Aggressive dog issues

[tobiano1984]

My 7yo lurcher bitch has always been very dominant but more recently has got too aggressive. In the last year she's been attacked twice - once by a lab in her own house and once by a collie out on a walk. Now she doesn't wait to ask questions. If she meets another dog she'll have hackles up and stand stiff and straight growling, if nothing happens that's it, but if the other dog barks or moves to her she'll go for them. Of course we're responsible owners and put her on a lead when we see other dogs and warn other owners. She's also fine at shows walking around other dogs, it's only when they're introduced. Not like she's trying to get at every one that goes past!
I'm not sure what the best action to take is to improve or at least prevent getting worse. At the moment if she's aggressive she gets told off/warned verbally and if she goes for another dog she gets severely told off.

She's around other dogs most days at my yard - up to 5 labs/spaniels/terriers/retrievers and although she's definitely top dog she behaves well around them.

We're looking at getting a 2nd dog in the near future and I'm not sure if this will improve or worsen her behaviour? I was hoping it'd stop 'only child syndrome' and desensitise her to other dogs in her personal space.

Any ideas?

 

[wkiwi]

Its risky giving behaviour advice in things like forums for aggressive dogs, because so much depends on interpreting body language at the time (and having the right body language yourself). I would try a behaviourist, but if you can't afford this then try:

Karen Overall - Manual of Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Dogs and Cats
Landsberg G, Hunthausen W, Ackerman L 2003 Handbook of Behavior Problems of the Dog and Cat

Both of which have excellent advice

 

[AmyMay]

Are you muzzling?

 

[twiggy2]

I agree a behaviourist is needed, I would like to add a dog that has become aggressive after being attacked is fear aggressive and telling it off will not reduce but increase the fear esculating the unwanted behaviour.
You need to teach her to avoid the situation so need to show her how to leave a situation and a good behaviourist will show you how to do it.

 

[{97702}]

I have limited time for behavourists, having had bad experiences with one recommended by my preferred charity who told me absolute rubbish....however I would advocate muzzling and trying to pre-empt any possible conflict situation so you stop the scenario before it can develop

 

[Cinnamontoast]

As Lévrier says, pre-empt situations. I do all the time with Zak, who was jumped on as a youngster and became incredibly aggressive towards all unknown dogs. He has been trained to focus on me and sticking a ball in his gob helps immensely. When he goes out, he has to be trained and he'll stay in a sit while I hide a dummy etc. Could you try this? It's not a relaxing walk, I can never simply wander round the woods with him, but it keeps other dogs safe as well as him.

 

[Booboos]

I have limited time for behavourists, having had bad experiences with one recommended by my preferred charity who told me absolute rubbish....however I would advocate muzzling and trying to pre-empt any possible conflict situation so you stop the scenario before it can develop

That's a bit like saying you have limited time for medicine because once a doctor gave you a wrong diagnosis. In any profession there are people who excellent, competent or crap at it.

OP get a good behaviourist out ASAP. Aggression is not an issue that can be dealt with online, someone has to meet your dog in person and assess her reactions. In general BAT is a great technique, telling her off will most certainly be counter productive and may be even dangerous for you. Meanwhile you must keep her on lead at all times, don't trust to her recall or your ability to see other dogs before you do, that's a recipe for disaster.

 

[Clodagh]

Meanwhile you must keep her on lead at all times, don't trust to her recall or your ability to see other dogs before you do, that's a recipe for disaster.

I think that is over the top, as long as they are keeping an eye out for others, as OP says she isn't running up to other dogs to attack them. A lot of people on here must never let their dogs off at all and regard it as normal, although I suppose it depends where you walk.

 

[Apercrumbie]

I think that is over the top, as long as they are keeping an eye out for others, as OP says she isn't running up to other dogs to attack them. A lot of people on here must never let their dogs off at all and regard it as normal, although I suppose it depends where you walk.

I don't think it is OTT to expect an owner of a very aggressive dog to keep it on a lead in areas where they are likely to encounter other dogs. The OP has said this dog is dangerous and until the dog has been further trained and desensitised, they have a duty to keep other people's dogs safe.

OP have you considered muzzling as a short term solution while you train her? I agree with the others who say you should probably see a behaviourist/trainer of some sort. Sorry I can't offer any better advice.

 

[tobiano1984]

Thanks for suggestions folks. She's not 'dangerous' it's only an issue if an unknown dog gets too close - she never instigates it by approaching them. So at the moment muzzling/keeping on a lead at all times isn't really necessary. We hardly ever see people on walks anyway where we are. And she doesn't rip them apart or anything like that! Just snapping and teeth so it's not really a worry that she's going to seriously hurt something. It's just very antisocial. I will try and find a behaviourist to speak to, but not sure how they would see her in action as she only does it with unknown dogs.

 

[{97702}]

That's a bit like saying you have limited time for medicine because once a doctor gave you a wrong diagnosis. In any profession there are people who excellent, competent or crap at it.

Allow me to elucidate - I have never had any good experiences with dog behaviourists, they are a modern phenomenon who are not needed in my opinion.

 

[Booboos]

Allow me to elucidate - I have never had any good experiences with dog behaviourists, they are a modern phenomenon who are not needed in my opinion.

That's hardly an argument. Ironically doctors are a modern phenomenon too, do you feel they are not needed either?

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. . Ironically doctors are a modern phenomenon too, do you feel they are not needed either?

Not taking sides, but 'seriously'? Doctors are a modern phenomenon? Does not the bible advise us to 'Honour our physician'?

You and I have discussed this subject before, and fail to find common ground, it seems, but when I see the behaviourist and the Uni lecturer demonstrate their abilities, and against their peers, or at least those who compete with dogs and who they will contradict, be that at working trials, sheepdog trials or those for gundogs, and those who do protection work, THEN I will listen to them.

Considering the canine mind, 'I know best' comes from opposing directions, and one is based on theory, and the other practice.

Alec.

 

[Booboos]

Not taking sides, but 'seriously'? Doctors are a modern phenomenon? Does not the bible advise us to 'Honour our physician'?

You and I have discussed this subject before, and fail to find common ground, it seems, but when I see the behaviourist and the Uni lecturer demonstrate their abilities, and against their peers, or at least those who compete with dogs and who they will contradict, be that at working trials, sheepdog trials or those for gundogs, and those who do protection work, THEN I will listen to them.

Considering the canine mind, 'I know best' comes from opposing directions, and one is based on theory, and the other practice.

Alec.

Modern medicine only came into its own with the discovery of antibiotics, prior to that doctors were considered quacks as they knew very little (fear of anatomy), they held ridiculous views (homeopathy, bleeding) and were very ineffective.

'Honour thy physician' as I am sure you know is followed directly by the explanation that all healing comes from God, doesn't have much to do with the physician's abilities. It also goes on you suggest you make a sweet savour, a memorial of flour and an offering of fat - good luck with that one as a treatment plan.

Calling operant conditioning theoretical as opposed to practical is oxymoronic.

 

[CorvusCorax]

She's seven and she's had bad experiences. I wouldn't worry about 'introductions' she neither needs or wants. You say yourself, taken at her own pace, she's fine. Like a lot of humans, she just doesn't want others in her personal space in what she percieves as a pressurised setting. She's not a monster, she's just not a social butterfly.
I'm happy that my dog is neutral with others, and as CT says, I have come to this state by using distractions. When he sees another dog, he looks to me for a game.
As mentioned, getting after her after the fact is just piling grief on grief. Get her attention before she even thinks about gobbing off and take her mind somewhere else.

 

[twiggy2]

Not taking sides, but 'seriously'? Doctors are a modern phenomenon? Does not the bible advise us to 'Honour our physician'?

You and I have discussed this subject before, and fail to find common ground, it seems, but when I see the behaviourist and the Uni lecturer demonstrate their abilities, and against their peers, or at least those who compete with dogs and who they will contradict, be that at working trials, sheepdog trials or those for gundogs, and those who do protection work, THEN I will listen to them.

Considering the canine mind, 'I know best' comes from opposing directions, and one is based on theory, and the other practice.

Alec.

I taught dog training for years (there is so much more to learn though), all my dogs are well adjusted well behaved members of society, I help people now with getting their dogs to become good members of society and that is what most behaivourists do too (yes there are good and bad) I have no desire to compete in any discipline -that does not mean I am not well informed and successful with helping owners and it does not mean that what I practice and teach is at odds with anything needed to reach competition level in any discipline-my aim has always been to help owners reach a point that life with their dog is pleasurable and benefits all parties but never to do or teach anything that would hinder anyone reaching any future competition goals with their dog.
ETA the people I have trained have included some of the most succesful trails competitors and their dogs in my area and the gentleman who is now in charge of essex polices puppy training unit came to me. I have competed and won at obiediencewith a 1/4 staffie, 1/4 english bull terrier, 1/2 JRT- I have also trained a German hunting terrier to competition level for search and tracking, I never stayed at agility for long enough to get anywhere because the badly behaved/aggressive/noisy dogs got on my nerves and just upset me and my dogs-I also managed to have these dogs living inside a household with very young children and walk them sociably with any dogs or people around on any given day.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

Calling operant conditioning theoretical as opposed to practical is oxymoronic.

Direct me towards just one of those who competes at National level, successfully, and who supports the claims which you support, and I'll accept your use of the word 'oxymoronic'.

By way of assistance, why not google the ISDS and there you will find a list of the most successful National and Trials winning Sheepdog trainers. Whilst you're at it, carry out a revue of the IGL and you will be able to source all those who've won the International Championships in all Gundog disciplines. Those who succeed have websites and 'phone numbers and they're mostly, amenable and courteous people. i'd be interested to hear of the responses which you receive.

Just a short question for you, and the answer may help me to understand your stance; 'Do you believe that dogs suffer from depression'? It's a serious question.

Alec.

 

[CorvusCorax]

All trainers use classical or operant conditioning or a mixture of both. It is how dogs learn. Either making a link between two previously unlinked things, or making a link between their own behaviour and a consequence, be that good or bad.
Not all trainers call it that.

 

[wkiwi]

An interesting discussion about what a behaviourist is.....
Actually, my original comment referred to getting help from someone who had experience re-socialising dogs that were fear aggressive - whether or not they have specific quals that they use to call themselves a behaviourist or not, and whether or not they won a national title in any related sport. I would always go by word of mouth if possible on any work i needed doing (plumber/vet/fence fixer/groom/mechanic etc etc) having had bad experiences and excellent experiences with all sorts of professions/work types. I have also had brilliant riding lessons from people with and without quals and with and without national or international experience.

In regards to 'behaviourists' being a new thing and not to be trusted, the internet is a new thing and I have read absolute rubbish on this forum about all sorts of things, including advice that risks short or long term harm to horses, and including posts from people that are posting for help one minute and setting themselves up as experts the next. I would always by a decent book before believing advice from a complete stranger on the internet that I hadn't seen work with animals, but hey that's just me; I'm old-fashioned.

'behaviourists' per se have been around since man (actually probably woman, as we are softer) first let a wolf puppy into the tribe. Call them what you will!
As with anyone there are the good, the bad, and the masses of in-betweens.
Not returning to this post, but pm me if you want a beef.

 

[Booboos]

Direct me towards just one of those who competes at National level, successfully, and who supports the claims which you support, and I'll accept your use of the word 'oxymoronic'.

By way of assistance, why not google the ISDS and there you will find a list of the most successful National and Trials winning Sheepdog trainers. Whilst you're at it, carry out a revue of the IGL and you will be able to source all those who've won the International Championships in all Gundog disciplines. Those who succeed have websites and 'phone numbers and they're mostly, amenable and courteous people. i'd be interested to hear of the responses which you receive.

Just a short question for you, and the answer may help me to understand your stance; 'Do you believe that dogs suffer from depression'? It's a serious question.

Alec.

I have done this already and you never replied. I wrote a long post on another thread with examples of trainers using positive methods and competing in all sorts of disciplines. I find it a bit disingenuous that you ask again.

Well you need to define depression. If it is a neurobiological event, then to the extent that dogs share our neurobiology they are capable of having a similar experience, obviously limited by their cognitive abilities (I.e. no dog will go around wondering whether 'to be or not to be'). If you think it is a psychosocial event then to the extent that dogs share our conception of familial bonds they may feel something similar. If you think it is a psychoanalytic event I would probably have to say that dogs lack the depth of consciousness to have similar experiences.

 

[TrasaM]

However we chose to refer to or name them there are good people about who do understand how dogs operate and communicate. I had huge help from a trainer with my fearful abused rescue. He gave me hope and reassurance when at my lowest point and showed me the way through the minefield that was Sam's reactivity to fear stimuli. He's still a work in progress but a long way from the cowering wreck that was taken from death row two years ago. Dogs can and do change when the correct methods are used. I was taught to use only positive reinforcement but at some point discovered that whilst that was all good and well that the occasional bark from me followed by exclusion was also very effective. It has to be timely though and as CC said try to anticipate and take action before the event.

 

[Fellewell]

I always smile when people say their dog was attacked as a puppy to explain bad behaviour. Perhaps he was attacked because he's a pain in the butt and you've done nothing to address that.

A dog which stalks, hackles up, running in all mouth and trousers just needs training. They need to be more apprehensive of you than anything else and I don't mean punishment. If you've got to the punishment stage then you're clearly wasting your time.
Exercise, socialisation and firm consistent training ie; every activity a training session. Give a command and follow it through to the letter every single time without exception.

The silent and deadly type are a different matter and not for the faint-hearted. You can train over this behaviour but the dog will still signal its intent to other dogs, however well behaved they may appear to onlookers.

I've met so many people with utterly delightful dogs who wouldn't know a behaviourist from a hole in the ground. What does that tell us about all this smoke and mirrors stuff?!

 

[AmyMay]

I always smile when people say their dog was attacked as a puppy to explain bad behaviour.

I don't smile, but it does make me think and wonder about what the owner has done to 'rectify' the situation for their dog.

My little dog was attacked by a black lab last year (she was probably 8 months old). Totally unprovoked and I'd placed her on the lead because I didn't like the look of him. He still had her, but was swiftly booted off by me - thankfully no damage just bruising. The next day I walked her with my friends bunch, which included a black lab, to ensure no negative reactions to labs, and offer reassurance that 'other' dogs are fine. I needn't have worried. Of course she was fine and they all had a ball.

She was attacked again this year by a Spaniel. But again no lasting issues because she's very, very well socialised, and I deliberately got together in the week with another Spaniel owner.

So my rather long winded point is - do people actually ensure that an attack is 'no big thing' by ensuring immediate social interaction with 'safe' dogs? With the caveat that not all dogs are the same, obviously.

As for the OP, I'm sorry, but I would absolutely muzzle your dog. Regardless of the reasons why, it's aggressive to other dogs. And if you can't prevent it from attacking you need to do something to protect other dogs. My dog is a small breed which could be badly hurt or even killed by your dog.

You clearly stated that if she spots another dogs and it either moves or barks she'll attack. That's dangerous.

 

[gunnergundog]

So my rather long winded point is - do people actually ensure that an attack is 'no big thing' by ensuring immediate social interaction with 'safe' dogs? With the caveat that not all dogs are the same, obviously.

.

Yes! I have multiple dogs so they mix at home anyway, but assuming no physical damage would get the 'victim' out asap with a known, steady older dog from outside the pack - ie one that is friendly but unlikely to jump on or hoolie around, just in case there was bruising that wasn;t visible/apparent. You don't want the next encounter to be a painful one!

 

[Fellewell]

I don't smile, but it does make me think and wonder about what the owner has done to 'rectify' the situation for their dog.

My little dog was attacked by a black lab last year (she was probably 8 months old). Totally unprovoked and I'd placed her on the lead because I didn't like the look of him. He still had her, but was swiftly booted off by me - thankfully no damage just bruising. The next day I walked her with my friends bunch, which included a black lab, to ensure no negative reactions to labs, and offer reassurance that 'other' dogs are fine. I needn't have worried. Of course she was fine and they all had a ball.

She was attacked again this year by a Spaniel. But again no lasting issues because she's very, very well socialised, and I deliberately got together in the week with another Spaniel owner.

So my rather long winded point is - do people actually ensure that an attack is 'no big thing' by ensuring immediate social interaction with 'safe' dogs? With the caveat that not all dogs are the same, obviously.

As for the OP, I'm sorry, but I would absolutely muzzle your dog. Regardless of the reasons why, it's aggressive to other dogs. And if you can't prevent it from attacking you need to do something to protect other dogs. My dog is a small breed which could be badly hurt or even killed by your dog.

You clearly stated that if she spots another dogs and it either moves or barks she'll attack. That's dangerous.

One thing I really abhor is owners who allow their loose dogs to approach a dog on the lead. This is totally unacceptable in my book. You've obviously continued the work your dog's breeder began. Bitches don't muck about when they discipline their pups and those eight weeks are crucial to discipline and socialisation. Any responsible owner will build on this as you have done.

 

[Luci07]

I would muzzle as well why you try to sort this out. You can buy a soft one rather than the cage effect. If it goes wrong and your dog does attack another, you would be mortified.