Aggressive Behaviour

[DurhamGal]

Hi All,

Sorry I wasn't sure which forum to post this in, but I guess it is a training issue. Apologies for the long post.

I'm working with a new horse that has arrived at the yard, with a view to event. He's a lovely looking boy, bags of talent but unfortunately is quite aggressive. I have a bit of a soft spot for him as I gather he has had a tough time with people in the past and has lost any trust/respect and generally doesn't like being fussed with because of this. Most the time people just ignore him or tell him off when he gets too much, but I would quite like to get to the root of the problem. (I had a nightmare welsh cob as a teenager and he turned into the love of my life, so I'm willing to invest some time in this boy).

Where to start... He is happy in his stable (obviously his little safe zone), if he has his head out the door he will reach out for you, ears back, teeth on show. He's never bitten (yet), he will touch you but doesn't actually bite you. In the stable you can muck out around him, he will happily eat his hay and moves out your way when asked by voice, but he pulls a face if you touch him. When you turn to leave the stable he will follow after you threatening.

I started working with him 2 days ago (although he has been at the yard for a while). I do have to be wary (he hasn't bitten yet, but he is just at the right height to get my face if he does). He seems to be quite a dominant horse, when having a stand off he does pull himself up and wont back off straight away, but will eventually. But if you go rushing into the stable, he will spin to the back of his stable away from you.

Anyone else dealt with this sort of behaviour? I know he hasn't been treat well but whether the bad behaviour came as a result or has been the reason for his treatment I don't know.

I've started stopping at his door every time he is shows his teeth and walking away when he stops.
Every time I go into his stable we end up having a stand off. two of the other girls just push past him and ignore him but I dont know if that is the best way to deal with it? When I am having a stand off with him, I just keep invading his space until he moves away. Also I've started putting my hand to my face in a sort of claw shape (looks and feels stupid but I guessed that is his signal that I'm annoyed and im threatening him back without touching him. I'm hoping that way he might learn that I wont hit him) and it might give my face a bit of protection if he does bite.(which was the main reason for doing it)

any advise or similar experiences would be helpful, Thanks

 

[PorkChop]

I would describe the behaviour as grumpy rather than aggressive tbh - though it could escalate.

I would ignore the behaviour and reprimand with a growl or "no" if I thought he was being too rude. What is he like under saddle?

 

[DurhamGal]

Grumpy would be fine, however this boy just seems on different level, a bit too threatening. Most people at the yard just avoid dealing with him altogether.
He is ok to ride, he is being schooled at the minute but nothing I can complain about. I would say all issues we have with him are all on the ground. He also rushes or plain refuses to walk through his stable door too. It took me 20 minute the other day and I ended up having to cover his face to get him through the door. I've heard he has problems being lunged too but I haven't had the joy of discovering that yet.

 

[madlady]

Is it possible for him to be dealt with on a 1-1 basis so that a very limited number of people handle him (for now) as that could help his progress - he needs everyone dealing with him to treat him the same - for example if someone took his grumps the wrong way and gave him a poke or waved an arm in his face it could really set him back.

It really does sound as if his issues are people and stable related - he's possibly been treated quite roughly I would imagine. I'd be tying him up outside to muck him out if possible - gets him into a routine and gets him used to going in and out of his stable and getting used to the fact that nothing is going to hurt him either inside or outside his stable. I think I'd be trying to be as quiet but 'no nonsense' as possible until he's adjusted a bit more and then take things a little further - get him used to touch etc.

Would the yard be open to having someone out to him to work on groundwork/trust?

 

[wench]

I would also suggest some ground work lessons, as it should help establish you as the boss.

I also agree on the above comment that it will be easier for him if it's one person dealing with him on the ground at the minute, so that the boundaries are set the same every time he is handled.

 

[Mister Ted]

I had a new horse once who didnt like to be touched and every time I put my hand on him he turned to nip ears back.Eventually I realised he was unhappy with me touching him because I was frightened he was going to bite and he sensed that I was scared of him .It made him unsure of me and he thought "Im certainly not letting this unstable person be in charge of me."When the vet came to check him over she had not a bit of trouble and she was under his belly checking him all over with him standing like a dream,simply because he sensed she was in control and knew she wasnt afraid.
Being taken away from other companions to a new home I am sure stresses them out too so its a lot to cope with and they need time to settle in.After a while I became more confident (it was my first horse) and went on to have a wonderful parnership.
In you situationI think I would walk away when he bares his teeth and reward him when he is not by stopping to speak to him.Only good behaviour earns rewards.What I found effective was when entering the stable calmly putting your arm out in front of you and waggling your fingers up and down at him even before he has the chance to be aggresive sends the message you are claiming your space and he has to back off.It is a "barrier" between him and you and makes you feel safer as nine times out of ten he will back off.He will be respective of that as horses naturally claim their space between each other.It takes time and patience and to feel in control,read up on horse physcology it really helps.!

 

[JillA]

Here you go, lots to research - he sounds very uncomfortable.

Ulcers / mineral imbalance / lack of salt (http://calmhealthyhorses.com/index.html)/ lack of magnesium / too much magnesium and not enough calcium (google Equifeast for their research) - my money would be on ulcers to begin with, especially if he has had a stressful life. Some diagnostic tools and alternative remedies on here http://equinenutritionnerd.com/2014...tions-for-stomach-ulcer-treatment-prevention/

Not many horses will become that defensive unless either they are still scared or in pain.

 

[wench]

What I found effective was when entering the stable calmly putting your arm out in front of you and waggling your fingers up and down at him even before he has the chance to be aggresive sends the message you are claiming your space and he has to back off.It is a "barrier" between him and you and makes you feel safer as nine times out of ten he will back off.

I wouldnt recommend doing this at all I'm afraid... if the horse is a "nippy" one, this would make it very easy for him to lunge at you and bite your fingers, and quite probably either badly bruise them, or break them,

You are best of using body language with your whole body, not offering part of your body for the horse to come and bite you.

 

[Under-the-radar]

The problem with asking for help with this type of problem on a forum, rather than IRL, is that this is a real life situation and in all honesty it would be very tricky, if not impossible to provide the exact answer that you need to help you with this horse. IMO this horse needs only one or two people handling him on a daily basis, and they need to be handling him in a very firm but fair and VERY consistent manner.

If it were me, I would get someone of the IH-type ilk to come and help. I often find that if you have some help with laying ground rules, if you can keep these rules it can make things very much easier. You sound like you are anxious around him - which is not going to help anyone. Get some help on the ground - not via forum

 

[Brightbay]

Fear aggression - which is exactly what you're describing - is one the of the most difficult things to deal with in horses. It is nothing to do with the horse "trying to be the boss" - it is everything to do with the horse trying to keep himself safe in a situation where he believes his life is at risk. Horses feel safer in groups - he is alone. Horses feel safer in spaces where they can run from what frightens them - he has nowhere to run. Horses feel safer in situations where their food is all around them, not tied up in a net or in a small bucket. Horses feel safest when other unfamiliar horses or people do not invade their personal space bubble, yet most stables are actually smaller than a horse's preferred personal space, so the horse will feel uncomfortable even when a horse or a person walks past outside. Horses feel safer in situations where those handling them do not do things to make them fearful - you don't know what his previous experiences have been, but he's communicating quite clearly "please keep your distance, I am worried".

What he is wanting is to feel safe in "his" space. Your idea of approaching, waiting for him to relax, and then walking away is the best way to deal with this issue in the first instance. Ideally, any handling should be done with the horse *outside* the stable - and ideally, feed and haynets should be placed in the stable while the horse is out until he settles and learns not to worry. Handling him - and that would include grooming and tacking up - inside the stable when he is already in a state of anxiety is quite dangerous. Outside the stable, he has space around him and he is less likely to feel cornered, so it is safer.

Using threatening body language *inside* the stable is also not a good idea. He is saying "please keep your distance, I am worried what you might do". Using aggressive (or even quite assertive) body language in this situation is confirming to him that he is right to be worried, and may cause him to escalate his warnings.

Backing off in this situation is not about you losing face, it is about you respecting what the horse is saying and also about recognising a potentially quite dangerous situation. The horse does not want to do this, and he will stop when he no longer feels at risk. With a horse like this, by far the best approach is to start with 24/7 turnout and then gradually reaccustoming the horse to the stable for short periods until he is relaxed, but I appreciate it is not always possible. Don't force handling on him while he is feeling unhappy, and as suggested above, it may be worth considering that part of his threat is due to pain - and since it is worst in the stable, it may well be feed related, gastric ulcers often lead horses to become very defensive.

This article may be of interest to you http://www.equinebehaviourist.co.uk/uploads/2/3/8/9/23898877/aggression_proof2.pdf

 

[wkiwi]

Agree with BRightbay in that this is a fear related aggression (based on your description).
We have recently had one arrive in the yard exactly the same (and not the only one like it in the past either). Have used positive reinforcement to get her used to being touched and now (4 weeks) she is only 'grumpy' about the saddle, although will put her ears back when feed bucket first put down. I used touch then reward when ears went forward and when approached with ears forward, plus scratch withers and massage (tied up) to show that humans aren't so bad after all, plus not moving away and ignoring any threats. Repeated many many times (e.g. 10-20 times a day for short sessions). Also handled by others going about their usual business, so you can still make a diff. if you are not the only one handling her. I also use the claw thing you describe for some horses if i think they really will bite (will have bitten me at least once first though so more likely to be a history of biting rather than an anxious horse.
Whether or not you handle him in the stable during retraining would be up to you - it would depend on his body language at the time and how good you are at reading this. The mare I am working with is definitely not pain related as she doesn't mind being touched in the paddock - all her associations are with stable and/or tack (and has obviously been hit too much when being lunged as well). Note that the only way to confirm gastric ulcers is by scoping, but this does not mean that it is the cause of the signs you describe. Learned association with pain can last years after the pain has gone and is often underestimated.

 

[Goldenstar]

Also agree it's a classic description of fear aggression.
I would ignore the behaviour as much it's possible I would tie up if working on with him .
I would try to find what he likes physically like chin rubbing or whatever .
When they are like this I don't correct I stand my ground and try to give a impression of total calmness .
They do come round if everybody is consistent .

 

[siennamum]

My gelding is like this. He is an annoying mixture of aggressive and anxious. I think the answer is consistency, be aware of triggers and avoid them, don't pick fights, but set boundaries.

I won't do mine in his stable by and large, it isn't fair when I know he likes to be left alone. I don't come between him and his food, and I don't let people he doesn't know discipline him.

It has taken time, but he used to be really grumpy but is now a very cheerful and affectionate chap. I would just work out your boys preferences, and give him time.