Age for backing, kissing spines, just thoughts....

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soloequestrian

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I've recently read an article by Deb Bennett about times for maturation of joints in the horse's body (it is on this page, scroll down to see http://www.womenandhorses.com/newsletter-2006january.html). She says that the vertebrae are the last to mature, at around 5-6 years old. Her recommendation is that horses shouldn't be weight bearing until this happens. I mentioned this to a friend, and she said she had read similar elsewhere. I've just started reading a book on schooling, and it lists kissing spines as one possible outcome of a crooked horse. I'm now wondering if backing at 3 or 4 coupled with less than ideal work early in the horses life might be resulting in what seems to me to be a large number of cases of kissing spines. Perhaps it's just the internet and there have always been many horses with KS, but there do seem to be loads of posts where either this is a problem, or it is suggested as a possible cause of bad behaviour. Interested in anyone else's thoughts, and also thoughts on when to back. Many horses are competing at a fairly high level by the time they are 6 - should the actually only have done non-ridden work up until then?
 
My horse has a kissing spine and he was brought on very slowly and never did any proper work until he was 5. I think it may affect some horses but I certainly don't agree with not riding horses until they are 6.
 
My horse raced as a 2 year old, he has had kissing spines, the vet did comment that there's a good chance it was due to being backed so young. But who knows? It would be hard to prove.
 
And this is my problem with Deb Bennett's written pieces. If you read it through she basically says that horses shouldn't be ridden until they are 6 and WBs not till they are 7 years old. No-one is going to leave horses unridden until they get to that age and having read so many studies over the years, many report contrary findings to Deb Bennett.

KS is really rare in the horse world in my part of the world. Which could be viewed as strange considering a great many western youngsters are backed at 2 and in ranch work at 3 years old. There are also a huge amount of ancient horses who are still working well into their 30s.

I personally think genetics play a much larger part in the basic makeup of a horse.
 
Interesting point but I do wonder if it's more to do with what we're breeding now - it seems (and this is ONLY my uneducated opinion!) that KS occurs (or is diagnosed?) more frequently in competition type horses. From what I've seen, we see it in TBs, WB etc - it seems rare to find it in a native or cob type (although I'm sure someone will prove me wrong now!). This leads me to wonder if it's a result of the breeding - we want our sports horses to be very mobile and athletic through their spine and it then takes a lot of musculature to support this movement, which may be one of the reasons we see high diagnoses of KS in horses like ex racehorses who typically don't have a lot of top line. My theory may be complete **** but it's a musing anyway!
 
frannieuk said:
Interesting point but I do wonder if it's more to do with what we're breeding now - it seems (and this is ONLY my uneducated opinion!) that KS occurs (or is diagnosed?) more frequently in competition type horses. From what I've seen, we see it in TBs, WB etc - it seems rare to find it in a native or cob type (although I'm sure someone will prove me wrong now!). This leads me to wonder if it's a result of the breeding - we want our sports horses to be very mobile and athletic through their spine and it then takes a lot of musculature to support this movement, which may be one of the reasons we see high diagnoses of KS in horses like ex racehorses who typically don't have a lot of top line. My theory may be complete **** but it's a musing anyway!
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Agree with this. Mine was backed at four and has just been operated on. My vet tells me that they find it at three ages, newly broken, 7-8 when they are working seriously (mine) and twelve when the work catches up with them. The fact that it is commonly found because of difficulties breaking argues a genetic cause to many cases for me. Mine was definitely like it at four, we just didn't find it until it began to really hurt him with new bone formation.
 
Mine are just musings too. Don't know my thoughts on English saddles making a difference but the style of riding between English and western is very different. The generic English riding horses are ridden in a contact and schooled at a younger age I'd say than the generic western horses are. Western horses are able to carry themselves totally differently to English horses so maybe something in that too.
 
ridefast said:
I think it's the fashion for riding horses overbent and behind the vertical
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Well that certainly doesn't account for my horse, because I hate that fashion too. And it won't account for kissing spines in any three or four year old horse that is newly backed
 
Away from the genetic possibility I think its a few things alone or individually. backing too early for the development of the horse. then some people see the monty roberts type programs and think they can back horses without building up the back muscles properly before riding them. those that do get preparation are often lunged in sidereins in a way thay shortens the neck and hollows the back rather than the longer old fashioned way of long reining and when lunging having the horse take the rein forwards to the contact. once the horse is started there is too much work in an arena instead of doing slow road/hillwork and hacking over different surfaces to let the horse learn to balance itself (often due to fast roads and lack of good hacking) so even if the person who owns the horse when ks is discovered does give varied work it could well have been developing from when it was started or worked years earlier.
 
crabbymare said:
Away from the genetic possibility I think its a few things alone or individually. backing too early for the development of the horse. then some people see the monty roberts type programs and think they can back horses without building up the back muscles properly before riding them. those that do get preparation are often lunged in sidereins in a way thay shortens the neck and hollows the back rather than the longer old fashioned way of long reining and when lunging having the horse take the rein forwards to the contact. once the horse is started there is too much work in an arena instead of doing slow road/hillwork and hacking over different surfaces to let the horse learn to balance itself (often due to fast roads and lack of good hacking) so even if the person who owns the horse when ks is discovered does give varied work it could well have been developing from when it was started or worked years earlier.
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A lot of sense there. Years ago when proper nagsmen broke and rode youngsters, the horses did miles of long lining before backing, then they went off into forestry and tracks hacking followed by a few mornings cubbing. They did not see a school.
 
Spring Feather said:
I tried to press 'Like' where 'Reply' is lol! Anyway, yes that's what I was also getting at. There's a lot of added strain on English ridden horses by comparison to western horses.
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Which I suppose was partly what I meant, along with the current fashion for 'close contact' saddles. Once upon a time saddles were not intended to fit only one horse and be reflocked every 3 months or so as the horse changed shape seasonally. I also think that there is some very bad riding around these days and I do wonder if it is partly the shape of saddle seats these days.
 
Up to 80% of horses have ks
It's easier to diagnose due to X-rays and such
Comp horses are being pushed further....ks restricts this 'ideal' limit, therefore something shows up wrong which turns out to be ks
Perhaps 50/60 years ago there were less cases as horses were being asked to do things which did not show up ks? There were certainly no valegros back then!
I don't think ks can be an outcome of being crooked..... Ks can make a horse crooked

I believe most horses are born with, or very early on in their lives create the spinal process interference...then this is aggravated later on in life...rather than it being caused later on in life.
I think there are less cases in the western world as perhaps the work you ask does not interfere with the back as much as English style.l
I think more cases are found in tb and wb as these are the 'models' being pushed to the limits....how many natives are racing? Or doing gp dressage? (Not saying there are some!...but the majority are tb and wb)..... And ks is only really going to show up if the horse and it's back is put under a lot of stress (there will obviously be some cases so severe that they would show up in any horse)

My horse was found aged 10/11...... Why? Due to some girl I loaned him to being unable to take simple instructions off anyone on how to ride correctly and create a round horse.... Sawing the front end and dragging his nose down, while making him drop his back is not how to make a horse round! Therefore this irritate his spinal processes as he flexed them in a curve towards the ground....rather then towards the sky. If I had kept riding him the vet thinks we would have never found it....... They also think that when he was very by young he had a rotational fall...he also has poll (and brain ;)) damage! And the a caused the ks.
 
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AdorableAlice said:
A lot of sense there. Years ago when proper nagsmen broke and rode youngsters, the horses did miles of long lining before backing, then they went off into forestry and tracks hacking followed by a few mornings cubbing. They did not see a school.
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My horse was backed like this and still had a kissing spine.
Personally I think training/ management has a small part to play for KS. I think the majority of cases are due to skeletal structure, conformation etc.
It is untrue that every horse with a KS has been incorrectly broken in, ridden by idiots in a badly fitting saddle.
 
soloequestrian said:
I've recently read an article by Deb Bennett about times for maturation of joints in the horse's body (it is on this page, scroll down to see http://www.womenandhorses.com/newsletter-2006january.html). She says that the vertebrae are the last to mature, at around 5-6 years old. Her recommendation is that horses shouldn't be weight bearing until this happens. I mentioned this to a friend, and she said she had read similar elsewhere. I've just started reading a book on schooling, and it lists kissing spines as one possible outcome of a crooked horse. I'm now wondering if backing at 3 or 4 coupled with less than ideal work early in the horses life might be resulting in what seems to me to be a large number of cases of kissing spines. Perhaps it's just the internet and there have always been many horses with KS, but there do seem to be loads of posts where either this is a problem, or it is suggested as a possible cause of bad behaviour. Interested in anyone else's thoughts, and also thoughts on when to back. Many horses are competing at a fairly high level by the time they are 6 - should the actually only have done non-ridden work up until then?
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My mare had kissing spine from the age of 2, possibly earlier. Sadly it took a long time for the vets to work out what was wrong. She was brilliantly behaved under saddle, but then suddenly she wouldn't be. She wasn't nasty about it, just told me she couldn't move at that particular time. After a rest she'd be OK again for a while. Retired at 6. Heartbreaking.
 
I've owned mine nearly all his ridden life. He has always had plenty of variety and is turned out on steep hillside full time for most of the year and every day in winter.OP

His work is not responsible for his kissing spines, he was simply born with fat spinal processes without enough room between them.I blame his breeding, with a grand prix father, he was bred for high class dressage.

Will people saying the cause is how the horses are worked please be aware how insulting it is if you do not write saying 'some' or even 'many', leaving it sounding as if you are blaming all kissing spines on the wrong training.

Sensitive moi? For sure, I've just spent two grand on the operation to slice six vertebrae apart!!
 
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Pearlsacarolsinger said:
I often wonder if modern 'English' saddle design is at least in part to blame for KS. That might explain why Western horses don't get it so frequently.
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What do you mean by "modern"? Jumping saddles have been similarly styled for 100+ years. And saddles in the UK have, generally, larger bearing surfaces and, from what I can see, are far more likely to be constantly professionally fitted. So there should be markedly less incidence of KS here, but I don't see that being the case.
 
cptrayes said:
Well that certainly doesn't account for my horse, because I hate that fashion too. And it won't account for kissing spines in any three or four year old horse that is newly backed
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Given how many people are out there long lining two year olds, I wouldn't be so sure!
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
Studies I read at uni suggested that most horses who jump to a fair level or dressage to a fair level will have some degree of KS. Most will go un noticed. Its to do with how the horse uses itself biomechanically.
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It's not entirely how the horse uses itself. My own horse's processes are close together right from the bottom. Many horses processes only clash at the top. It did not matter how well my horse used himself (and he fooled us all for a long time with his wonderful movement and tolerant temperament), he could not keep his processes apart. Which is also why steroid injections did not work for him. Some horses can have the injections and then be taught a better way of moving which will keep the processes apart. Some can't.
 
It appears to me to be like many diseases in mammals, a combination of nature and nurture, in differing amounts. The fashion for long backed horses is part of the problem IMO, along with the differing uses we put horses to. Historicaly more horses were driven than ridden, with a large number being expected to do both. I do think that there is a trend to break horses to saddle earlier now, without the horse experiencng enough of the world before it is confined to the school and worked in circles.
 
Nightmare before Christmas said:
Studies I read at uni suggested that most horses who jump to a fair level or dressage to a fair level will have some degree of KS. Most will go un noticed. Its to do with how the horse uses itself biomechanically.
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And these horses would never have been diagnosed even in the recent past because the technology to do so was either non existent or far too costly for the average owner.

I have a book from about 1920 discussing what we now know as KS. The author was a "horse master" in Colonial India and so had access to a huge number of horses doing different jobs. On his own interest he autopsied the horses that were put down for "dangerous behaviours" or unexplained lameness and found all manner of conditions, including KS that were simply undiagnosable in living horses at the time. It didn't seem to come as a surprise either but what would have been the point of worrying about it, as there wasn't anything they could do about it anyway.

Recently a vet who had worked in a large teaching hospital told me they saw signs of arthritic changes in the spine - most notably at the base of the neck, interestingly enough - in nearly every adult horse they autopsied for any reason. They just took it as standard.
 
TarrSteps said:
Given how many people are out there long lining two year olds, I wouldn't be so sure!
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Yes, the bit I missed out was that having experienced both kissing spines and riding overbent, I don't agree that being worked overbent will be a big cause of kissing spines.
 
cptrayes said:
I've owned mine nearly all his ridden life. He has always had plenty of variety and is turned out on steep hillside full time for most of the year and every day in winter.OP

His work is not responsible for his kissing spines, he was simply born with fat spinal processes without enough room between them.I blame his breeding, with a grand prix father, he was bred for high class dressage.

Will people saying the cause is how the horses are worked please be aware how insulting it is if you do not write saying 'some' or even 'many', leaving it sounding as if you are blaming all kissing spines on the wrong training.

Sensitive moi? For sure, I've just spent two grand on the operation to slice six vertebrae apart!!
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I think like for almost every single thing in this world, there is no simple single answer. It's a condition, not a result and there are an almost infinite number of variables in play. I suspect people who blame work and only work are really saying, "It can't happen to me because I would never do THAT." (Even though they might do any number of other careless or potentially harmful things.) It's not about you, it's about them. ;)

We are only ever doing our best and that will always only be contextual. I think it's interesting to debate these points and useful to consider ALL the risk factor, such as we know them, but the fact is we don't have any assurances. You might do everything right and still have it go wrong. But that isn't a reason to throw caution to the wind either.

The maturation rate of horses is hardly new information. I think there is some argument to suggest some horses might benefit from being left to fully mature - leaving out the emotional aspects, it makes sense! But no one is going to actually DO that, are they? Even the complete natural horses aficionados don't do it.
 
TarrSteps said:
And these horses would never have been diagnosed even in the recent past because the technology to do so was either non existent or far too costly for the average owner.

I have a book from about 1920 discussing what we now know as KS. The author was a "horse master" in Colonial India and so had access to a huge number of horses doing different jobs. On his own interest he autopsied the horses that were put down for "dangerous behaviours" or unexplained lameness and found all manner of conditions, including KS that were simply undiagnosable in living horses at the time. It didn't seem to come as a surprise either but what would have been the point of worrying about it, as there wasn't anything they could do about it anyway.

Recently a vet who had worked in a large teaching hospital told me they saw signs of arthritic changes in the spine - most notably at the base of the neck, interestingly enough - in nearly every adult horse they autopsied for any reason. They just took it as standard.
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My friend recently had her horse PTS because he was fitting. It was believed due to impingement at C5 (ish) vet said the same as you have stated. It's really common. He said it is simply the weight of the head that was the problem.

I do think there is an issue when people don't let horses develop 'natural' musculature. If horse is prevented from developing a strong well muscled neck, with muscles in the 'wrong' places also, then the nuchal ligament and base & top of the neck must be taking too much of the weight of the head. (that's my view anyway)
 
50 plus years ago there weren't so many leisure horses and owners prepared to investigate and treat back problems. If the horses couldn't do their job for whatever reason they where either sold on or shot.
Nowadays we have a lot more compassion for our horses and hugely improved veterinary treatments and diagnostic equipment so things like kissing spine are much more readily diagnosed.
I know it can't be the reason for all horses with KS but I do wonder if endless circles on artificial surfaces from a young age don't do them any favours.
 
So the picture forming here seems to be that perhaps all horses have potential to develop kissing spines, but there is a spectrum of conformation from those for whom it is almost inevitable (cptrayes horse) to those who will only suffer the condition if they are brought up and worked really really badly, and all others in between.
Is it true that no-one will ever leave a horse to, say, six years old to back? Are none broken to drive or bred from and only sat on later?
 
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