Skhosu
Well-Known Member
I don't think a rubber flag could have caused an injury, but I'm not sure if a rubber flag would stand up enough.
after todays flag incident at badminton......
- Thread starter georgiegirl2
- Start date
H-J
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I really think that any material rigid enough to 'stand up' as a flag pole would have caused a similar injury.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree rubber would not and it would be rigid enough to stand at least 2 ft or so abover the fence thick rubber would def not cut the horse in any way
I really think that any material rigid enough to 'stand up' as a flag pole would have caused a similar injury.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree rubber would not and it would be rigid enough to stand at least 2 ft or so abover the fence thick rubber would def not cut the horse in any way
Weezy
Well-Known Member
Seriously, if we are going to get so H&S over riding XC then the best advice I can give is not to do it at all. It is a risk sport, no other horse has ever died because of a flag injury (to my knowledge, I have tried and failed to find any info on this). 1 horse, 1 freak accident. If you want to stop horse injury then campaign to have absolutely NO fixed fences. But then you will always have the horses that die from heart attacks or similar, or are PTS because of breaking down. These things can be taken too far. Having seen the pics I can honestly say I doubt this will EVER happen again. If you feel worried about jumping courses that have wooden flags then don't do it, but it is unfair to start demanding that BE spend huge amounts of money on something that will prob not save a horse's life as the likelihood of it happening again is pretty much nil.
Skhosu
Well-Known Member
I am actually surprised there have been no more incidents, be it a splinter or even rider being injured as I would have thought they would have been closer to the flag but anyway.
We'll see if anything comes of it, I do see your point but hopefully if anything needs to be done it will and if not, fair enough.
We'll see if anything comes of it, I do see your point but hopefully if anything needs to be done it will and if not, fair enough.
ann-jen
Well-Known Member
One of the events near me has a patch of white and red paint either end of the top jump pole. I know this isn't going to stand out as well as flags and its also difficult to judge if a horse is inside it or not on skinny fences but its an idea????
sunflower
Well-Known Member
True, but the flags are designed so that if the horse/rider do hit them they fall away from the fence. OK there is a danger of splinters but isn't that the same for almost all of the fences as well?
I think any 'softer' material you could use would be more flexible as well and therefore could be a problem on windy days with waving flagpoles at fences distracting horses.
Anything they use has to be rigid enough to stand up but also has to be breakable if a horse does land on it and plastic splintering is worse than wood as the splinters tend to fly everywhere. In this case the injury would probably have been worse if the pole had not broken.
I think any 'softer' material you could use would be more flexible as well and therefore could be a problem on windy days with waving flagpoles at fences distracting horses.
Anything they use has to be rigid enough to stand up but also has to be breakable if a horse does land on it and plastic splintering is worse than wood as the splinters tend to fly everywhere. In this case the injury would probably have been worse if the pole had not broken.
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
I agree that it is something BE definately need to look into. But I think if they were to change the flags so they were safer, they'd need to do it at all events not just 4* ones (since this could have happened at any level).
belly
Well-Known Member
Did the pole actually stay in the horse or was it a stab....all I remember was blood??
sunflower
Well-Known Member
The pole didn't stay in the horse.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The pole didn't stay in the horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought the 'impaled' word used by one newspaper was a bit strong.
The pole didn't stay in the horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought the 'impaled' word used by one newspaper was a bit strong.
georgiegirl2
Well-Known Member
I think the point we are trying to make is to get rid of risks which are not necessary. Of course the fences can be dangerous, they are supposed to be hazards on the course, however, fence flags are not! Freak accident or no freak one off we should do everything we can to improve horse and rider safety!
It make me wonder if flag design would be looked into more closely had it stabbed the rider?
It make me wonder if flag design would be looked into more closely had it stabbed the rider?
Rachel_M
Well-Known Member
Agreed, it is unfortunately accidents like these which makes us aware of potential problems.
Ann-Jen, I was thinking something of like that to avoid using a flag but could it be worked?
Ann-Jen, I was thinking something of like that to avoid using a flag but could it be worked?
Rachel_M
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The pole didn't stay in the horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought the 'impaled' word used by one newspaper was a bit strong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did the flag "stab" or just "cut" the horse?
[ QUOTE ]
The pole didn't stay in the horse.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought the 'impaled' word used by one newspaper was a bit strong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did the flag "stab" or just "cut" the horse?
The Virgin Dubble
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really think that any material rigid enough to 'stand up' as a flag pole would have caused a similar injury.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree rubber would not and it would be rigid enough to stand at least 2 ft or so abover the fence thick rubber would def not cut the horse in any way
[/ QUOTE ]
HollyJane I agree with you on that point, and I would imagine, given what's happened, there's a possibility this might be looked into.
However, this was a totally freak accident, and you cannot possibly prepare for every possibility.
Just out hacking I've seen a sharp stone flicked up while galloping, that nearly took a fellow riders eye out, and I have seen various injuries involving 'wooded' areas like on the Badminton course. A horse could just as easily have run into a tree branch and recieved that sort of injury, and of all the places that flag pole could have hit, it must have been a million to one chance that an artery would have been hit.
I'm sure this unfortunate incident will be looked at closely, and any improvements that can be made, will be implemented.
[ QUOTE ]
I really think that any material rigid enough to 'stand up' as a flag pole would have caused a similar injury.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree rubber would not and it would be rigid enough to stand at least 2 ft or so abover the fence thick rubber would def not cut the horse in any way
[/ QUOTE ]
HollyJane I agree with you on that point, and I would imagine, given what's happened, there's a possibility this might be looked into.
However, this was a totally freak accident, and you cannot possibly prepare for every possibility.
Just out hacking I've seen a sharp stone flicked up while galloping, that nearly took a fellow riders eye out, and I have seen various injuries involving 'wooded' areas like on the Badminton course. A horse could just as easily have run into a tree branch and recieved that sort of injury, and of all the places that flag pole could have hit, it must have been a million to one chance that an artery would have been hit.
I'm sure this unfortunate incident will be looked at closely, and any improvements that can be made, will be implemented.
FigJam
Well-Known Member
Sunflower, have you considered passing on your photos to BE/Badminton organisers? They may be helpful for investigating the accident?
It was very sad and as others have mentioned, a complete freak one in a million accident that we are unlikely to ever see again. I agree that if there is a way of reducing risk without "nanny state"-ing the sport, it should be looked into, but I'm not sure there is much that can be done in this case.
Any accident is a series of events that just happen to coincide in the order and timing that they do and cause an accident. Here, the events and timings were so out of the ordinary, it's unpreventable whatever material the flag is made of really.
It was very sad and as others have mentioned, a complete freak one in a million accident that we are unlikely to ever see again. I agree that if there is a way of reducing risk without "nanny state"-ing the sport, it should be looked into, but I'm not sure there is much that can be done in this case.
Any accident is a series of events that just happen to coincide in the order and timing that they do and cause an accident. Here, the events and timings were so out of the ordinary, it's unpreventable whatever material the flag is made of really.
H-J
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I think the point we are trying to make is to get rid of risks which are not necessary. Of course the fences can be dangerous, they are supposed to be hazards on the course, however, fence flags are not! Freak accident or no freak one off we should do everything we can to improve horse and rider safety!
It make me wonder if flag design would be looked into more closely had it stabbed the rider?
[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agree. Jumps yes are sposed to be the risk not the flags!!! Why not look into it a fatality has occured and that probably could have been stopped by a none wooden flag pole. We pay so much BE that I think some research at least could be taken and the amount of bl**dy money pumped into Badders there could be alternative posts. I do not wish to give up just wish for things that are not for jumping (flags) could be safer!!!
I think the point we are trying to make is to get rid of risks which are not necessary. Of course the fences can be dangerous, they are supposed to be hazards on the course, however, fence flags are not! Freak accident or no freak one off we should do everything we can to improve horse and rider safety!
It make me wonder if flag design would be looked into more closely had it stabbed the rider?
[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agree. Jumps yes are sposed to be the risk not the flags!!! Why not look into it a fatality has occured and that probably could have been stopped by a none wooden flag pole. We pay so much BE that I think some research at least could be taken and the amount of bl**dy money pumped into Badders there could be alternative posts. I do not wish to give up just wish for things that are not for jumping (flags) could be safer!!!
H-J
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really think that any material rigid enough to 'stand up' as a flag pole would have caused a similar injury.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree rubber would not and it would be rigid enough to stand at least 2 ft or so abover the fence thick rubber would def not cut the horse in any way
[/ QUOTE ]
HollyJane I agree with you on that point, and I would imagine, given what's happened, there's a possibility this might be looked into.
However, this was a totally freak accident, and you cannot possibly prepare for every possibility.
Just out hacking I've seen a sharp stone flicked up while galloping, that nearly took a fellow riders eye out, and I have seen various injuries involving 'wooded' areas like on the Badminton course. A horse could just as easily have run into a tree branch and recieved that sort of injury, and of all the places that flag pole could have hit, it must have been a million to one chance that an artery would have been hit.
I'm sure this unfortunate incident will be looked at closely, and any improvements that can be made, will be implemented.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes they could of hit a tree but that is a natural part of the course! Stones and things you cant stop but something put there by a human (flag) and that is NOT sposed to be a hazard on teh course she not have to be a concern!!
You dont walk a course and say oh this fence could be a bit ridky with that wooden post there do you!!! The fences are the risk and why we do it, outside things liek flags should not kill horses/riders and freak or not a freak accident or death or no death it should be looked into. The money it would cost is a drop in the ocean to BE
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really think that any material rigid enough to 'stand up' as a flag pole would have caused a similar injury.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree rubber would not and it would be rigid enough to stand at least 2 ft or so abover the fence thick rubber would def not cut the horse in any way
[/ QUOTE ]
HollyJane I agree with you on that point, and I would imagine, given what's happened, there's a possibility this might be looked into.
However, this was a totally freak accident, and you cannot possibly prepare for every possibility.
Just out hacking I've seen a sharp stone flicked up while galloping, that nearly took a fellow riders eye out, and I have seen various injuries involving 'wooded' areas like on the Badminton course. A horse could just as easily have run into a tree branch and recieved that sort of injury, and of all the places that flag pole could have hit, it must have been a million to one chance that an artery would have been hit.
I'm sure this unfortunate incident will be looked at closely, and any improvements that can be made, will be implemented.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes they could of hit a tree but that is a natural part of the course! Stones and things you cant stop but something put there by a human (flag) and that is NOT sposed to be a hazard on teh course she not have to be a concern!!
You dont walk a course and say oh this fence could be a bit ridky with that wooden post there do you!!! The fences are the risk and why we do it, outside things liek flags should not kill horses/riders and freak or not a freak accident or death or no death it should be looked into. The money it would cost is a drop in the ocean to BE
Alibear
Well-Known Member
I nearly thre up when they showed it on telly the amount of blood was horrifying.
That was definitly a freak accident and everyone did the absolute best they could for the horse. It was such a shame he didn't make it but the blood lost must have been huge.
Yes I do think they should look at the flag design as mentioned they could just modify the ones for skinnies if cost were a real issue. Flags have snapped many times before but now we know this could be the result we need to look at what we can do to make them safer. It's called progress isn't it?
That was definitly a freak accident and everyone did the absolute best they could for the horse. It was such a shame he didn't make it but the blood lost must have been huge.
Yes I do think they should look at the flag design as mentioned they could just modify the ones for skinnies if cost were a real issue. Flags have snapped many times before but now we know this could be the result we need to look at what we can do to make them safer. It's called progress isn't it?
H-J
Well-Known Member
Exactly and BE should be making progree all the time
weevil
Well-Known Member
It wasn't the flag snapping that was the problem, in fact the flagpost breaking probably prevented the accident from being even worse.
As others have said it did seem like a freak accident and I am not sure that any material which is rigid enough to be used as a flagpost would have made any difference in this case.
As others have said it did seem like a freak accident and I am not sure that any material which is rigid enough to be used as a flagpost would have made any difference in this case.
charlie76
Well-Known Member
It was just freak accident- I know a horse that impaled itself on a post and rail fence(and they are supposed to be the safest form of fencing) when it was turned out. It leant over it and snapped the top rail which then got caught in the tummy strap of the rug, it went through her stomach and caused all her insides to fall out- one of the worst things I have seen but it was a freak accident.
The vet said the horse would not have felt it and would have died very quickly.
The vet said the horse would not have felt it and would have died very quickly.
Alibear
Well-Known Member
So a nice polystyrene(sp??) post wouldn't work?
Ok you'd end up with the little balls all over the place if it were snapped and it would snap v easily but it would be cheap and work well ?
Just a thought.
Ok you'd end up with the little balls all over the place if it were snapped and it would snap v easily but it would be cheap and work well ?
Just a thought.
sunflower
Well-Known Member
LOL, was actually thinking about polystyrene but would it have enough weight and rigidity not to snap in strong winds?
weevil
Well-Known Member
I think the problem is that anything they use would have to able to stand up to a strong breeze etc and they wouldn't want to risk flags flying all over the place and scaring horses.
Alibear
Well-Known Member
ok so polystyrene with a rubber outer, it's fixed to the fence at 3 points with cable ties just like the wooden ones are. so it's not about to blow away and the rubber outer means it's not going to snap in a strong gust of wind?
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
It was just freak accident- I know a horse that impaled itself on a post and rail fence(and they are supposed to be the safest form of fencing) when it was turned out. It leant over it and snapped the top rail which then got caught in the tummy strap of the rug, it went through her stomach and caused all her insides to fall out- one of the worst things I have seen but it was a freak accident.
The vet said the horse would not have felt it and would have died very quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not as 'freak' as you'd think, my 2y.o jumped out of a field and landed straight onto a post, disemboweled herself, ran around the yard to the tackroom door dropping bits of intestines as she went, the vet took 30 mins to get out to us so we had to sit on her head to keep her down, of course her heart and lungs were perfectly functional, I dread to think of the pain that she was in.
RIP Holly
It was just freak accident- I know a horse that impaled itself on a post and rail fence(and they are supposed to be the safest form of fencing) when it was turned out. It leant over it and snapped the top rail which then got caught in the tummy strap of the rug, it went through her stomach and caused all her insides to fall out- one of the worst things I have seen but it was a freak accident.
The vet said the horse would not have felt it and would have died very quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not as 'freak' as you'd think, my 2y.o jumped out of a field and landed straight onto a post, disemboweled herself, ran around the yard to the tackroom door dropping bits of intestines as she went, the vet took 30 mins to get out to us so we had to sit on her head to keep her down, of course her heart and lungs were perfectly functional, I dread to think of the pain that she was in.
RIP Holly
charlie76
Well-Known Member
Severnmiles- sounds very similar- Most horrific thing you can see.Sorry for your loss.
severnmiles
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Severnmiles- sounds very similar- Most horrific thing you can see.Sorry for your loss.
[/ QUOTE ]
Likewise
. I do think that wooden flags were an accident waiting to happen, though of course as proven in our cases it can happen just as easily at home in the field
Severnmiles- sounds very similar- Most horrific thing you can see.Sorry for your loss.
[/ QUOTE ]
Likewise
k9h
Well-Known Member
Have to say we had a youngster do that in field to.
Though he steaked himself in the centre of his chest. Had a huge flap of muscle hanging down the front. Vets did manage to stitch him back together & he made a full recovery. Lived happily till at 24 went down with colic took him to Liverpool to operate but sadly didnt make it through the OP. RIP Punch.
Though he steaked himself in the centre of his chest. Had a huge flap of muscle hanging down the front. Vets did manage to stitch him back together & he made a full recovery. Lived happily till at 24 went down with colic took him to Liverpool to operate but sadly didnt make it through the OP. RIP Punch.
Bright_Spark
Well-Known Member
Quote: Weezy
No Fiona it wouldn't. Sunflower has shared her images with me and the horse carries the flag and skews in the air continuing its (the flags) journey - it is hard to explain, but in this case the only thing that would have ensured no injury would have been no flag at all, which is not a possibility.
Ok now I dont know anything about Eventing, why are the flags needed?
Sorry for really stupid question.
No Fiona it wouldn't. Sunflower has shared her images with me and the horse carries the flag and skews in the air continuing its (the flags) journey - it is hard to explain, but in this case the only thing that would have ensured no injury would have been no flag at all, which is not a possibility.
Ok now I dont know anything about Eventing, why are the flags needed?
Sorry for really stupid question.