Aggression when rugged/grooming

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HS6

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Hi all,
Am really perplexed by a recent bout of aggression from my boy, he is easy as anything in almost every way but has absolute outbursts of aggression when it comes to rugging. I can dodge the teeth but he is also threatening to kick which really isn't okay...

He also does it when being groomed, but not as severely as with rugging. And it's not consistently a specific part of his body he doesn't like groomed- sometimes he decides he doesn't want his head brushed, sometimes his neck, sometimes his sides, sometimes his legs. Telling him off seems to make him 10x worse, but ignoring his behaviour isn't making it better.

He has never been a 'cuddly' horse in general which I don't mind and tend to give him his space, but nothing like this. He's up to date with physio and is a dream to ride. No issues at all with leading, tacking up, girthing, mounting, bathing etc.... in fact he nearly fell asleep when I clipped him recently but tried to take my head off when I was brushing off the hair afterwards!

This is the first winter I've owned him and he's been totally fine since on the ground since I got him in early Spring.

I want to think it's a pain thing, but his behaviour isn't similar to any of the typical symptoms I've had with horses before (back problems, ulcers etc).

I've never lacked confidence with horses on the ground, but it's getting to the point I'm genuinely worried he's going to kick me sooner or later ?

He is a very good doer for a warmblood so lives out with shelter in all weather, lives on hay with a just handful of hard feed with his balancer.
 
Sounds like ulcers to me… i did have a horse once that hated being brushed with anything less scratchy than a dandy brush but he had a weird skin condition ( he eventually lost all his hair and was discussed at a equine dermatology convention in hong kong they still never came up with a diagnosis) one day after several years all his hair just grew back … they couldn’t explain that either…. So he was an oddity
 
Sorry have to agree with the others ulcers. I have a TB that went like that and now my WM is funny to touch so being treated.
 
If you’re using a stiff brush for mud maybe try a soft brush just to see if it makes a difference. Some brushes go very sharp and spikes in cold especially old ones.
 
I would be inclined to think ulcers, but horses that i've had experience of with ulcers haven't had such specificly concentrated behaviour. As in he is a dream under saddle and no issues with being tacked up/girthed which I have always experienced as some of the biggest warning signs for ulcers.

Most of the time it is his head and neck he doesn't like groomed, and when it is his sides too this is usually alongside his head/neck too. And as said, the main issue is rugging and the grooming is less of a consistent reaction.

He's only been in light hacking work over the winter and is happy and forward going under saddle, it's just the rugging that has been so extreme (and to a milder extent grooming too).

He was scoped with his last owner (not sure how long ago) when he went through a stage of being grumpy with flatwork but it wasn't ulcers. I know it's not impossible, but considering he's been on 24/7 turnout with barely a handful of hard feed and mostly just in light work since i've had him I would be surprised if he had developed ulcers in this time.

When he was clipped did I noticed that he doesn't seem to have the best skin and it was quite flaky in places that were not previously evident under his thick winter coat, i've been bathing these spots with over-the-counter products (this has only been for a week so not long enough to see a huge difference). Could uncomfortable skin alone be enough for such an extreme reaction?
 
Will also add- whilst he does get quite aggressive when I'm throwing the rug over he is worst when doing up the straps, particularly leg straps. I swapped the leg straps for a fillet string so I didn't have to spend too much time doing it but even if I reach to pull the rug into place and pull his tail through he is threatening to kick. Once rugged his overall mood is worse in general... now that I'm typing this out the dots are connecting that maybe it is his skin that's causing pain and the problem's been staring me in the face this whole time ?
 
My old TB didn’t care for being brushed (which suited me. She was also a pretty clean horse) and for a lot of years she might threaten to kick when being rugged up. It was always a threat and I had to ask her politely not to or she would strike the air if I was strong with her. She didn’t take a telling off. One thing that helped was a used to pull her rug over her back to take it off, would also threaten to kick when taking off, so started lifting it off and I noticed a big difference. Once she hit 20ish she started telling me she wanted her rug and never threatened to kick so I wonder if I was over rugging her.

can you give your one a good scratch? Flo loved a scratch and her mane being pulled so I know it wasn’t a skin condition. She groomed with field mate too. Does yours groom with other horses?
 
HS6 said:
Will also add- whilst he does get quite aggressive when I'm throwing the rug over he is worst when doing up the straps, particularly leg straps. I swapped the leg straps for a fillet string so I didn't have to spend too much time doing it but even if I reach to pull the rug into place and pull his tail through he is threatening to kick. Once rugged his overall mood is worse in general... now that I'm typing this out the dots are connecting that maybe it is his skin that's causing pain and the problem's been staring me in the face this whole time ?
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Hind end discomfort would suggest hind gut acidosis/dysbiosis. How is he lifting his right hind for farrier/hoof picking etc? Hind gut issues usually means that the horse also has stomach ulcers too.

My horse would not let me rug or groom and she had all of the above. Now been treated and a happy horse again.
 
It could be a skin thing also esp if this is a winter problem now that he’s been clipped and is suddenly more sensitive? Could you investigate the flaky skin with a vet and also mention the problems? Either way I’d get a vet out to check bc something is going on and from what you’ve described it doesn’t sound like an issue with the rug or brushes themselves.
 
Is he itchy? Does he crave scratching when his rug is off.

I have one who gets hives but even when she doesn't have these is a generally itchy horse. She hates being rugged so I always go for the very lightest that is appropriate.

Regular baths help. Minimal grooming. Sheepskin saddle pads and girths. She is just sensitive all over!

Ironically she loves being clipped. She is the best horse I have ever clipped. Last time she was grooming the wall while I clipped her.
 
I also treated her for ulcers with no change in behaviour. She too has constant forage. Handful of soaked grass nuts. She was girthy but that has changed with a different girth, teaching her belly lifts and I feed her a treat to keep her head long and low while I girth her.

With my mare I am sure she has been severely told off for her grumpiness so there's an element of waiting for my retaliatory aggression which we have finally moved on from (I have had her a year now)
 
Sounds to me that your starting point is his rug/ rugs? As per your post above. is he always in the same rugs? Definitely worth swapping to something else to see if it makes a dinference. My other thought along those lines is that I try and put mine in diff makes of rug so any pressure points aren’t the same all the time if that makes sense? its possible he simply has a sore bit that the rug is causing - although trying to figure that out could be difficul! As usual - if only they could talk, and when they are telling us something it would be very helpful to be as clear as possible so the poor human can then help!
 
Wheresthehoofpick said:
I also treated her for ulcers with no change in behaviour. She too has constant forage. Handful of soaked grass nuts. She was girthy but that has changed with a different girth, teaching her belly lifts and I feed her a treat to keep her head long and low while I girth her.

With my mare I am sure she has been severely told off for her grumpiness so there's an element of waiting for my retaliatory aggression which we have finally moved on from (I have had her a year now)
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That's all really helpful and I think you may be right. Your horse sounds very similar- when he first started becoming agressive I would go to tell him off and his reaction to being told off was ten times as violent as the initial aggression. I think the kicking may come from him going to bite and then turning to kick in anticipation of being smacked.

I've tried just using voice to tell him off which seems to help somewhat, although I think it may take some time to unlearn this behaviour.
 
HS6 said:
That's all really helpful and I think you may be right. Your horse sounds very similar- when he first started becoming agressive I would go to tell him off and his reaction to being told off was ten times as violent as the initial aggression. I think the kicking may come from him going to bite and then turning to kick in anticipation of being smacked.

I've tried just using voice to tell him off which seems to help somewhat, although I think it may take some time to unlearn this behaviour.
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Punishing a horse for very likely being in pain isn't fair at all.
 
Do you do carrot stretches asking him to reach to the girth, and if so is he equal on each side? There is something bothering me about your description that this all started when you are messing with his neck. Even doing up leg straps could be pulling round his neck.
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