Aggressive dog - to rehome or pts?

Yeah, I thought you sounded like you knew your stuff which is why I apologised in advance with the egg-sucking comment!

I am staggered by your commitment to this dog where others would have thrown in the towel a long time ago.

While not at your level, I'm another one who thought I knew a lot about dogs until my current one came along.

You know yourself, you could try electrics or a prong, it might do something, but by the sounds of him, if he is that sensitive to stimulus that could make the problems worse.

I hope you both find a solution but I don't think anybody could knock you if you did decide to give him sleep after everything you've tried x
 
I feel for you - it must be so heartbreaking :(

Chris J said:
I could go on but will run out of space. Sufficient to say about the only things I have not tried are a prong collar, E-collar and citronella spray.
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Please don't use an ecollar or citronella spray with him - they can make aggressive dogs worse. I know someone who (against my advice) used an ecollar to stock train a prey driven lurcher. Instead of the dog just chasing the sheep it decided it had better kill them before they hurt him - it associated the pain of the ecollar with the sheep :(

I believe they have a place - I use them for recall with one of my lurchers, but they do not work for training or punishment in any effective manner. IMO they should only be used for recall, and then only as a 'nudge' on the lowest setting to grab the dog's attention.

I know what you mean about everyone an expert - been through that myself :( I was told by numerous people to have my boy PTS as he wouldn't recall and was destructive if not exercised off lead. Perseverance and trying methods I didn't believe in at the time resulted in a dog that has good enough recall do do agility :) You'll get there x x x

You say you have tried wraps to make him more secure - along a similar line is to put them in a tight human tshirt. It seems to give them security.

I don't know if you have tried this but have you considered how you approach other dogs? A direct line can be perceieved as very intimidating/aggressive so he may react badly because of this. Have you considered changing your path to an arc when you see another dog - this is how dogs behave off lead when approching a new dog (less threatening).

I have worked with a guy called Jim Greenwood with my boy - he is amazing. He's not like a normal dog trainer - he specialises in difficult and working dogs. His details can be found with a quick search on www.lurcherlink.org. It's a great forum with some very knowledgeable people (even welcome if you don't have a lurcher :)). Here's Jim's linky http://jimgreenwood.co.uk/default.aspx

Someone in a similar situation...http://www.lurcherlink.org/llink/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64108&highlight=jim+greenwood
 
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ITA agree about e-collars, anyone I know who has used one successfully, has not used it as a punishment, more, an 'Oi!' and with a breed like Chris has, the dog might, as you say, become more aggressive or even handler aggressive - you hurt me, I'll hurt you back/defend myself - not a risk everyone would want to take.
 
I have not followed this, I thought it was someone findingt he old post and replying, are these dog on dog aggression issues or dog/human aggression issues, sorry I have read so far back, got a bit to much on me plate.
 
Sounds to me as though ChrisJ`s dog could well be an excellent protection/patrol dog with sound training.I would put him in the for rehoming section in Patrol and Protection Dog forum,there are always real working dog/security guys on the look in there.Everyone`s problem dog can become someone else`s treasure..two of mine were just that,and are now well looked after guard dogs and highly thought of.
 
CAYLA said:
After my temper tantrum, I basically said Yes I do deal with extreme aggression, and I explained what I do in depthy:mad: Arghhhhhhh.

My ma has a rescue with no less than 30 dogs in at a time, we have never had to send a dog out with the label "not to be rehomed with other dogs" and they mix, even if handed in a raving beasts, they all intergrate, maybe some only when supervised but they are never kept apart from other dogs at all times.

I have 9 dogs all pretty well adjusted and laid back and they all bring something different and helpful when im bringing in an aggressive dog, some will blank them, some are not easily hurt if a dog does turn as they are so humungus:D, some are dominant some submissive, some playful.

I don't bring dogs in for mine to fight them, I always step in to reprimand, im confident and im very firm with a loud mouth, it's enough to scare the hardiest of dogs and their owners:D
I tend to find most dogs have never been reprimanded or put in their place as they should be for this level of behaviour (after all it is or can be a dangerous one)
I like the dog to eventually look for guidance before making a sudden reaction, that tells me, they are always aware there a consiquence for their action.
I nearly always placed them directly amongst the dogs, they find it startling and cannot fixate on one as theyre are to many, truely aggressive dogs will try to get tucked straight into a fight, the less confident ones will site with their bum hidden and snap at the other dogs, onced this meet is over I walk them together, feed them together, play with the ball thrower together and tackle lead walking with them using the same reprimand (which is usally a cesar style dig and a command) "LEAVE IT", I did this most recently with a very aggressive boxer, he was an x stud dog, and first time he was let off he ran straight for a dog and proceeded to grip it's throat and try to kill it:eek:
He looked at me as if to say "Jaysus, what the heck was that for" and that was it, the quickest response I have ever gotten from a dog:D, I called his owners to my house within an hour of me taking him and they where amazed, the fella was 7ft tall:eek: he just needed to be firm with the dog, like the big gobbed midget he was speaking too:D

Some dogs are truely aggressive/dominant, some are cowardly aggressive and some scared aggressive, u have to beable to differentiate, to understand the level of aggression (all in the body language and the reaction) and how best to deal with it.

I honesty find it easy to work with the dog but hard to get the message across to the owner and have faith they will carry on with the trining and listen to what they are being advised.

A dog may never become anothers best pal and welcome all for friendly play but they can be controlled to learn the consiqence for their actions, they need to be more interested in your next move no the dog they once fixated on ( had this issues with the staffi x whiipet x grey in the introduce your dogs post)
I kept this dog because after all the work I have put into her I don't want it undoing, which is sad cos im kinda saying "know one else is capable" and there are, there has to be, but I simply won't take that risk, she was literally picking up smaller dogs and trying to rag them to death and take them away with her:eek: and attacking larger dogs, she now knows I am very much aware, and she knows what the reprimand is, so she now avoids the bahaviour, she can be let off and live a normal life with me.

The one thing u do need it to be confident in your handling and firm, otherwise u are a weak leader and the dog knos that, I don't have children so im not in your shoes if that is your main worry, I do know I would still have the amount of dogs I do now and still deal with dogs with behavioural issues, but thats me and what im used to.

The gate is an issues and you need to make it escape proof, either heighten, lock or get a one of those springs that slmas it shut automatically when it is left open.
Most dogs will defend their property, and certainly run to ward off a dog or go further and bite, it's up to us to reclaim that right and the dog will be made to be aware it is not acceptible.
I have 2 yapping rats out the back of me, and they wind me and my dogs up rotten, the days of my dogs running at the fence at them are over when I decided it was, now they will lay and ignore them, the fence is 7ft high and doubled, so they are safe for now:rolleyes: Im sure my akita would love to carry them off to her kennel:D.

A few questions

How do you react when she attacks another dog?
Does she nip and come away or smother and fight?
What do u walk her in, lead/collar type?
Does she have recall around dogs, or does she make a bee line for them?
Has she ever been around dogs and been calm and non aggressive?

Im replying now before it's lost.
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It seems that this in an old thread. A pity. That, Cayla, was a near perfect response. By now, however, I would think that a decision has been made.

There are those dogs which require specialist handling. It doesn't seem, to me, that the original poster, had those abilities. I'm not sitting in judgement, it's just a fact.

In my view, re-homing to a pet home, probably wouldn't be an answer. PTS would be. Sad, but possibly the most sensible option.

The interesting thing, about this thread, is that it has thrown up so many questions, and potential answers!

Alec.
 
Christmas_Crackers said:
Please don't use an ecollar or citronella spray with him - they can make aggressive dogs worse. I know someone who (against my advice) used an ecollar to stock train a prey driven lurcher. Instead of the dog just chasing the sheep it decided it had better kill them before they hurt him - it associated the pain of the ecollar with the sheep :(

I believe they have a place - I use them for recall with one of my lurchers, but they do not work for training or punishment in any effective manner. IMO they should only be used for recall, and then only as a 'nudge' on the lowest setting to grab the dog's attention.
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I actually used an ecollar with great success to stock train my prey driven lurcher :) I only had to shock him twice and he will now walk through a field of sheep and ignore them totally, he has done this now for years with no relapse. I accept the effectiveness of any training aid depends on the temperament of the animal and the handler and I'm not saying I'd recommend it for Chris J's dog - my JRT's first reaction is to snap at anything that irritates / hurts her so I wouldn't use it on her in case she turned on an innocent bystander (not that she would need it anyway being a very trainable dog).

Interestingly I am doing agility with my whippet mainly to improve his recall and it is working very well :D
 
We also used one for stock training, as recommended by Jim Greenwood. I know
they say not to use one for dog to dog aggression as it will make things worse.

One of my dogs isnt brilliant with other dogs, I muzzle him and walk in isolated area's.
He also has issues with men, we manage fine though ;)
 
Brownmare I think you and Christmas Crackers are in agreement, what I think the point is, is that you need to know how and when to use them, IE, oi, look at me, positive, not Bad Dog - Zap.

As you mention, I have never seen one used successfully for dog aggression as a deterrent, as if you get the timing wrong it hypes them up further.
 
CaveCanem said:
Brownmare I think you and Christmas Crackers are in agreement, what I think the point is, is that you need to know how and when to use them, IE, oi, look at me, positive, not Bad Dog - Zap.

As you mention, I have never seen one used successfully for dog aggression as a deterrent, as if you get the timing wrong it hypes them up further.
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Hmm kind of - let me describe what I did with Oscar:

First off he wore the collar for a couple of weeks to get him used to it and let him learn to ignore it. During this time I kept him away from sheep and stepped up the normal treat / toy based recall training. Once I felt he was totally ignoring the collar I "accidentally" allowed him to get ahead of me into a sheep field and his reaction was to leg it after them (as expected). At this point I called him back as I normally would but when he got close to the sheep I shocked him on full strength until he turned away from them (I was calling him back to me during this time). As soon as he was looking away from the sheep I stopped the shocking (less than 10 seconds BTW) and when he came back to me I made a huge fuss of him along the lines of "Poor Oscar did the nasty sheep hurt you, I will keep you safe".

After this he wore the collar as normal for about a year but it was never needed until we moved house when he decided to try it on with the new sheep and the procedure was much as above only far quicker and less dramatic.

If I had used the collar on anything less than the full strength his adrenalin would have let him ignore it but the most important aspect was that he did not associate either me or the collar with the shock, only the sheep - timing must be perfect.
 
To answer a few more of your questions.

Approach dogs in curves, I use a head halter to direct attention and not let him get locked into a fixed stare. We have tried a thunder shirt too (the t-shirt someone mentioned) and also calming caps. He will tolerate the calming cap in the crate in the car and for about a minute out of the car, I have been working on this for the last 2 months or so. As to re-homing as a protection dog, I don't think this would really work He shows very little balance and focus during the aggressive chase, whilst it is true that he could be trained for snutzhund (spelling a bit iffy here) and believe me I have thought of putting this under stimulus control with his lack of handler focus and his hyper nature it would be a risky thing to do to say the least. Good protection dogs are trained not to act off their own bat first.

As a guard dog he would bark but not reliably bite and is a guard dog any life for a sensitive breed, besides in order to do protection work of any kind his dog-dog issues would have to be sorted first.

To start protection training a proper assessment of the dog is required, they look for confidence and a lack of fear as well as balance focus and drive. I am afraid he would fail this assessment. The other Belgian I have trained would be a superb dog to start this kind of work with, personally I get very little pleasure from training this behaviour and I believe that it creates many problems both for dogs and the wider society. Most professional trainers that do work with private clients wanting to train protection do a psychological assessment of the owner as well as the dog before proceeding.

Of course if any of you know someone who would like to assess him and take him on for this kind of work please feel free to message me and get my phone number.
 
Whereabouts are you Chris?

I do agree, while I think EK's suggestion is a useful one, that a sensitive dog already living off his nerves would not be an ideal candidate for service or sport, just my opinion, you used the word 'confidence' and for me, that word is key for any dog doing protection/service work. There are plenty of dogs working under extreme pressure, yes, they look impressive, but are they happy/comfortable/confident/enjoying it?
The Belgians I know personally who do this sort of thing, I don't know, because they are not very approachable.

As you say, if he was in the middle of any discipline and then decided to have a go at a passive dog/dog in the long down or a dog walking along minding it's own business while he was in pursuit of a real offender, then you'd be up poo creek.
 
You see a well trained protection dog shoud be aproachable with the handler present. I have personal expirence with an ex-police dog and his handler, they are trained to greet in 2 ways, the usual sit whilst my head is patted way and the intimidating barking way. I had the stange experience of being licked in the face by this aggressive barking GSD. I knew the handler and knew the dog trusted me, after this incident the dog responded to me. A friend who was observing stated afterwards I thought it was going to bite your face off. I don't know if this sort of work makes for a happy dog, personally I'm in agreement with you.

I have spoken to several other trainers about training him for this sort of thing and the consensus is a resounding "you must be kidding". I usually write down my answer before asking the question and this is what I have thought all along.

If a protection dog is not approachable then they have only managed to train their dog to be the same as mine and let me assure you he is not a happy content dog. Loads of lip licking outside regular shake offs. When I first got him he wouldn't even pee or poo outside, this took 4 days and lots of tea to crack.

I live in Suffolk by the way. and work with 2 behavioural trainers and a Ttouch Practitioner, several other trainers think we are mad working with this dog at the moment he totally trusts me and will let me touch any part of him but he is very unpredictable around other people. He would also have the issue of not actually targetting the correct offender, this is another test that service dogs must perform, target the offender and ignore the random joe who runs in from the side, the dog needs to be thinking and not just acting on blind instinct. Next Ttouch session we are going to put poles between the two people in order to try to slow his approach, last session we had jumping up of the other person but no bite (which is good), he is obviously muzzled before some bright spark suggests using a muzzle.

As I say I used to be one of those people with every dog I had since childhood where random strangers and other dog owners would say "I wish my dog did that" or "how come your dog always comes when called". A friend of mine has a working spaniel when I went round their last week she said, "You are the first person in a long time that that dog will walk for". People I meet have no idea how frustrating this is for me, if you saw me you would probably blame the owner, I am his third. Number 1 being a gang of lads who had fighting dogs, number 2 being a woman who chained him up in her garden with an aggressive horse and me (an idiot who tries to help)!
 
What happened to the OPs dog in the end? I actually disagree that the dog in question is likely to attack humans/children etc. Our family dog when was very very little (my parents had him before i was born) was a very aggressive dog. He was a GSD x that my parents rescued, he was GSD in size and looks but was black with a white ruff and resembled a wolf in some ways. He was NOT good at all with other dogs (well male dogs, most remale dogs were ok) and it was before the days when people sued for their dogs being attacked or you were made to have your dogs PTS. This dogs though never EVER once showed aggression to me or my sisters when we were babies crawling and generally being annoying! He'd grumble and walk away that was the worst he did. He though HAD gone for other people - the likes of bin men, postmen etc. Obviously that is appalling behaviour but this was back in the late 70's 80's when it was sort of 'normal' in some ways - dogs fought occasionally!

He though was always walked on a lead and was always controlled when out and he was handled firmly. I still would hope something good be done with this GSD to help her, she sounds very overprotective and it seems she needs to learn that she needs to take a back seat as far as the position of leader of the pack is concerned.
 
Can I just say please keep posting? this is really interesting and informative. I have never been in this position, would be totally stuck if I ended up with dogs like yours. I have staffies (and always have done) so am terrier focused. Can add absolutely nothing to the thread except to say I applaud your efforts and please keep updating..!
 
ladyt25 said:
What happened to the OPs dog in the end? I actually disagree that the dog in question is likely to attack humans/children etc. Our family dog when was very very little (my parents had him before i was born) was a very aggressive dog. He was a GSD x that my parents rescued, he was GSD in size and looks but was black with a white ruff and resembled a wolf in some ways. He was NOT good at all with other dogs (well male dogs, most remale dogs were ok) and it was before the days when people sued for their dogs being attacked or you were made to have your dogs PTS. This dogs though never EVER once showed aggression to me or my sisters when we were babies crawling and generally being annoying! He'd grumble and walk away that was the worst he did. He though HAD gone for other people - the likes of bin men, postmen etc. Obviously that is appalling behaviour but this was back in the late 70's 80's when it was sort of 'normal' in some ways - dogs fought occasionally!

He though was always walked on a lead and was always controlled when out and he was handled firmly. I still would hope something good be done with this GSD to help her, she sounds very overprotective and it seems she needs to learn that she needs to take a back seat as far as the position of leader of the pack is concerned.
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I do agree with you up to a point, dog-aggressive dogs, a lot of the time are acting in misplaced defence of humans or because of the human's defensive behaviour/vibes, wittingly or unwittingly...I know some dog-aggressive dogs who are super with humans of all ages and I don't think it is a 'matter of time' before they start acting this way with people, for all dog-aggressive dogs.

However a good point has been made in terms of what happens when the OP is out with her young child and is struggling with an arsey dog, or what happens if the target dog is behind held by a child or there is a child standing in the way.
 
CaveCanem said:
I do agree with you up to a point, dog-aggressive dogs, a lot of the time are acting in misplaced defence of humans or because of the human's defensive behaviour/vibes, wittingly or unwittingly...I know some dog-aggressive dogs who are super with humans of all ages and I don't think it is a 'matter of time' before they start acting this way with people, for all dog-aggressive dogs.

However a good point has been made in terms of what happens when the OP is out with her young child and is struggling with an arsey dog, or what happens if the target dog is behind held by a child or there is a child standing in the way.
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I see your point CC and agree with you in principle, but with a dog that displays agression towards other dogs, who can say that the agression will not be displayed towards people, specifically babies and young children, due to unforseen circumtances. How many times do you hear owners saying "he/she has never bitten anyone before, he/she loves kids, my lot used to climb all over him/her?" after their child has been mauled. I just would not trust a dog, like the OPs, around young children/babies who can make high pitch cries like a small animal and when learning to walk can toddle all over the place and fall. Babies can confuse dogs and with a dog with agression/dominence issues the mix could be fatal. I'm in no way an expert and its just a gut feeling but it would concern me having the OPs dog around young children/babies.:)
 
Well I would never allow a kid to crawl around over a dog anyway or be left alone with young kids anyway....especially not babies because as you say, certain noises and behaviours can and has in the past triggered something primeval in the dog....would like to think other people would think the same way and I am sure we all grew up with dogs like that and came away unscathed, but doesn't mean in hindsight that it was the wisest thing to do!
 
The sort of work I had in mind was one to one ,probably night work,he would`nt see other dogs,mostly visit checks on properties etc;absolutely ideal in my opinion. All he`s got to do is not attack his handler and be alert really!
 
^^^ agree totally.

i have a friend who used to specialise in rehoming aggressive dogs to yards that needed protection. sometimes it wasnt necessarily what i agree with, having potentially dangerous dogs who could only be approached with a handling noose, but they served a purpose and i suppose lived quite happy lives albeit on the end of a long chain.
 
I would rather PTS than chain up a dog like the one Chris appears to have. It makes a territorial or insecure dog even worse, imagine being so on your nerves, so sensitive and having physically nowhere to run or not being able to reach his target, so in his head, making him feel in more danger.
It would put immense further stress and pressure on the dog.
You know the way we say horses get their 'brains blown?' it happens with dogs too and it is just horrible. Just my opinion.
 
I've followed this now declining thread with real interest.

All too often, when we see a dog which is aggressive, it's offered up for protection work, and equally, all too often, it is totally unsuitable.

Just because a dog will attack a human doesn't necessarily mean that it's suitable. The dog which sees attack as the best form of defence, needs to learn a few lessons. Depending upon the age of the dog, and how ingrained the fear is, then these lessons can and all too often, will fail.

It's generally been my experience, that the dog which wants to fight other dogs, tends to be spineless, and the dog which wants to kill all two legged adversaries, tends to be soft with other dogs.

There can be no doubt that the puppy which doesn't have the opportunity to assimilate itself, with in a pack, will all to often be the dog which is needlessly aggressive.

Chris J, you suggested that you may be an idiot. You are anything, but that. Despite your laudable, and very best efforts, I suspect that the time will arrive when you give up.

I would also tell you this. Despite the odd dog which you may have met, which is the friend of everyone, until the buttons are pressed, I have never had a hard dog who would tolerate the approach of someone, whilst he was on a lead. Off the lead is a different matter, and perhaps that's what you should concentrate on. The LEAD is responsible for so many dogs failing to "think". Lack of physical contact, can work wonders. Many dogs used for protection work, are so much better off the lead, than on it. It gives them a different dimension, trust me.

A fascinating thread, and it's made me think!

Alec.
 
I do think perhaps that Chris's dog is past that stage, (off lead) with the best will in the world. And even with a muzzle, I doubt I personally would want to take the chance with other people.
Unless everyone on the field was dressed in the fully padded suits seen in ring sport, perhaps!

I can't say it is my experience that protection dogs are worse on lead than off - I would expect any good dog in sport or in service, when on the lead, to be walking to heel and paying attention to the handler, waiting for a command. They must work equally as well on lead as off.
Tracking/scent work is the only discipline where the handler can have little or no influence, vocal or physical - yet often, they are still attached to a line.
As mentioned, I see that more in certain breeds than in others.

Maybe we are talking at cross purposes, I am talking about a dog that can either compete in Schutzhund or one of the equivalent sports, or a police or other service dog.

For these jobs, overly aggressive or nervous dogs will never excel, and while they are of course out there, they will never be be happy in their work, so why do it to them?
 
I do train off leash with a couple of strangers in a field, it is interesting. He tends to charge at the stranger, usually jumping up. He is muzzled of course. Although this is OK with people, using a stooge dog in this way would be most unfair on the stooge. He is generally less reactive when not confined but using a lunge line outside in this way will only end up with him running to the limit and then being stopped by me on the end of a long leash.
 
Chris J,

A hundred questions, perhaps more!!

Is the dog kennelled, or does he live in the house?

Assuming that he lives indoors, and if he were let into a room, containing a seated visitor, perhaps watching the telly, and IMPORTANTLY, in advance of you, then what would he be likely to do? What is his reaction to strangers, when he doesn't have your support? (that's really all part of the same question).

Does the dog "know" anyone else, other than you, and how is he with them?

Do you think that your dog respects you, or any others?

If your dog's intended victim, were to turn his back, and completely ignore the dog, then what do you think your dog's reaction would be?

If within a contained, but reasonably spacious environment, your dog was loose, with a stationary, and non-threatening "criminal", and you were to walk away, then what would your dog do? Would he press home an attack, or would he want to be with you, and leave his target?

Turning ones back on a determined attack, isn't that easy, but if the "criminal" were to do just that, and completely ignore the dog, then what do you think would be the dogs reaction to that?

You've probably mentioned the dog's age, I would have missed it, but how old is he?

When you are in a one-2-one situation, how does the dog react to correction?

Where abouts are you, geographically?

Stooge dogs should never be put at risk, but you're already aware of that.

I hate muzzles. All those dogs which need them, very quickly learn, that the muzzle becomes a mute support. During a work, or training programme, if you need a muzzle, then you're nocking your head against a brick wall. The dog needs to learn that he "mustn't" bite. Teaching him, with a muzzle, that he "can't", generally makes matters worse, I've found.

It may well be that I have no answers for you, but you've certainly persevered, and I applaud that.

Alec.
 
Alec - I don't mean to patronise you, but have you ever dealt with or seen a 'lit up' Belgian or Dutch or even some lines of German, shepherd? They really are not like other dogs.
If yes, I'll shut up and put the egg box away again :o

Chris - has he actually done work with a helper in a bite suit? Or not safe/wise to get to that stage?
 
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