Aggressive dog - to rehome or pts?

[angela_l_b]

We have an awful decision to make over our dog - she's a 5 year old GSD / rottie who we got as a rescue 4 years ago. She was never good with other dogs and despite trying 4 different trainers and sending her away to 'boot camp' for weeks of intensive training (we went too) she is still aggressive. We are generally able to control it when on the lead but we have to be on the ball all the time. If another dog comes along which we haven't seen then she'll go for it, and she's a big strong dog to try and hold. If we see another dog before she does, we can get her attention using the techniques we learnt on boot camp, and generally the situation stays under control - but it doesn't make walks very relaxing or pleasant. She has become much worse since we had a baby in January - her protective instincts have kicked in.

There have been 3 serious incidents with her. Once the garden gate was left open and we didn't see it - she mooched out onto the road and a dog was passing and she attacked it - it needed a lot of stitches (it was only a miniature Schnauzer, poor thing) but eventually was ok. This was when we sent her away for training as a last resort.

Then a while ago she bit the neighbour's dog - we gave her the benefit of the doubt on this occasion as the other dog put her head through the fence into our garden.

Yesterday we were visiting my mother-in-law, who has a dog she has known for years and previously was ok with, but she attacked him very aggressively. My husband was near enough to stop her before she did any damage, but she was trying to hurt him, even though she knew that he was no threat to her or us.

We have realised that she is beyond our control and that it is only a matter of time before she does damage to another dog. We live in a busy village with dogs passing all the time as we are on the footpath to the river, and I can't guarantee that the gate will never be left open again for the rest of her life - or that we manage to control her for every moment on a walk. Our only alternative is to muzzle her at all times when she is out of the house - we do use a muzzle when walking but she still tries to attack, which isn't pleasant for the other dog or owner.

Does anyone think that there is a possibility of finding another home for her where she is unlikely to meet another dog (in the middle of nowhere, perhaps?). My only hope is that a new owner might be able to be dominant over her from the start, which we failed to do, meaning that she has felt that she needs to protect us and herself.

It seems to me that noone would really want a dog like this. Should we just have her pts, even though it breaks our hearts? I should say that she is beautifully behaved at home and very good with people, children and horses. If she had ever shown aggression towards people she would have been pts a long time ago.

Any thoughts or ideas would be very welcome. I realise we have made a lot of mistakes and that we have unintentionally created a huge problem, and do accept the blame for this - we are trying to do the best thing in an awful situation, so please be constructive only.

Thank you. Sorry this is so long.

 

[BBH]

What a horrible situation to find yourself in. I really don't envy you at all with such a decision. My first thoughts i have to be honest were to PTS as a dog like that is no fun, but when I read she is fine with humans, kids etc I had second thoughts.

I wold definitely keep her muzzled and on the lead when she is walked but if she is fine at home I probably give her the benefit of the doubt however,

if I ever saw any signs of aggression with the baby as he / she grows i'm afraid the dog would be PTS.

So sorry,

xx

 

[BigRed]

I know that people will shoot me down for this, but yes, I do think you should do the responsible thing and have her pts.

I know its not the dogs fault and that some early experiences have "damaged" her. I also think you have tried very hard to resolve this problem. But if one of my dogs consistently went for other dogs and actually bit them, I would not hesitate to have them pts.

Saying that the dog is fine with people is not acceptable, what if someone tries to intervene between your dog and theirs - they are very likely to get bitten - do you really want that on your conscience ?

 

[Maesfen]

I wouldn't have thought there was a need to even ask. I agree with tracey01 completely.
A child could be in the firing line next, do you really want that to happen?

 

[AmyMay]

I would PTS.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I'm sorry but I too think pts would be best. I am not of the opinion that if a dog is aggressive with other dogs it may one day attack a child, however, as your baby gets bigger and starts walking there is a chance she might get in the middle of a fight. It sounds like you have done everything you can to overcome this problem, without success. You have a combination of 2 strong breeds there (don't get me started on such crosses) and the capablity is there for her to do some serious damage to another dog.

 

[spike123]

I'm afraid I also agree with pts. The dog has proven already that it has some serious issues and can be aggressive with other dogs.I also don't think the dog would deliberately harm your child but as already said she could at some point be in the wrong situation with the dog and get bitten as a result.You have tried your best and sought expert help which has been unsuccessful.Rehoming her into the middle of nowhere while it may suit her to a degree is unlikely to be the right thing to do as there is the possibility that she may well show agression in some other way and end up harming someone and being passed on again into an unsuitable situation.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Have read your post several times and really feel for you, a really awful situation to be in.

You have had professional help regarding her aggressive behaviour, to no avail. Since the birth of your baby her aggression is escalating and she's become unpredicatable. For me, personally, I would put her to sleep. You and your family must come first. Even though she has not deliberately attacked people, I would be very concerned having a baby and a dog with that nature in the house. Take comfort that you have tried to sort her and given her chances that many wouldn't have. Sometimes you have accept that with all the will in the world, you cannot fix some dogs.

 

[Miss Marple]

Do you not know any one that needs a yard dog?

i.e. my livery yard owner has 2 GSD guard dogs - they only go out at night after all the liveries have left and the owners put them away first thing in the morning and its good luck to any intruders!!

 

[abercrombie&titch]

What a very sad tale... you have clearly tried all the things normally recommended. A new baby in the family often changes things in a dogs perspective - in this case not in a constructive way. Unless you are able to find a very specialist home I don't think rehoming is an option.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I understand that it makes it even more difficult for you to decide to euthanise her when she is well behaved in all other ways, but after 4 trainers and weeks at 'boot camp', you've done more than many others in similar situations that I've heard about.
Yes, you've probably made mistakes with her, but I don't know one dog owner who hasn't done any mistakes with their dogs. I've soon been a dog owner for almost 20 years and I still make new mistakes, I'm happy as long as I manage to avoid not making the same mistake twice.


I think I once told CaveCanem that I thought her dog sensed that she tensed when she anticipated his reaction, no matter how, her Bodo is a different dog now. As I understand, one of the things she began with, was to sing for herself when she saw another dog. When she began to pretended as if, either, other dogs didn't exist or if they did, her dog had no problems with them, Bodo couldn't build up the same aggression as he had became used to do, because CC was no longer, unknowingly, sending him signals that the situation was something to become tense about.

After all, when you see another dog, will you not begin to think about how your bitch will react next? The problem is that she does not know that your concerns is about her possible/likely reaction, she only knows that you become concerned, tense about something and voila, next moment she sees the other dog and reacts! And once she has "exploded", the majority of sensible owners doesn't react as if nothing is happening *I'm in Lalalalala-land*, without tends to focus on what is happening, but if you do that, she will see that as a signal from you and once again, she doesn't know that it all has to do with her behaviour, all she knows is that you became tense, another dog turns up and then, you just become more and more tense...

Since those situations is difficult, unpleasant and a worry for you, it is fully understandable if you then probably have tried to avoid meeting other dogs, but that doesn't help the situation. If you really want to try just one more thing, my advice would probably be that you go to a park used by other dog owners, bring a foldable camping chair, a crossword, book, music and/or something for you to entertain yourself with, plus a beef cut in tiny small pieces and tie her to a tree or lamppost somewhere in the outer edges of the park. Then sit there for a few hours, if she ignores the other dogs you reward her, if she doesn't ignore the other dogs you pretend as if she is not there and focus on your crossword, book etc.


Personally, I would not rehome her, even though I thought I had found her the perfect home, I would worry myself sick about that she still somehow could end up in the wrong hands.


Other than that, I can only say that I think that dog owning should be enjoyable, okay if it includes some problems that you may need to work on or habits that you might become accustomed to live with, but overall, I feel that it first and foremost should be a pleasure to be a dog owner.
Though I don't have any problems with if a truly rude dog gets told off and even though I don't expect my bitches to tolerate just anything and everything, it is for me completely different when I worry about that the garden gate accidentally might be open when they go out in the garden one day, if my worry is regarding that it could lead to that they might get hit by a car or disappear, or if I worry about what they could do with another dog that perhaps innocently walks past, just as they "escape".

I don't believe they know how long they could have lived and many years ago, when I had to euthanise a bitch only about 2 years old, with both health and mental problems, we went out to our summer home in the middle of the winter, gave her a few days with doing her favourite things and then we stopped by at the vets on the way home.
It broke my heart and though we attended puppy class and 2 further dog classes, took her to vets and dog psychologist, without that anything helped, I still wonder if there was not something more I could have done. But I simply have to accept that I did the best I could there and then.

 

[CAYLA]

Im not going to say either way, but to add, she is in yours hands and if you don't feel confident enough to tackle the issue and you are now fearful/intense with the situation , then it's not a good one, with aggression you have to have the ability to over come your own fear, otherwise you will deal with that through avoidance which will heighten the problem, plus the gate opening sceanrio which is not a good one.
I have worked with very aggressive dogs, brought them and intergrated them into my pack, and some have gone on the be fine and never looked back, some have had to come back, where I must say I have seen the owner make the same mistake again, or basically still be as tense with the dog as the first day they brought it, it's also very hard once the dog returns home and is segrigated for most of the time from other dogs, because the tendancy towards aggression will commonly return.
Good on you for trying so far.

 

[angela_l_b]

Thanks so much to everyone for responding sympathetically and trying to help.

I know that our own confidence needs to be there for us to be able to handle her while out and about - this is mostly what we worked on while on training and we did get to a point where we can walk with her obediently to heel and cope nicely when another dog comes along. I am not scared to walk her, and I know that I can deal with other dogs - we can walk past them on a path and be in control - however if my attention is distracted even momentarily and another dog appears then she will lunge at it, so we get into a tug of war. I can hold her, but it's not pretty and it sets us back each time.

This isn't actually the main problem at the moment. I worry more that as her dislike of other dogs hasn't been solved, she will always be trying to get out of the garden to get at any that are passing, and that one day she will manage it.

Cayla, if you see this - do you manage to integrate dogs into a pack even with problems like this, and do they become accepting of other dogs as a result? I'd be really interested to know more about your methods (do you offer training?) - I never stop hoping for another last resort...

Thanks to all who replied - I really appreciate your opinions. xxx

 

[Vizslak]

Try Pming Cayla, she doesn't always check back on threads.
x

 

[Alexart]

I would PTS personally as she is basically a ticking time bomb - especially with a baby about. I knew a lady that had a dog aggressive dog, and one of the children got in the way when it went for another of their dogs, the child bore the brunt of the attack and had to have stitches - the dog was PTS, you just can't risk it. If it went for another dog on a lead and the owner tried to separate and gets attacked in the process you could end up in serious trouble with the law for knowingly having a dangerous dog, or even if it killed someone else's precious pet then you could also be taken to court. Having a dog is supposed to be fun and enjoyable.

 

[CAYLA]

Try Pming Cayla, she doesn't always check back on threads.
x

A ha....u know me too well, good job I cannot sleep and on the night shift

 

[CAYLA]

bollix....I just typed a massive reply, and it said I was not able to reply cos I was not logged in...........well how the feck was I able to type then I hate this god damn forum!

 

[CAYLA]

After my temper tantrum, I basically said Yes I do deal with extreme aggression, and I explained what I do in depthy Arghhhhhhh.

My ma has a rescue with no less than 30 dogs in at a time, we have never had to send a dog out with the label "not to be rehomed with other dogs" and they mix, even if handed in a raving beasts, they all intergrate, maybe some only when supervised but they are never kept apart from other dogs at all times.

I have 9 dogs all pretty well adjusted and laid back and they all bring something different and helpful when im bringing in an aggressive dog, some will blank them, some are not easily hurt if a dog does turn as they are so humungus, some are dominant some submissive, some playful.

I don't bring dogs in for mine to fight them, I always step in to reprimand, im confident and im very firm with a loud mouth, it's enough to scare the hardiest of dogs and their owners
I tend to find most dogs have never been reprimanded or put in their place as they should be for this level of behaviour (after all it is or can be a dangerous one)
I like the dog to eventually look for guidance before making a sudden reaction, that tells me, they are always aware there a consiquence for their action.
I nearly always placed them directly amongst the dogs, they find it startling and cannot fixate on one as theyre are to many, truely aggressive dogs will try to get tucked straight into a fight, the less confident ones will site with their bum hidden and snap at the other dogs, onced this meet is over I walk them together, feed them together, play with the ball thrower together and tackle lead walking with them using the same reprimand (which is usally a cesar style dig and a command) "LEAVE IT", I did this most recently with a very aggressive boxer, he was an x stud dog, and first time he was let off he ran straight for a dog and proceeded to grip it's throat and try to kill it
He looked at me as if to say "Jaysus, what the heck was that for" and that was it, the quickest response I have ever gotten from a dog, I called his owners to my house within an hour of me taking him and they where amazed, the fella was 7ft tall he just needed to be firm with the dog, like the big gobbed midget he was speaking too

Some dogs are truely aggressive/dominant, some are cowardly aggressive and some scared aggressive, u have to beable to differentiate, to understand the level of aggression (all in the body language and the reaction) and how best to deal with it.

I honesty find it easy to work with the dog but hard to get the message across to the owner and have faith they will carry on with the trining and listen to what they are being advised.

A dog may never become anothers best pal and welcome all for friendly play but they can be controlled to learn the consiqence for their actions, they need to be more interested in your next move no the dog they once fixated on ( had this issues with the staffi x whiipet x grey in the introduce your dogs post)
I kept this dog because after all the work I have put into her I don't want it undoing, which is sad cos im kinda saying "know one else is capable" and there are, there has to be, but I simply won't take that risk, she was literally picking up smaller dogs and trying to rag them to death and take them away with her and attacking larger dogs, she now knows I am very much aware, and she knows what the reprimand is, so she now avoids the bahaviour, she can be let off and live a normal life with me.

The one thing u do need it to be confident in your handling and firm, otherwise u are a weak leader and the dog knos that, I don't have children so im not in your shoes if that is your main worry, I do know I would still have the amount of dogs I do now and still deal with dogs with behavioural issues, but thats me and what im used to.

The gate is an issues and you need to make it escape proof, either heighten, lock or get a one of those springs that slmas it shut automatically when it is left open.
Most dogs will defend their property, and certainly run to ward off a dog or go further and bite, it's up to us to reclaim that right and the dog will be made to be aware it is not acceptible.
I have 2 yapping rats out the back of me, and they wind me and my dogs up rotten, the days of my dogs running at the fence at them are over when I decided it was, now they will lay and ignore them, the fence is 7ft high and doubled, so they are safe for now Im sure my akita would love to carry them off to her kennel.

A few questions

How do you react when she attacks another dog?
Does she nip and come away or smother and fight?
What do u walk her in, lead/collar type?
Does she have recall around dogs, or does she make a bee line for them?
Has she ever been around dogs and been calm and non aggressive?

Im replying now before it's lost.

 

[angela_l_b]

Cayla, thanks so much for the huuuuuge response... especially as you had to type it twice! - sending a crate of champagne your way...

In answer to your questions -


How do you react when she attacks another dog?
With the 3 more serious attacks, TBH we have simply been fire fighting - getting her off and secure, checking other dog, dealing with owner etc. On less serious occasions we were taught to keep walkling confidently with her to heel on a choke collar, and keeping her attention using a bottle of stones if necessary, rattling near her head - making sure she pays attention to us and not other dog. Watching body language - ears and tail should be down, not up and alert. If she lunges, to pull back from a slack lead with my full body weight, and use my voice in a growly way. Sometimes works, sometimes not. I think a large part of our failure here is that when things go wrong and she goes for another dog all I can do is pull her away - by which time the other owner has gathered their dog up and vanished. Idealy I'd like to walk past it over and over for practise, but this isn't realistic.


Does she nip and come away or smother and fight?
I think originally it was nip and come away but has got worse - she goes for the throat. So far no other dogs have fought back.


What do u walk her in, lead/collar type?
Choke collar and training lead (approx 2m)


Does she have recall around dogs, or does she make a bee line for them?
Depends how close - if within a few metres she'll go for them. Otherwise she has recall.

Has she ever been around dogs and been calm and non aggressive?
Yes - there are many dogs she has got on fine with (dogs and bitches) - mostly once she has met other dogs she can be fine with them. She doesn't like other dominant bitches and there have been a couple she never got on with but generally she's ok after a couple of meetings. However I moved yards quite recently and can't take her any more - she used to socialise with others at the yard. Maybe she's getting worse partly because she's not used to others so much?

Can I ask what you would do? - and would you consider taking her to work with? As I said, I'll try anything to stop her being pts - I am willing to work into training or would rehome her somewhere else if I personally couldn't handle her well enough. I'd be really grateful for an opinion / advice.

I don't worry about her and the baby now - she adores him, she comes and nudges me BEFORE he starts crying, and would lick him away if allowed to. But as others have said, when he's more mobile he just might get in the middle of something and we can't have this. So we have to deal with it now...

 

[CAYLA]

I Pm'ed you this am....just incase u missed it.

 

[angela_l_b]

Ha - just replied. Thanks!

 

[Chris J]

I am in the same situation with my Belgian Shepherd except he is people reactive too. I didn't create this behaviour, I have done so much learning to try to help him but am coming to the same conclusion as you, it is really tough. I don't envy you at all my advice is this don't let anyone influence your decision either way, it must be your decision and you must live with it. If you do decide to euthanize your dog try to look at it positively, you have never abused her and you gave her a happy life for as long as you were able to, you have listened to many people and taken their advice, if you can tick everythin off the following list you have been open minded to everything.

Adversives (choke chains, being stern and tough, sprays etc)
Clicker Training
Calming Caps
TTouch wraps and groundwork
Heelwork based counter conditioning with groundwork.

I have tried all of the above, have had dogs before and had great success. I don't envy you it is really tough. You have my greatest sympathy.

 

[bonnie93]

havent read the other posts, but in my opinion you shud pts, it may not be nice but having a child in the house you cannot risk it especially if she has attacked other dogs before. it sounds like you have tried your hardest with training etc so you have done everything you can for her

 

[CorvusCorax]

Guys, this post is old, but it would be interesting to hear an update.

Chris - what type of Belgian Shepherd? Although I have an idea.
As you will know, certain strains of Belgians are just not like other breeds.
They need to work, they need stimulation and if they don't get it, they will make their own entertainment and that is usually entertainment we see as negative.
A lot of them have protection work in their breeding for generations and will naturally react to people coming in at them in a certain way.
As you will no doubt know, they are also incredibly sensitive and often do not take some types of verbal or physical correction well.
They can have huge drive and that drive needs to be diverted and channelled correctly and a good trainer (no offence, but a lot of pet trainers can't cope with these levels of drive) can show you how to do that, if you're prepared to put the work in to turn the dog around.
Apologies if you have been down this route already and I am teaching granny to suck eggs - educating yourself is fine, but nothing works more than the right pair of fresh eyes - but if you have tried a number of trainers who are used to working breeds of dog, if you can admit to yourself that you are being strong and following their advice to the letter, then it's time to start wondering if the dog is beyond help.

Neither of the dogs mentioned in this post should be rehomed IMO.

Also - dog aggression does not always equal aggression to humans/children - a lot of dog aggression is actually caused through the handler unwittingly passing vibes to their own dog and is motivated by defence of their 'pack' - although as mentioned, the danger comes if a child is in the way of another dog and the aggressor decides to attack.

We did have a human-aggressive, hugely over-protective GSD put to sleep when I was a baby, he would have killed someone in his misplaced defence of us and my mother could not have lived with herself if he had ended up a guard dog chained up on a yard (Miss Marple, that's not much of a life for those dogs ) or had gone on to seriously hurt someone in the hands of someone else, because she passed on a problem for someone else to deal with.

 

[Foxyfilly]

Sorry you are your wits end.

Worth a call to Penel or Laura at

www.dogcommunication.co.uk

I know someone who rescued a big GSD x and he was awful with
other dogs. he started to go the groups, improved so much that
they now use him as a teaching dog!

In the mean time, buy a muzzle. A gentle leader or similar and
only let her off when there are no other dogs around.

Good luck.

 

[tweedette]

The dog in question should NEVER have been rehomed , simple as that, all its done is damage , both to other dogs and distress to the people who took it on - grrrrrr I hate this kind of thing, dogooders!!! Shakes head and walks off.

 

[Ranyhyn]

OP you are working so hard for this dog, if the time every comes, then please don't feel you failed her, you have worked a LOT harder than others would have bothered. x

 

[3DE]

OP I'm not going to offer an opinion if this is an old post. I really feel for you What did you decide in the end?

 

[Angelbones]

Have read your post several times and really feel for you, a really awful situation to be in.

You have had professional help regarding her aggressive behaviour, to no avail. Since the birth of your baby her aggression is escalating and she's become unpredicatable. For me, personally, I would put her to sleep. You and your family must come first. Even though she has not deliberately attacked people, I would be very concerned having a baby and a dog with that nature in the house. Take comfort that you have tried to sort her and given her chances that many wouldn't have. Sometimes you have accept that with all the will in the world, you cannot fix some dogs.

I agree. The fact that as of now the dog is good with children / people is good, but there's no guarantee that she'll stay that way. It sounds like a nightmare walking her, you have to be on watch constantly, and that's going to become impossible when your child is toddling along next to you and you have to keep your eyes on the child and not the dog. Which one will you let go of when walking down a road if the dog goes for another dog and you are off balance - the child or the dog?

I would have said yes, try to find her a rural home somewhere but I can see this possibly leading to her abuse and in the wrong hands she could find herself being asked to be a guard dog and end up being very confused.

My heart breaks for you, but I think perhaps you already deep down know what you ought to do .

So sorry x

 

[Chris J]

CaveCanem

In answer to your question he is a Tervuren, Several trainers have seen him and all have said he is the worst they have ever seen, he is a lot better than he was when I got him. I am afraid that this one is not so simple as channelling he drive, my last Border Collie was a case like this, she went on to do agility and field work with me, she was fantastic at hearding absolutely anything and had fantastic recall. No offense taken since I am not one of those people, I never look for dogs that just mooch along requiring no mental stimulation, this one is different.

I have a saying with working with animals "everyone is an expert", I know because I used to think I had the answers, the most recent dog I trained gets comments daily about how brilliant he is (Groendael) he has high drive and is focused on his handler, 100% recall, sit and stay in the presence of distractions, perfect on and off leash heelwork and has never been to one indoor training class or dog show, although he could handle the stress of the situation if required.

I used to teach people how to suck eggs, I don't anymore and my confidence as someone who works with dogs will be completely knocked if I do end up deciding to kill/murder/euthanise/pts my dog.

I have no problem calling a spade a spade here and no problem accepting criticism, hence why on various professionals advice I have.

kept him in for a week to reduce stimulation
used Ttouch groundwork and wraps
clicker trained good heel groundwork in the absence of distractions
de sensitised and rewarded focus on me in the presence of distractions
Generally spent hours every day for the past year reinforcing behaviour that I desire.
Tried silent walks once a week
Taught the dog to follow me through doorways and outside.
Put everything that is a potential reward under my control and made the dog work for it.

The list goes on and on.

On the positive I have managed to socialise him with one other dog, this was before he reached maturity but since he became sexually mature his progress stopped, had him castrated, this has made no diffeerence, spent £600 pounds on having.

Hips X-rayed
Bloods for every allergy going (both under advise from well renound trainers), personally I didn't see any clinical signs but hey what do I know, I was right, they both came back clear.

Tried Serene-UM
Xyclene
DAP
and homeopathic drops of 3 different varieties.

Done ball retrieve work, not allowing him to chase other things in the hope that his chase drive could be put under stimulus control. A trainer told me this was over stimulating him so I withdrew it, no difference.

I could go on but will run out of space. Sufficient to say about the only things I have not tried are a prong collar, E-collar and citronella spray.

I used to think I was good with animals and now I am not so sure, on the upside I have no problems with him in the house. As I say to people who reckon it is me "please take him, prove yourself right" I would be so happy if he didn't behave this way with someone else, so far I have had no takers no one else is mental enough to put their money where their mouth is, I have been.