for you. they have a web site with contact details on.
 
Thanks for those comments. As I said, I did not, and will not, take anything for grading with the AES, so the matter of "my stallion is the best" did not come into it. What concerns me about the number of European graded stallions that have also been graded by the AES is this: I have heard, from a number of dutch sources that the AES has in the past attended gradings in Europe and offered immediate graded status to anything and everything of any quality. This does not make the AES a good stud book, it simply means that they are attempting to make themselves look good by having "world class stallions" on their books. Not a very meaningful marker of a good studbook.
 
Here are the results .

A couple of horses by Arko got approved, one owned by Nick Skelton the other Keely Durham and John whittaker - She might have a Welham replacement there.
 
I know of a very nice stallion that went to be graded as a 4 year old. He preformed impeccably apart from in the ‘warm up’ show jumping, where as the jumps were 1.20 (for a 4 year old) he backed off a couple. In the actual grading he did a clear round, very nicely, but the judges (who were understood by a German friend) Didn’t grade him because of the warm up (which they weren’t supposed to be judging on)
A complete nightmare….and the organisation was not very good either. It did come across as quite ‘who you know’ ish….
He got graded the following year!
 
The year that Jumbo graded as a BSH at Stoneleigh was very well run. This was also the case this year at the Trakhner show at Addington. The judges gave their comments at the end for both the mares & stallions. Both these shows were well run, so perhaps they can show the AES how to do it!!
 
I suspect not Andy Pandy.

Although I have spoken to some other people who were there, and they were pretty much in agreement with you about the way that things were done.

Try again next year, and put it down to experience.
 
It's interesting what you have said re the gradings and I do hope the letter gets published although I won't hold mt breath! Perhaps a letter to the columnist in H&H might go further to bring it to anyone's attention?

I also know of a cracking successful sport stallion that passed his two preliminary gradings hands down; had also some promising stock on the ground. He spent the winter doing dressage/hunting and consequently was quite fit for the final 'permanent' grading. He performed brilliantly, looked superb, as sound as a pound, everything went right for him - but guess what he failed on?!
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- he was too lean!
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He was a fit horse for goodness sake, he shouldn't have looked like a bullock, didn't they know what a fit horse should look like?! No one could believe it because he had been head and shoulders above everything else conformation and ability wise that day and the owner came away with a very sour taste in his mouth to say the least and several pounds out of pocket to add insult to injury. Needless to say other stallions that were graded that day all belonged to 'faces' but that stallion is performing well and producing superb athletic youngsters as well and that is only one stallion owner who is now convinced he will never try another grading again with anything.
 
Too lean!!!! at least nothing was hidden by fat.

The problem is that if you want to BSJA a stallion, even if you don't want to breed from it, the reg fee is £500 per year unless he is graded by a studbook that includes jumping in its grading. Once graded the membership drops down to the standard rate (£64)
 
This is one of the reasons why i decline to take mine to be graded.
Someone tried to lease one of mine said SHB needs stallions like this.
To which i replied , but horse has a serious back injury and cant be ridden anymore.
His reply was oh we can get round that i will take him and he will grade .
At which point i said Thanks but no thanks as i dont agree with the faces being put up and others put down.
You shouldnt have to put a face on the end of a horse to win/grade.
It makes a farce of it and so we refuse to get involved with it all.
We were invited to a parade at Catherston , which we declined as i said but stallions have never been graded and that was one of the conditions.
Jennie herself contacted me and said what a shame as they are such lovely stallions and there is so much rubbish about .
Says it all really doesnt it.
I think most of the societies are as bad.
 
It doesn't have to be graded with AES for the BSJA, any studbook will do as long as jumping forms part of the process.

It does seem an excessive money making scheme though
 
I cannot comment at the grading in question or any of the stallions but I have been to many AES grading shows over the years as a spectator looking for stallions for my mares. I have seen 'faces' stallions graded as well as being failed, I have seen shows run smoth and I have see shows run not so smooth. I was at another grading show at Towerlands the other week and only stayed a short time because let's face facts..................90% of stallions put forward should NOT be stallions if we are looking at Improving the quality of Showjumping horses we breed in this country.
Many 'faces' have stallions graded pure and simply bcause they have invested in horses and bloodlines and the stallions are better quality (I agree not all the times but many) and are produced properly.
I have seen many disapointed people as they have a lovely horse but it was NOT stallion material, have good enough bloodlines, or has not been produced properly and they find this fact disapointing.

Over the years looking at showjumping stallions at the AES I would say at every grading there are only a handful that in my personal opionion should be graded the rest should be gelded if we are looking at producing quality showjumping horses.

Now there may be cases for some stallions to be graded for producing quality General Purpose horses (rather than performance) however I do not know that the AES caters for them.

I have also been to gradings abroad and you then realize how far behind we really are. Out of all the hundreds of stallions in ths country I would say thre are about 10 I would consider using and the chances are I would still go abroad.
 
Well, surprise, surprise - my letter was not published. And H&H published their own glowing report of the whole event. Having spoken to various trainers and breeders here and around Europe, they have unanimously made it clear that they all consider the AES to be a poorly run organisation, and gradings by the AES, worthless.

Another European breeder, said to me "You want to know why the rest of Europe doesn't take Britain's breeding seriously? It's because of studbooks like the AES (and many other British studbooks which he listed)".

Going off on a slight tangent, why does everyone here think that we are so far behind? I have a long list of reasons why I think, and know we are (as a nation) such poor horse breeders... but would like to hear your opinions.

Lastly, Admin - can we please have a breeding board in the forum?

Cheers,

Jamie
 
I am not heavily involved with the breeding side of things but all I can see that is happening is that people are using crap mares and crap stallions. Or crap mares with good stallions. But must importantly the standard of most international dressage and SJ horses/riders and in the UK is a bit of a joke compared to the Europeans so why should the Europeans be interested in our horses if they are never in the winnings?There are very very few good stallions in this country compared to vast numbers of International dressage and SJ stallions in Europe that have actually competed at International and Olympic level whereas the majority of ours havent.Not even Arko has been able to qualify for 2nd rounds at Olympics or World Champs. The jumping stallions in the UK seem to be dominated by lowly grade A stallions however there are one or two like Arko that only go to the best mares.
A lot of the top studs are very guilty of breeding to appalling mares, i.e Catherston stud has bred to a vast number of coloured gypsy mares in one year I heard, and the number of dreadfull Dimaggio stock I have seen is appalling he is obviously being put to any old creature.
I have also seen supposedly head stud book mares and thought that they looked and moved like something very ordinary. So it is,as you say,also the grading system that is at fault.
 
Do you think the use of crap stallions and broodmares is because of:

The fact we treat our horses too much like pets, and too little like atheletes?

OR

The fact that breeders in this country have little knowledge of conformation and ways to breed good quality horses?

OR

The fact that there is nothing to push breeders to raise their game (as in, the studbooks here will grade anything, therfore allowing a continuation of the breeding of poor quality horses)?

OR something else?

Jamie
 
Interesting debate.

Is the "glowing" report in H&H the one that was in on 30 November? If so, it just seems to be a report about the two stallions who were fully approved, plus a bit about some of the others. I can't find any glowing references in it at all.
And in your original post you complained about show jumping people doing the judging, but unless I'm going mad, the main stallion in the report is a dressage horse!

I spoke to a friend of mine who was at the AES grading and she said the majority of the horses there were not by any stretch of the imagination stallion material. She said they were nice horses, but did not have that extra something that would improve the breed.
And at the end, the judges apparently also got abused by screaming owners whose horses did not pass.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to have some rule that if a stallion fails more than two gradings it should be gelded?
 
A very subtle pro-AES post if every I saw one
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Unfortunately in the UK the judgement of "what characteristics would improve the next generation" seems to be fairly subjective, and this is my main critisism of the AES. They say in their literature that they do not have a strict criteria for grading, but something like this requires objectivity, with a certain degree of subjectivity.

I'm not at all surprised that the judges were "set-upon", because of the lack of information about why the animals were, or were not graded was so limited. It seemed very frustrating for all involved.

I have yet to hear anything truly positive about the AES or their grading process. There is a severe lack of consistancy in every aspect of this studbook's standards, and the whole point of this discussion should be to talk about ways to improve the situation. Any more suggestions?
 
Tara Tee You say that the stallions lacked a certain something - this was a critiscm of my friends horse that he didn't have that spark, however should we be grading stallions with spark or stallions with manners. What sort of horse would you want to handle on a day to day basis if you were to buy one of the offspring? Stallions get enough bad press at shows for misbehaving so why penalise the well behaved?
 
I'm not going to comment on the body of this thread, as I agree with far too many points and I would also take some of it personally, having been on the recieving end of a bitchy grading!!

However,

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of the top studs are very guilty of breeding to appalling mares, i.e Catherston stud has bred to a vast number of coloured gypsy mares in one year I heard

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say, that this IS true of this particular stud. BUT AFAIK these mares are the nurse mares for Gainsborough Stud (one of the Shiekhs (I can never spell that) stud's) in Berkshire. Nurse mares have to have foals to be producing milk for any vavluable TB flat race foal that might need a foster mum.
 
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