AES GRADING FOR STALLIONS

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southsidestud

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Has anyone ever been to this either took there horse or been to watch what are your thoughts on the day is it well organised etc etc all thoughts and comments welcome what ever they are? as yet there are no dates posted for the Novembers one i know it is broadcast about i month prior
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Never been myself but freinds have attended and felt that the assesments were very accurate and those that licensed did so quite rightly, their own stallions received registered status and were invited to return, one was young and immature, so he will be back.
 
email them they are quite helpful. they are quite strict on grading which seemsto upset a few people but thats how it should be however they are not always the most organised of events!
 
Our stallion got registered status and was told to come back again for further assesment and to see how well he had been doing competition wise, the ones under 3 were loose assesed ours was a 5 year old so had to jump a good course with some fences at 125, pretty scarey!! but found it very well run.
 
Sorry to go against the grain here; but having attended a few gradings now, I have to say that AES would be at the bottom of my list.

The AES grading I attended was extremely unprofessional. The timekeeping was dreadful and everything was terribly disorganised. The instructions that people had been given (as to what to do with their stallions) turned out to be wrong. NO comments/written reports were given to many owners after the grading. And I saw many poor stallions grade; and many good ones go ungraded.

The most irritating thing for me was watching three show jumping judges judging stallions performing dressage tests (which actually turned out to be a random freestyle, despite riders being asked to learn a specific test). Not only was their only a narrow range of experience amongst the judges, but a lot of the time, their backs were turned or they were gossiping.

As a final comment, with this studbook, it certainly seemed to be more a case of who you were, and who you knew, than what your stallion was actually like.
 
AndyPandy you are soo right, from my experience steer clear! I could say more and give you much more info but this is probably not the place, suffice to say if a Stallion is only AES approved I go elsewhere, also I think most people are not aware that apparently there is an EU law that if a Stallion is graded with one society no other society has a legal standing to turn it down hence the recent trend of Stallions being registered with many Stud books making it look special, not the case! This in my opinion makes studbooks life the AES (they are definitely not the only ones albeit the worst in my opinion) make a mockery of breeding!
 
SHB is, in my opinon, the closest you'll get to a proper continental-style grading, and is therefore the most meaningful. They don't just look for a particular breed or style of horse, but look for a conformationally correct stallion that has valuable characteristics and genetics to pass on to future generations. Fair judging, well organised, meaningful gradings.
 
Something that I would like to add is that the AES seem to grade horses, that have been turned down by other stud books due to their poor conformation, just because they have had some success in competitions, eg. young horse classes...

I think that it is a very bad sign that they do not seem to acknowledge the difference between a potential breeding stallion and a good competition horse.
 
yes but...........

cor de la bryere and numerous other 'foundation' stallions wouldn't have graded by todays standards on their conformation, but have produced amazing stock..... I agree with the studbook Opie referred to which takes into account progeny performance as well as the stallions......... i do think that is the fairest and best way.......
 
Of course, progeny and competition results must be taken into account, and it should be a balanced mixture of progeny (if any), competition results, movement, conformation etc.

I think Mat's point is that some stallions with conformational defects (which could be passed on) have been graded. Those stallions may have a reasonable competition record, but they are not outstanding.

Cor de la Bruyere had an incredible jump and fantastic bascule. His conformation was not that poor. I think he still would have been graded by today's standards, because of his talent.

Also, surely we should be pushing forward with the level at which stallions are graded? This encourages breeders to aim higher, and the conformational requirements are in place to prevent these bolder jumps and flashier gaits being produced at the detriment of the horse.
 
i dunno ap, Cor De La Bryere was consided not to be good enough to be a stallion but would make a good gelding....

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think Mat's point is that some stallions with conformational defects (which could be passed on) have been graded. Those stallions may have a reasonable competition record, but they are not outstanding.

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that then is fair enough, I remember seeing 3 stallions at the last AES grading 2 of which did grade but one which I actually thought the nicest - didn't grade but I accepted that I'm a novice at breeding and they knew best.....
 
Navalgem dont put yourself down, even experts can get it wrong. I am not so sure SHBS has it right, I still think there are improvements to be made. Like anything it can't stand still it has to evolve to take into account the changes in competition & expections from horses. We still have a lot of catching up to do which would be helped by socities pulling together & pooling their knowledge more readly. Some consistancy would go a long way in improving peoples faith in gradng systems across the socities.
 


[/ QUOTE ]I think most people are not aware that apparently there is an EU law that if a Stallion is graded with one society no other society has a legal standing to turn it down

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Probably becuase that is not exactly what the Directive says! Whilst it does say that the approved status of all stallions should be observed by other stud books it does not stipulate which section of the studbook or register any stallions or mares not graded with a particular stud book should be entered into. This is why (for instance) so many people get KWPN Reg B papers for their foals when they are expecting full ones. To give you a couple of examples:

1 The breeder of a filly out of a top graded KWPN mare but by His Highness (who was a multi-champion at gradings in several stud books) had a real struggle to get full papers on the filly becuase he had died before his owners got around to seeking KWPN approval for him. Luckily they saw sense in the end and the filly got a good first premium, but it was by no means the automatic shoe-in you imply.

2 The same owner had a colt by Painted Black out of a top graded KWPN mare. Although PB had not originally been graded KWPN (becuase neither Anky nor his owners wanted to send him away for a peformance test) he was presented AES at one of their (very contentious) gradings in Holland instead, which meant that the majority of his early foals born in the Netherlands have AES papers (a real issue between the two stud books). However, when he became so successful in competition KWPN graded him as a result of that and this foal was therefore automatically entitled to KWPN papers despite the AES link. Wouldn't be the way I would choose to go though -- far to risky and problematical!

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hence the recent trend of Stallions being registered with many Stud books making it look special, not the case!

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Actually this is not always the case -- certainly not amongst the most prestigious mixed input German (Hann, Holst, Old, Westf) and Scandinavian (SWB and DV) stud books. It is just a commerical decision on the part of the stallion owners to allow the mare owners to register their foals in their stud book of choice. Also stallions offering themselves for approval/ overstamping in these studbooks almost always have to achieve a higher standard than home-bred ones in order to be accepted, both to keep the standard up and to keep the stud book's own stallion producers happy.



[/ QUOTE ]This in my opinion makes studbooks life the AES (they are definitely not the only ones albeit the worst in my opinion) make a mockery of breeding!

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I have to agree that the constant searching around for a studbook to take a multi-failed stallion candidate -- and the creation of categories of approval that will allow even failed stallions to register their stock out of ungraded mares (rather than place them and their descendents in a special Appendix register which is all that is required of the Directive) is what makes a mockery of the whole thing, but which stud book does this most (either here or abroad) I would not like to conjecture.
 
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thanks everyone alot to take on board "sss"panicing now" LOL just out of curiousness when is the SHB next grading and all info on it thanks everyone some good pointers

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October 31st/November 1st........Entries close Oct 15th ish!
 
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1 The breeder of a filly out of a top graded KWPN mare but by His Highness (who was a multi-champion at gradings in several stud books) had a real struggle to get full papers on the filly becuase he had died before his owners got around to seeking KWPN approval for him. Luckily they saw sense in the end and the filly got a good first premium, but it was by no means the automatic shoe-in you imply.

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The above filly would have got Reg A papers from the KWPN anyway as they recognise the Hanoverian Studbook, so she would never have got Reg B papers.

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2 The same owner had a colt by Painted Black out of a top graded KWPN mare. Although PB had not originally been graded KWPN (becuase neither Anky nor his owners wanted to send him away for a peformance test) he was presented AES at one of their (very contentious) gradings in Holland instead, which meant that the majority of his early foals born in the Netherlands have AES papers (a real issue between the two stud books). However, when he became so successful in competition KWPN graded him as a result of that and this foal was therefore automatically entitled to KWPN papers despite the AES link. Wouldn't be the way I would choose to go though -- far to risky and problematical!

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I was under the impression that the KWPN did not Approve PB on his results for a start and it was under the pressure of AVG and breeders than made them change their minds in the end: http://www.eurodressage.com/news/breeding/kwpn/2004/stallic_paintedblack.html
 
AES , in my opinion dont really seem to understand that a good sport horse does not a stallion make!!!
Good stallions have to have value in terms of ability ,type and conformation.
The SHB(GB) are he closest to the German /Dutch grading and stick to their guns. I have found them not to be 'swayed' by who is on the end of the lead-rope either.
Their grading are clear and well run and the standards aare consistently high. To me they are the only stud book worth their salt in this country.
 
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The above filly would have got Reg A papers from the KWPN anyway as they recognise the Hanoverian Studbook, so she would never have got Reg B papers.

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In theory Yes, but whether it was becuase his initial grading stud book of choice was (I think) Oldenburg rather than Hann even though he was Hann by birth, or becuase the mare and foal were based in the UK or because the mare herself had a high percentage of German blood in her sire's pedigree I don't know, but it certainly wasn't the easy matter you assume, I can assure you!

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I was under the impression that the KWPN did not Approve PB on his results for a start and it was under the pressure of AVG and breeders than made them change their minds in the end:

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Having been to press conferences that I have then seen written up there I have learnt from experience that you can't believe everything (or in fact that much!) that is written on eurodressage I am afraid. I understand from a reliable source who was the at the time that Anky did not want him graded or used at stud at all actually but the owners decided to go ahead despite her wishes and this was the only way it could be done. So if there was pressure it did not come from the rider!

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None of this is really relevant to stallion grading in the UK of course, but it is interesting to see how the big guys compete with each other for stallions and registrations across the world.
 
Ciss..... the KWPN accept the top 7 WBFSH Studbooks, i.e. anyone with a KWPN graded mare who have used one of the Approved stallions from these Studbooks can automatically register the foal and get Reg A papers............. why the person you know did not get this bewilders me a little....
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Regarding Painted Black, you will actually find that Anky and Sjef are part owners in this stallion along with the Uytert's and IPS Horse Group............. hence her huge belief in the horse and why she was willing to do anything for him when it came to the KWPN decision. Plus there was a lot in the Dutch press about it.............not just on Eurodressage.........I am not quite as naive as all that.....
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And while it is not relevant to the UK Stallion Gradings............it was you that actually brought this up in a previous post..............
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Ciss..... the KWPN accept the top 7 WBFSH Studbooks, i.e. anyone with a KWPN graded mare who have used one of the Approved stallions from these Studbooks can automatically register the foal and get Reg A papers............. why the person you know did not get this bewilders me a little....
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I found it extremely odd too -- especially as she has a record of presenting good foals to them including one that was invited back to Holland but didn't go. OTOH it did happen, which is a bit worrying even if it was a temporary glitch in the system.

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Regarding Painted Black, you will actually find that Anky and Sjef are part owners in this stallion along with the Uytert's and IPS Horse Group :

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Co-ownership in this sort of situation is usually a function of the rider training a greemnt -- 10% of the horse for each year it is with the rider /trainer up to 50% so that by the time it is (usually) 10 years old and a GP horse it is 50/50 ownership and if it is sold the rider gets a bigger cut the longer they have had it. However at the time this took place it would have been unlikely to be 50/50 and -- even though I am definetly not fan of hers (head down for howls of horror) I do know that 'doing whatever the KWPN wanted' would not have been her natural choice of action if she had had a completely free choice in it.

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And while it is not relevant to the UK Stallion Gradings............it was you that actually brought this up in a previous post..............
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I wasn't criticising the development of the thread ... just I suppose indirectly commenting that we have such an inconsistent set of influencies at work in our grading systems here that all such info is useful if you really want to understand how it all works!
 
Hi, slight twist on the topic, but has anyone got any photographs and/or video of an AES Grading that I could view online or borrow ??

This would be for my own personal use (a friend of mine is considering taking his stallion in April) and would be confidential x <font color="blue"> </font>
 
I think there are many stories on the PB scenario.......and at the end of the day those that actually know the real version are the owners of the horse and the KWPN.

I never said you were criticising the thread, but it seems that even the European Studbooks also have some inconsistencies at times as well..........as we pointed out about PB.

There are a lot of inconsistencies for me with British Breeding as a whole.

For instance the Sports Horse Centre getting UK funding for, what seems like on the outside, an enterprise which only focuses on being a sales point for Dutch breeders, and with the BEF/British Breeding backing this????? Seems strange to me and fellow breeders who are breeding horses that are registered and passported under the UK banner.........
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I may have picked this up completely wrong.....
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I have seen many of their adverts stating youngstock, mares etc from Holland where I was under the impression, as other people were, that this was supposed to be a centre for British Breeders to put their stock to sell in one location???
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If they had done this themselves then that would have been their own business, but knowing breeders who find it difficult to source central funding for breeding enterprises in the UK, I felt this a bit of an injustice for them, who have to struggle to sell youngstock against a highly competitve European market anyway.

Also it is my understanding have spoken to someone within the BEF that talks are happening anyway with regards to the KWPN and the way forward for British Breeding...................yet I get the feeling that the BEF/British Breeding are not supporting their National Studbooks as they should be................IMHO.........
 
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Also it is my understanding have spoken to someone within the BEF that talks are happening anyway with regards to the KWPN and the way forward for British Breeding...................

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That is certainly my understanding -- and the people running the place have certainly contacted DEFRA about setting up a daughter society in the UK -- so I am sure we all await developments.

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yet I get the feeling that the BEF/British Breeding are not supporting their National Studbooks as they should be................IMHO.........

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Which ones exactly? All the BEF Futurity/YHEs are now strictly limited to horses born in the UK that either have papers issued by a UK-based (mother or daughter) DEFRA recognised studbook or have had them overstamped by one of these stud books, so if that's not active support I do not know what is. The BEF is also in the process of setting up -- and paying for the staffing of -- the Lead Body for Sports Horse Breeding (as specified in the BHIC/DEFRA Strategy for the Horse) and representation on this will be drawn from the UK studbooks as well. It is also hoped that the best Futurity/YHE horses will feed into the World Class Performance scheme (which provides considerblle vet monitoring and training funding for animals concerned) but the exact method for this is yet to be decided.

Sadly, it seems that with the almost complete lack of support for the Futurity/YHEs in Scotland many eligible SSH-registered horses are being denied the opportunity to take part in (or benefit from the eventual funding resulting from) these schemes but that is something that Scottish breeders need to address if they want to become more involved.
 
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or have had them overstamped by one of these stud books, so if that's not active support I do not know what is

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I am a little confused by this statement......how does this help Stud Books. So basically I could take in a horse bred on the Continent, have it overstamped with a UK society and then put it forward for the YHES/BEF Futurity
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And this promotes the UK Studbooks........
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I am not doubting the logic........just curious to know the thought process.........


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Sadly, it seems that with the almost complete lack of support for the Futurity/YHEs in Scotland many eligible SSH-registered horses are being denied the opportunity to take part in (or benefit from the eventual funding resulting from) these schemes but that is something that Scottish breeders need to address if they want to become more involved.

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From what I can see only one took place, and Scotland is a big place........many people are not willing to travel 3-4+ hours to attend, and I dont think the judge selected helped.........from what I heard.

I have to say that the BEF are not doing anything that the SSH/previous SDWA has not been doing for years........i.e. evaluating youngstock through knowledgeable judges from the continent with a huge amount of experience...........

I know that the Association in Scotland has asked for funding from the BEF regarding gradings, in particular the Stallion grading, but nothing ever came back regardless of communications.............it was conveniently ignored............

The same goes for the "Lead Body for Sports Horse Breeding".............we were also informed that this did not include Scotland as such..............so hardly supportive when we are really all part of the same country...........
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That is certainly my understanding -- and the people running the place have certainly contacted DEFRA about setting up a daughter society in the UK -- so I am sure we all await developments

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I thought the UKWPN was already set up, but that the running had moved back to Holland again.............but this was not what I was really getting at............
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Dont get me wrong I am far from being one of those people who says you must buy British...........but I would like to see far more done by the industry to help support its British Breeders............instead of always promoting the foreign Studbooks in whatever forms...........IMHO
 
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