aggressive behaviour in youngster . help!!

[lisa_lou]

I bought a 2 yr old warmblood x cob 6 months ago, he was in a sorry state, very emaciated, all ribs and backbone sticking out and sunk in quaters, and very lethargic. 6 months on and he is looking great, full of energy, plays with the other horses a lot but has taken up biting people, sometimes just a quick nip but he really tries to attack my mum who puts him out in mornings for me, he tries to bite her constantly looking aggressive and goes for her head but when I handle him he is fine and sweet just giving the occasional nip being cheeky. We've tried a calm approach with him just saying no loudly, tried squirting him with water every time he tries to do it, I've got very cross with him and laid into him for it which just made him look even more aggressive, what is the right way to try and stop him doing this? He also sometimes rears in a tantrum if u try and hold on to him and stop him going backwards. He also goes for my kids if he ever gets the chance to get near them but most of the time he is as sweet as pie as licks you to death!
I've made contact with his breeder and the lady she sold him to at weaning said he became very boisterous and kept kicking and biting, she was very inexperienced around horses so sold him on again and since then in his short 2.5 yrs he has been through about 5 homes ending up in the last before me to a dealer in a very sorry and tired state. Anyone got any suggestions???

 

[AmyMay]

Make sure you're the one that handles him, and you're kids aren't allowed anywhere near him.

Firm consistent handling, and hopefully once the terrible two's are over, he'll stop.

How big is he?

 

[Gloi]

I agree. Firm, consistent handling and only handled by people who aren't intimidated by him. He has probably learned to bully when he was owned by the novice. What age was he gelded?

 

[ribbons]

I was going to ask if he'd even been gelded. There is no mention in the post of a gelding, just referred to as "he"
Poor previous handling AND rising testosterone will be a highly charged mix.

 

[Brightbay]

How is he kept? Is he together with other young horses and does he get plenty of turnout?

This is another topic I've covered in a recent blog post (I get lots of inspiration for topics from H&H posts!) http://horsesunderourskin.wordpress.com/2013/03/14/fair-play/

 

[lisa_lou]

Sorry, yes he is gelded. Was gelded at around 1 yr I think. He's out with a playful 4 yr old although just recently seperated them because the play from my ones side was getting a bit too much. I don't think he knows when the other horse has had enough. He,s turned out 8-4 then in at night with and lib hay and is fed molichaff, baileys stud cubes, biotin, allrounder supplement and oil. Not huge amounts of food twice a day.

 

[AmyMay]

How big is he???

 

[lisa_lou]

14.2 but very bum high so hoping for a growth spurt soon

 

[foxy1]

So is he now turned out alone?

 

[AmyMay]

Ok, so not big enough to break in, to give it a job to do. So firm, consistent handling by one person only. Kids kept at a distance, and company of his own age, plus an plder 'gaurdian' to put him in his place.

 

[Jools2345]

personally i would be cutting out all feed (as long as hay is good quality) a handful of NON molassed chaff with a supplement.

turn him out 24hrs per day with plenty of varied company.

he was castrated before you got him if i am correct? are you sure he has been castrated and does not have retained testicles?

 

[AengusOg]

His range of previous homes and the experience he has gained from his handling there, and his experience of being handled since you've had him, are all contributing to his current behaviour. It seems nobody has managed or handled him correctly to discourage him from learning bad habits. He's not at all unusual; there are lots of horses out there who have had similar bad starts to their training.

You would do well to learn all you can about safe and sensible handling of young horses, and apply one suitable method of working with him to help him become better behaved. Allowing others to handle him at this stage is unwise as he will have learned to take advantage of any weaknesses in some handling techniques. You have to handle him consistently and fairly, encouraging him to behave well, rather than actively trying to combat the faults he has, then teach your mum how he should be handled.

If any of his handlers are afraid of him, or behave aggressively toward him, his behaviour will worsen rather than improve, so if you can learn how to handle him correctly you will increase your confidence and this will help him.

 

[soulfull]

I would keep him turned out with another horse!!!!! If he can't play and practice herd leadership with another horse he will do it with humans!
I'm just looking to put my 8yr old out with another horse as I took have had him around 6 months which is a very common time for it to start. My own lad has just started playful little nips, especially leading him in across his field. He just wants a friend

 

[lisa_lou]

I watched my mum lead him out this morning to see exactly what he does, he was fine half the way all sweet and ears forward then the look in his eyes changed, ears went back and he invades he space constantly trying to bite her and he really means it, its not just once he keeps on. Most horses would shy away from a hard shake of the rope and a firm loud 'no' but he just walks all over you trying to snap at you. Do I need to get an animal behaviourist out do you think as I feel this is a make or break situation, if we don't go about trying to stop him the right way now I feel we may never be able to as he is very nasty when he takes action. Its not consistant aggression tho as its mainly just on his way out to the field in the mornings. Tied up on the yard and in his stable he is fine with just the occasional trying a quick nip and when he has his feed in stable you can go in and muck out around him etc and he is fine. We tried standing up to him with a hard slap and shouting at him but he is totally unphased by you getting cross and it just makes his anger worse!

 

[lisa_lou]

Also I see cutting out feed and leaving him out 24/7 as a quick fix to tire him out etc but not actually working with the problem to solve it. I feed him carefully only small amounts but with his bad start he needs some food to encourage healthiness and growth.

 

[AmyMay]

Do I need to get an animal behaviourist out do you think as I feel this is a make or break situation,

No, you need to teach him some manners.

So as before. You handle him, and you only. He gets appropriate company, and anyone who has absolutely no experience at all keeps away from him.

 

[Brightbay]

No, you don't.

You need to (1) accept that he is a young male horse, and that if he doesn't have same age playmates, he will direct his horseplay invitations to whoever is around.
and (2) learn that meeting his invitations to play with slapping, yanking and aggression will increase his adrenalin levels, and make him more likely to respond by defending himself against what he now sees as a threat, and
(3) find him some appropriate same age same sex playmates so that he has an appropriate outlet for his playful behaviour - if you read the link I posted above, you'll see that play isn't just optional - it's necessary for him to mature into a sensible adult horse.
Then (4) learn how to teach a young horse what behaviour you want, rather than constantly punishing him for behaviour you don't like without actively (and calmly without punishment) showing him what you DO want him to do.

I would suggest getting hold of a copy of No Fear No Force by Sarah Weston. It's aimed at novice owners of younger feral horses, but the principles are good regardless.

All you are doing at the moment is getting into a spiral of you and your mum accidentally reinforcing the bad behaviour you actually don't want.

 

[lisa_lou]

Thank you to all that have replied, both myself and my mum are very experienced around horses and have dealt with sprightly hard to handle horses before but this one has us puzzled as we dont know what's happened in his past and he has most definitely been abused of some kind so want to make sure we were being sympathetic to his bad up bringing but also being strict in teaching him the right way about things and how to treat humans. So should we just simply use choice when he is being bad and praise everything good he does? He is a beautiful horse so need to get around this.

 

[AmyMay]

I think if you are as experienced as you profess, you will know the answers to these questions.

But bottom line is, one handler, strict management, nip poor behaviour in the bud, ignor good (it's to be expected). Have the horse out as much as possible, with appropriate companions.

 

[Persephone]

OP I do sympathise, as I have a now 4 y/o mare and lots of things you are saying ring true.

I would say she is 95% to handle now, but as you say when they get that look in their eye it's potentially dangerous.

At the moment mine is being led with a chain over her nose, I also have to keep my elbow in position as she will snap, snap, snap at me. She has even been known to stand posturing at me with her mouth open like the thing from alien. It sounds funny, but dear me, I could do without it. In the past I also used a Dually, it helped a bit but the chain is better.

Anyway I digress, you need to man up to this horse, use a chain on his nose, let him bump himself off your elbow/knee/shoulder hard. Back him up fast when he tries anything on, it's hard work, they don't like it, but with the chain on it puts you in the senior position.

You have to be firm, fair, strong and don't let him wind you up whatever you do. Even if you have to resort to rescue remedy every time you handle him. I also find that putting in their place and then pausing, totally calm, quiet, don't stroke or fuss. Just give him 10 seconds time out and processing time. Sounds odd but it does help. The less input he gets from you after he has done something wrong, the less fun it will be. He will learn the consequences believe me.

I would also only handle him yourself, or if anybody else does it, they must use exactly the same methods and actions as you, and also be very confident and capable.

Personally I still will not let anybody else do my mare in a situation where she has been difficult before, I know what she's like and I would be mortified if she were to hurt somebody else. When she has gone six months without certain acting out behaviours then yes I will start getting other people to do things with her, but now now.

Good luck with him, and if you ever want a sounding board or to bounce some ideas around, feel free to PM me

 

[Persephone]

Sorry, yes he is gelded. Was gelded at around 1 yr I think. He's out with a playful 4 yr old although just recently seperated them because the play from my ones side was getting a bit too much. I don't think he knows when the other horse has had enough. He,s turned out 8-4 then in at night with and lib hay and is fed molichaff, baileys stud cubes, biotin, allrounder supplement and oil. Not huge amounts of food twice a day.

Got to say that seems a lot of food. There is more sugar and oil in that lot than I am feeding my 17HH!

 

[Pale Rider]

His range of previous homes and the experience he has gained from his handling there, and his experience of being handled since you've had him, are all contributing to his current behaviour. It seems nobody has managed or handled him correctly to discourage him from learning bad habits. He's not at all unusual; there are lots of horses out there who have had similar bad starts to their training.

You would do well to learn all you can about safe and sensible handling of young horses, and apply one suitable method of working with him to help him become better behaved. Allowing others to handle him at this stage is unwise as he will have learned to take advantage of any weaknesses in some handling techniques. You have to handle him consistently and fairly, encouraging him to behave well, rather than actively trying to combat the faults he has, then teach your mum how he should be handled.

If any of his handlers are afraid of him, or behave aggressively toward him, his behaviour will worsen rather than improve, so if you can learn how to handle him correctly you will increase your confidence and this will help him.

This sounds somewhere near right to me. I've read later posts about chains and such like which I am totally against. You will get no where hurting or hitting this horse, if he is a dominant horse trying to out dominate him will get you hurt. Lots of horses like this either get sold on or damage their handler, you only really get one chance of sorting this out and if you don't know what your doing get some proper help. If they turn up with chains or harsh bits fire them off, they will be rubbish and do no good.

 

[hayinamanger]

I had a very large, extremely dominant horse. The damage had already been done, the horse had suffered untold injustice and had been passed on and on and would take no more. We had a deal, if I was quiet, firm and consistant, the horse didn't try to kill me. I never raised my voice or hand, nor used a stick or chain.

 

[texel]

To recap ; you have a 2 ½ year old Gelding that has had about 5 homes in his short life and is displaying unwanted behaviours in the vicinity of humans indeed it is the humans which have taught him to behave in this way.
Every time we are with our horse we are sculpting his behaviour by our behaviour and actions.

From his behaviour I would suggest he has not had a proper start in life in that he is confused about what he is etc. However we can suggest all sorts of things but we really do not know exactly what has happened and we only have his current behaviour to go by. This is a horse who mistrusts humans, to him you are just another one of those humans in a long line of humans who have misunderstood him.

From my experience with these types of horses, I had a mare like this; the best thing is to give them a chance to chill out. Indeed I would not bother to ‘handle’ him at all at the moment.

1. Ideally you want to find at least two horses he can be out with 24/7. He needs to settle down and form a routine of his own with his companions.

2. I suggest your daily ‘contact’ with him should not involve anything other than when you initially poo scoop the field, check the water trough and fencing etc. When you enter the field he may rush up to you at full speed. It has happened to me and all you do is stop and position yourself so the wheelbarrow is between you and your horse. He will stop and you wait a few moments then you calmly just pick up the handles of your wheel barrow and walk away to a mound of poo somewhere else. Walking away is very important gesture to give to a horse. It informs him that you respect him as a horse. Of course we would like our horse to respect us but why should he if we do not show him any respect ? He might frolic about etc and let him just ignore him and he will lose interest.

3. I suggest you spend time just watching him and his companions. I used to go into the field and walk around on my own ignoring the horses altogether and just unwind and take in the surroundings. When my horses, including the newbie mare would come up to me I would just let them investigate and I would then walk away again. Sometimes I would make my way over to them and just stand by them as they grazed. If the mare was too mouthy I would throw up a hand and walk off.

Gradually when I felt the time was right I was able to gently stroke the mare’s shoulder. Each time I was at the field I would potter about, sometimes I would touch and stroke the mare and slowly over time I was treated with respect, no biting or kicking – this behaviour eventually faded away. I was able to increase the time of this contact.

Of course you have to be watchful but the end result was a calm and relaxed mare. I could put a halter on and lead her around and she eventually trusted me and this made all the difference it lay the foundations for being able to back her. It took about a month or so but there is no quick fix for these troubled horses, they are stronger then we are and can mash us into the ground at any time if we get it wrong.

All the best patience and calmness is the key.

 

[Foxhunter49]

he is young, he is feeling well and he has no leadership.
Odds are that he is unruly in the stable and pushes around and will not stand still.

He needs to be corrected when he misbehaves and hard and fast. This dies not mean beating him up but it does mean making him think that you are going to kill him.

Insist that he obeys everything you tell him to do the instant you ask him and do this every time you are with him.

 

[Littlelegs]

As well as other youngsters to play with, he needs to be out constantly with a real lead mare who will keep him in line. If you can't provide both, then find a stud yard to keep him at.

 

[ridefast]

- No hard feed
- Playmates, and a good nanny horse to teach him manners
- Back to basics, teach him to walk on when you ask, stop when you ask, back up when you ask, move hindquarters when you ask, move shoulders when you ask. Any unwanted behaviour will result in more exercise, not chasing around but backing up, side to side, turn on the forehand. NO emotion, keep it simple, ask, good boy, unwanted behaviour means more work for him. All low adrenalin, and continue on with the task in hand

 

[Jools2345]

Also I see cutting out feed and leaving him out 24/7 as a quick fix to tire him out etc but not actually working with the problem to solve it. I feed him carefully only small amounts but with his bad start he needs some food to encourage healthiness and growth.

unless he is relaxed he will not learn and he cannot be relaxed if he is bubbling with energy. standing in a stable and feeding hard feed and oil will not allow him to be in a relaxed sate of mind.

turning him out in as large a group as possible will allow him to learn that he has a place and he needs to behave in an appropriate manner, you do not need to be the one to teach him (thereby avoiding any conflict) this others horses can do it and then you work with him to expand the lesson.

you cannot replace the bad start in life by compensating and over feeding now, it will do more harm than good. new forest ponies and the like that are raised on poor grazing with no supplements/hard feed are some of the hardiest horses that we have in this country, as long as they are no emaciated i think less is more

 

[GeorgeyGal]

Adlib hay and a good balancer (suregrow is highly rated).

 

[lizstuguinness]

One of the main issues you have is that he has has so many owners and so many different ways of being handled - so only you to handle him from now no - for safety and also consistancy.

cut out his feed, he doesnt need this just a handfull of chaff to carry a multi vit, out as much as poss, with another horse or two.

I will also say at this piont you are likely to encounter people thinkning you are cruel - I find lots of people who dont understand babies, just have no idea that the slighest millimetre at this point leads to a dangerous horse, it sounds like your horse hasbeen allowed to have several millimetres - this is why being handled by the same person iwl produce a better horse and make it easy to break in a few months

Id also give him something to do. Long reining, introducing poles, even tacking him up and walking him in hand along roads