Age for backing, kissing spines, just thoughts....

The only horse I personally know who had KS wasn't broken in till she was 6, and only ever really hacked. Her KS was highlighted when she had to do circle work during foot and mouth. Until then she had not really schooled so doubt this was the cause of her problem. She was also not ridden by someone who is prone to riding in an outline, let alone behind the vertical.
 
I think it is a mixture of genetics and how the horse is worked. I lost a horse almost 2 years ago to KS and PSD. He was lightly backed at 3 years then sent to a professional at 4. The horse was always 'difficult' (nappy, joggy, etc) but it was put down to him being a young hot warmblood (by Negro - same sire as Valegro).

We worked out he was better with regular holidays so would have a week off every 2 months, if not more. When I finally decided to progress more with dressage, his weakness was accentuated and it was obvious more was going on than just his temperament/attitude towards working.
 
I have been close to several horses diagnosed over the last few years and two of them developed KS due to leg issues, one had issues in the front and the other in the hind. The mechanical compensation each made to deal with pain/injury manifested in a bad back, much the same as it can in a human who has an injury.

I do agree with others who have said that the means of diagnosis have improved, I remember form my early years (70's and 80's) that many horses had "bad backs" and were carried on with until they couldn't be ridden anymore, or unpredictable behaviour under saddle and were considered a bad horse for it and sold of pts.

We sit on the horses spine, one of the weakest parts of the body. I wonder how i would cope if i walked around on all fours with someone sitting mid spine - i would get a bad back pretty quickly!
 
Always-Riding said:
I think it is a mixture of genetics and how the horse is worked. I lost a horse almost 2 years ago to KS and PSD. He was lightly backed at 3 years then sent to a professional at 4. The horse was always 'difficult' (nappy, joggy, etc) but it was put down to him being a young hot warmblood (by Negro - same sire as Valegro).

We worked out he was better with regular holidays so would have a week off every 2 months, if not more. When I finally decided to progress more with dressage, his weakness was accentuated and it was obvious more was going on than just his temperament/attitude towards working.
Click to expand...

It's not straightforward. My strong suspicion is that my mare got kissing spine as a result of a nasty fall over backwards while being taught to load by a trainer. She twisted as she fell, which was good really because she got her head out of the way, would probably have broken her neck otherwise. She's having a pretty good retirement, 9 years and counting!
 
Renvers said:
I have been close to several horses diagnosed over the last few years and two of them developed KS due to leg issues, one had issues in the front and the other in the hind. The mechanical compensation each made to deal with pain/injury manifested in a bad back, much the same as it can in a human who has an injury.

!
Click to expand...

Chicken and egg?? Something like 60% of horses with kissing spines have sacroiliac and/or hind suspensary issues.

I can show you videos of my own horse where a deviation in his front right leg knee action has completely disappeared since his back was operated on. The bad action was being caused by his back problem, not the other way around.
 
My view is that Deb Bennet is spot on with regard to leaving backing as long as possible. 5 yrs is what I'm leaving ours to now, having said that it's a year longer than what we have been doing. Ours will be started just as the average Warmblood dressage horse will be retired hurt. 6yrs of age was the last figure I read.
Kissing spine, like all these other ailments I feel are a combination of an immature horse, shoeing and modern training techniques.
 
PR, what about kissing spine in a horse that has never worked, been shod or done much in the way of training? I think sometimes they just get an injury we don't even see happen. My mare was showing the signs before she was 2 years old. Unusual, which is why it took a long time to be diagnosed.
 
Pale Rider said:
My view is that Deb Bennet is spot on with regard to leaving backing as long as possible. 5 yrs is what I'm leaving ours to now, having said that it's a year longer than what we have been doing. Ours will be started just as the average Warmblood dressage horse will be retired hurt. 6yrs of age was the last figure I read.
Kissing spine, like all these other ailments I feel are a combination of an immature horse, shoeing and modern training techniques.
Click to expand...

PR that's too simplistic. My own horse was over four before he was backed, has symptoms right from the start (in retrospect), has never been subjected to modern training techniques and has never been shod.
 
Last edited:
I don't think Dr Deb does say "don't back until 5 or 6" it is more of bear in mind when you are breaking a horse to ride that their skeleton will not be fully mature until 6 or 7 so don't put a lot of weight on them or expect them to work too much, as immature horse will seek to protect its back and this can lead to schooling problems later on. Also, remember that in the USA many, many horses are backed and ridden from the age of 2. There are also many USA horses that work well into their 20s - maybe different styles of riding?

I still think that the "traditional" of lightly backing at 3 and doing more work at 4 has stood the test of time.
 
KS is probably due to a myriad of reasons. It's unreasonable to expect that young or unbroken horses should be free of this. Some horses have a naturally poor posture which may contribute, taken in conjunction with a genetic pre disposition, which may exist. All these factors are accentuated by the style and quality of training, riding and tack. Also with improved diagnostics, the quest for the perfect anatomy has taken hold. No two backs are the same, certainly after a few years, but the majority function perfectly well. Horses put in a position where they hollow their backs cannot help. Lots can be done to negate this problem, the primary thing being allowing a young back to mature before putting weight on it. It won't help everyone, but this of course is a numbers game. We don't ask horses to do much that they don't do naturally, but we do ask them to do things in excess of what they would do. All horses can jump, but no horse would naturally jump as much as someone who wants to SJ would do. Personally I think asking a horse to jump 7'2" is a bit stupid, but it's what a lot of people want. Similarly with dressage, very demanding for a horse, taken together with the training. The horses which are at most risk, I suppose, are the weekend warriors asking unprepared horses, which aren't really fit enough, to partake.
 
Anyone got a view on western v. European saddles? I always wonder why we are so against saddles extending onto the loins in this country when western saddles are so long.

I also share PR's concern about unfit horses that barely get much work during the week suddenly going out hunting, show jumping or on long hacks at weekends. That, I think, is a relatively recent thing to happen on a wide scale with bigger sports type horses. (It was common enough with ponies thirty years ago, but not with horses) .
 
cptrayes said:
Anyone got a view on western v. European saddles? I always wonder why we are so against saddles extending onto the loins in this country when western saddles are so long.

I also share PR's concern about unfit horses that barely get much work during the week suddenly going out hunting, show jumping or on long hacks at weekends. That, I think, is a relatively recent thing to happen on a wide scale with bigger sports type horses. (It was common enough with ponies thirty years ago, but not with horses) .
Click to expand...

Hardly an expert view, but it has somewhat surprised me how easily and quickly my 16.3hh warmblood took to a western saddle, and even though it weighs a lot more than his English saddle and covers a much larger back area. He seems slightly more forward going in it but this may be due to many things including the style I ride western rather than the saddle, but I do get the feeling he prefers it and I have promised him that when he retires from competitions we'll go fully cowboy!
 
Turks said:
Riders tend to be heavier now so more young horses having to carry more weight at early age - any bearing on it?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, typically I understand that western horses are backed at two, and they also routinely ride much smaller horses than we do. Maybe you can get away with that with a much longer saddle?

Like everything, we need more research on this, with xrays of horses from a young age and then seeing which ones already have it before being ridden and which ones develop it in training.
 
My mare was retired with KS in the summer aged 12. She had the "perfect" bringing on in terms of building up her topline. Massive focus on classical dressage in hand, long reining and pole work before I backed her aged 5. Regular physio etc, everyone who met her marvelled at her amazing topline. She was 16.2 and I'm only 8 stones, so hardly ridden by someone too heavy. The vet at Newmarket just thought she had been born with it and that all the work I had done to encourage the back to stay rounded had helped to reduce the pain of it. Anyway, I was gutted. Horse of a lifetime now unrideable.
 
cptrayes said:
Anyone got a view on western v. European saddles? I always wonder why we are so against saddles extending onto the loins in this country when western saddles are so long.

I also share PR's concern about unfit horses that barely get much work during the week suddenly going out hunting, show jumping or on long hacks at weekends. That, I think, is a relatively recent thing to happen on a wide scale with bigger sports type horses. (It was common enough with ponies thirty years ago, but not with horses) .
Click to expand...

The construction, weight distribution, and purpose is very different though. True, they are more stable but also, very few people use them to jump and gallop so I'm not sure you can separate out the equipment and the use. (Also, like with English saddles, it's a very mixed bag. Good ones are fantastic to ride in, bad ones are not.)

Also, I'm not convinced Western horses don't have soundness problems! I know there is a feeling on here that Spring Feather is having a representative Western riding experience, with her horses never having any sort of soundness issues, but I would not say that has necessarily been my experience in the competitive world. Reining, especially, is hard core. I love it but there is huge attrition.

The fitness thing is starting to get to be an issue with me. I hate to sound like a grumpy old person but my perception is we used to spend a lot more time riding relative to the amount of competing. I'm not sure this is pertinent to KS (I'm pretty sure the horses in India I mentioned earlier worked very hard!) but it's got to have ramifications for injury.
 
SnowOnSnow said:
So the 'average warmblood dressage horse' is retired hurt at 6!???
Where did you get this guff from!?
Click to expand...

A study of German and New Zealand dressage horses in training was done in 1994 until 2009, Hanoverians competing in Germany in dressage had a median survival time of 5 years, while the median competitive life of dressage horses in New Zealand was 3 years. More breeds than just Hanoverians took part in the New Zealand study hence the lower survival rate. Hanoverians only in New Zealand had a median survival time of 6 years.
 
Pale Rider said:
A study of German and New Zealand dressage horses in training was done in 1994 until 2009, Hanoverians competing in Germany in dressage had a median survival time of 5 years, while the median competitive life of dressage horses in New Zealand was 3 years. More breeds than just Hanoverians took part in the New Zealand study hence the lower survival rate. Hanoverians only in New Zealand had a median survival time of 6 years.
Click to expand...

That's interesting, do you have the reference for the study? Are you sure that those figures are age, rather than time in competition? It would seem to make more sense, especially if the NZ time was only 3 years - that would mean a retirement age of six or seven for them, but a retirement age of 8 or 9 for the Hannovarians. Pretty dire figures whichever way you interpret them though, unless they were being retired because they weren't going to make the top grade rather than through injury.... anyway, would be great to read the study!
 
I'm told that its retirement age from competition.

•Friedrich, C., Konig, S., Rogers, C., & Borstel, U. (2011). Examination of longevity in dressage horses- A comparison between sport horses in New Zealand and Hanoverians in Germany. Zuchtungskunde, 83 68-77.
 
Pale Rider said:
I'm told that its retirement age from competition.

•Friedrich, C., Konig, S., Rogers, C., & Borstel, U. (2011). Examination of longevity in dressage horses- A comparison between sport horses in New Zealand and Hanoverians in Germany. Zuchtungskunde, 83 68-77.
Click to expand...

I know that study; tiny sample size and not really relevant.
 
the other problem with that study is that mares will often have a few years in competition to prove their ability and then be used for breeding so that would not necessarily mean they were broken at all and would skew the results
 
Cortez said:
I know that study; tiny sample size and not really relevant.
Click to expand...

This is a Google translate version of part of the method (my German is not good): This included 20881 Hanoverian. The New Zealand dataset comprised a total of 11201 dressage horses, of which 2066 registered horses in the show season 1994/95 were and what were the only starting season for the survival analysis.

Hardly a tiny sample size!!!
 
cptrayes said:
Chicken and egg?? Something like 60% of horses with kissing spines have sacroiliac and/or hind suspensary issues.

I can show you videos of my own horse where a deviation in his front right leg knee action has completely disappeared since his back was operated on. The bad action was being caused by his back problem, not the other way around.
Click to expand...

Yes I think so, shows we can never over simplify the cause of these issues and ensure all possible factors are taken into account.

Glad that your boy improved so much, hope he continues to do well :)
 
crabbymare said:
the other problem with that study is that mares will often have a few years in competition to prove their ability and then be used for breeding so that would not necessarily mean they were broken at all and would skew the results
Click to expand...

It would also presumably include.stallions, which would do their performance.tests and possibly some YH or stallion shows before retiring to stud.
 
soloequestrian said:
It would seem to make more sense, especially if the NZ time was only 3 years - that would mean a retirement age of six or seven for them, but a retirement age of 8 or 9 for the Hannovarians.
Click to expand...

I think I agree with you soloequestrian, without reading the study, it would make more sense if it was competition time rather than age.
 
MAkes you wonder why the Spanish Riding School leave their horses till 5 -6yrs old before breaking them in - maybe they know something we didn't.

Sadly many people seem to be in such a rush these days and have their youngster backed at 2, schooled at 3 and in the ring by 4.

Mine get left until they are at least rising 4 before being backed then are turned away again until rising 5 - hopefully they will last a long time with few problems
 
It's an interesting read. Anyone have any ponies with KS or arabians as some (arabs) have 5 lumbar vertabrae instead of 6. Imo genetics play the major part but of course incorrect schooling won't help. It is engagement of the hind end (rotation of the pelvis) that allows most 'lifting' of the spine and that kind of collection would be very rare in a ridden youngster.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top