Aggressive dog - to rehome or pts?

Very interesting thread

Until recently we had two GSDs and a JRT. Sadly Sly was PTS at the age of 6 due to a long standing skin allergy that got too much for him despite the time and in excess of two thousand pounds trying to put things right.

Just wanted to say that Sly attacked other dogs whenever he got the opportunity, one occasion resulting in quite a hefty vets bill for us when he took exception to a JRT we came across on one of our walks. Walks were a nightmare as I never dared let him loose and although we considered muzzling him we could never quite bring ourselves to do it.
I am convinced he attacked through fear as he was very much the underdog at home and very wary of our other (younger) GSD.
 
Sorry to say but I think that PTS is the only answer. I really understand how much you care for your dog but I dont think re-homing is the answer and how often do we hear owners say their dogs are good with kids and the next thing is that a child is bitten or worse. I love dogs but think you have got to be realistic.
 
Just been reading through this thread, scanning really due to the time of night :o .

Its such a sad case, I honestly don't know what I would do .

Although there is hope when it comes to dog aggressive dogs .

Take my own dog Tikka, She would go for another dog, no matter how big or small, but with help from Bodo (CC's GSD) she has become alot better, I still to this day don't know what causes it, I doubt its from me as I am as laid back as they come, what my own theory is that .... its possibly due to where she came from and that being from a rescue centre, where she possibly shared kennels with a few dogs, Her and bodo get on not too bad, they both give as good as they get, but its mainly play now, whereas first meet it was BARRRRK BARRRKKK I'M GOING TO KILL YOU IF YOU COME NEAR ME ! :p

Just wanted to say there is hope, but it really depends on the circumstances .
 
Provided this dog would bond with another handler he would do the job of one on one security/protection dog well.The vast majority of these dogs are not trained beyond looking the part on a lead,and are not all singing all dancing schutz trained at all, AIDogs for instance trains up and sells such dogs for anything from £1500,riiculous as it may seem There is always a job for a dog with a good bite.
Probably got a great life ahead doing work,just not your average civilian dog .
 
I'm going to let you in on a secret about some security firms and the way they treat their dogs. This is a first hand account of what I saw in my youth at a vacated building.

I had decided to go into this large derelict mansion one evening with some friends confident that I would be able to out manoeuvre the security firm and the dogs should the need arise. During the time we spent on the premises the dogs alerted their handlers to our presence on 3 separate occasions, we were not found by the security personnel and the 2 dogs were given a thorough beating the third time they got the security people out of the caravan. Both the dogs and handlers were poorly trained, the 2 dogs had very poor recall and although the run out was indeed aggressive could be easily distracted from the task in hand and a bite avoided by the intruder (me), I knew this ahead of time which is why I accepted the dare in the first place. Unless the mentality of your average security guard has changed in the last 15 years I think it is very unkind to put any dog into their care, police handlers are different and they now use clicker and reward based training.

In order to train aggression in dogs, the aggression must be thought through, I think someone made the point that you need to see a "lit up" belgian, this is a very good term since when they are in that very hyped state, there is no learning going on, this dog is so hyped just being outside very little learning is taking place. I am giving him one last honest go with one of the countries leading behavioural trainers but even he said that in is 20 years experience he has never seen such a reactive dog.

I haven't either but then again I have never seen a dog whose puppy flooding party was a fighting dog den (before this one anyway). I think each dog comes into our lives to teach us a different lesson, the lesson that I have learnt from this one is humility, there is a saying "If you have 3 dog trainers in a room, the one thing they will all agree on is why the other 2 are wrong", 2 years ago I would have fitted this description perfectly, now I listen and only actually offer my opinion when asked since this is the only way to rid the dog world of its arrogance, on this journey with my dog I have learnt much and heard many explanations of why certain techniques work, it is absolutely amazing the "positive" spins that people put on flooding. I have heard them all from more trainers than I care to name and some charge an awful lot of money for their services, none of them got the chance to flood this dog. I have unintentionally done it on 3 separate occasions in the car when I got lost, take it from me it doesn't work.
 
Chris J said:
I think each dog comes into our lives to teach us a different lesson, the lesson that I have learnt from this one is humility, there is a saying "If you have 3 dog trainers in a room, the one thing they will all agree on is why the other 2 are wrong", 2 years ago I would have fitted this description perfectly, now I listen and only actually offer my opinion when asked since this is the only way to rid the dog world of its arrogance, on this journey with my dog I have learnt much and heard many explanations of why certain techniques work
Click to expand...

One of the most important posts I have ever read on here, no two dogs are the same and saying 'X always works' 'Y never works' 'If you do Z then you are a crap trainer' (as I have done myself) solves absolutely nothing, and my own dog, even if we never get any further than where we are now, he has been an amazing teacher and the biggest eye opener and he is certainly not 'difficult' compared to some I have come into contact since.

Best of luck with the boy, would love an update down the line.
And for the OP to come back!
 
If you chose to keep her alive then I would most definitely have her muzzled at all times when outside the house. Such a sad tale though but sometimes it is for best to let them go :(
 
CaveCanem said:
One of the most important posts I have ever read on here, no two dogs are the same and saying 'X always works' 'Y never works' 'If you do Z then you are a crap trainer' (as I have done myself) solves absolutely nothing, and my own dog, even if we never get any further than where we are now, he has been an amazing teacher and the biggest eye opener and he is certainly not 'difficult' compared to some I have come into contact since.

Best of luck with the boy, would love an update down the line.
And for the OP to come back!
Click to expand...

It sounds to me like you have been on a similar journey yourself. There is a well known saying "Wisdom begins with the words I don't know". Your tone throughout this thread in all your posts has been non judgemental and compassionate. I respect that, I am going to give him another couple of months and see if there is any improvement. I am trying a technique called CAT (constructive aggression training) from the US with one of the UK's leading behaviourists in the field, if there is no improvement, I will speak to the vet. Many may think of me as cold hearted or cruel and they are welcome to, to date 2 people he knows and likes have said to me "I'll take him for a week if you need a break", both of them only lasted 3 days and by that I mean tears and saying I can't cope with him. I have to date lasted 397 days everyone has a limit, me included.

It is so difficult hearing a dog freak out and vocalise stress on such a regular basis. This is a dog that has some happiness in his life but one who which being alive is also stressful to the point of absolute terror. I believe that nearly all aggression is fear based, try to imagine living your life in absolute fear wrecked with anxiety to the point you don't even know you are anxious and piling on more stress just to be alive. For much of my life I lived like that (I did conquer it) and it is painful. Dogs are emotional animals just like us and they do feel emotional pain, in my opinion. At the same time this dog actually poses a danger to strangers, he is a huge responsibility.
 
Chris J said:
It sounds to me like you have been on a similar journey yourself. There is a well known saying "Wisdom begins with the words I don't know". Your tone throughout this thread in all your posts has been non judgemental and compassionate. I respect that, I am going to give him another couple of months and see if there is any improvement. I am trying a technique called CAT (constructive aggression training) from the US with one of the UK's leading behaviourists in the field, if there is no improvement, I will speak to the vet. Many may think of me as cold hearted or cruel and they are welcome to, to date 2 people he knows and likes have said to me "I'll take him for a week if you need a break", both of them only lasted 3 days and by that I mean tears and saying I can't cope with him. I have to date lasted 397 days everyone has a limit, me included.

It is so difficult hearing a dog freak out and vocalise stress on such a regular basis. This is a dog that has some happiness in his life but one who which being alive is also stressful to the point of absolute terror. I believe that nearly all aggression is fear based, try to imagine living your life in absolute fear wrecked with anxiety to the point you don't even know you are anxious and piling on more stress just to be alive. For much of my life I lived like that (I did conquer it) and it is painful. Dogs are emotional animals just like us and they do feel emotional pain, in my opinion. At the same time this dog actually poses a danger to strangers, he is a huge responsibility.
Click to expand...

Quoted you again so more people read this and realise that there are dogs out there like yours, that can't be fixed with a clicker any more than they can be fixed with compulsion, and because a lot of people would not interpret your dogs (and other dogs') issues like you have.

Another sweeping statement here, but if anybody were to call you cruel or cold for ending his suffering, then they would be...wrong...in my opinion.


I would be very interested to find out how the CAT works for your dog.
Just done a bit of reading at the University of Google and it sounds very interesting.
 
Thank your for your enlightened reply CaveCanem. I understand why people do say things like "I had this dog and I did that and now he/she is fine". I work ad an animal rescue centre and all the volunteers like to say how wonderful they are with dogs, how they all like them and such and such dog never growls at them. I have learnt that all dogs are different and actually being good with dogs starts with asking myself the question "what am I doing wrong?" and constantly reflecting on my own behaviour both with the people I interact with and the dogs too.

In the last month alone I have had 3 dogs with serious aggression issues towards me and other people, the worst was re-homed last week and when I had finished working with her she would let any man stroke her and I was able to get sleep from her eyes and inspect her teeth all without any fear of being bitten.

I practise a counselling technique known as "Active Listening", it is amazing what people will tell them if you let them or to put it another way if you give someone enough rope they will hang themselves. During my last observation of a dog class (which I would add was conducted very well and I saw some very well trained dogs) I got talking about reactive/aggressive dogs with the head trainer. In a growl class she would remove the owner if the dog was getting aggressive and sometimes this would mean that 4 dogs would be on posts in each corner of the arena until they calmed down. I asked her if it worked and she said it did, she then asked me why it worked (or course I knew but I'll come to that later), I replied "I don't know, I'm still learning", I removed the reward for the behaviour, the dog was seeing owner presence as a reward.

I don't dispute that the technique works in an arena but it is very unlikely to produce a reliable behaviour change, what is actually going on is called "flooding". She learned nothing from me and I learned something from her (all be it her failings with modern psychology).

I compared her approach with that of another behaviourist I work with and on our first meeting to discuss my dogs behaviour, he left having learned 2 techniques from me one to deal with destructive chewing of shoes in the house and the other to improve house training with adult dogs. I also learned from him.

This is what self improvement is all about, remember learning stops the moment we start telling people how much we know and why they are wrong. Another thing I have worked out is why it is so important to actually see the dog in question before offering wonderful advice. Of course offering advice about training a dog to sit for a treat or training the down/stay is pretty generic but even then I can show you a video of a Staff cross that this technique doesn't work for and this week I have seen for the first time a springer spaniel that isn't interested in food (give yourself a poke you are not dreaming) of course someone will probably tell me this is the norm but in my own experience to date all the springers I have seen have been gutses. The bad news this dog pulls like a train on leash, the good news it loves toys and has a solid temperament.
 
I am afraid that last week I euthanased my dog, it was the hardest thing I have ever done. It was done kindly without a struggle, with compassion and dignity. I now spend several hours a day crying, I know I have done the right thing but it doesn't make it easy. Next week I'll scatter his ashes in some of his favourite places and I'll always miss the cheeky mischievous side of his personality, the side that very few people got to see.
 
So sorry to read this :(. My thoughts go out to you as you gave your dog every chance from what I gather from here.

Remember him fondly and treasure the good times.
 
I'm sorry you lost your dog :( I think it was the right thing for you to do under the circumstances.


Chris J said:
In a growl class she would remove the owner if the dog was getting aggressive and sometimes this would mean that 4 dogs would be on posts in each corner of the arena until they calmed down. I asked her if it worked and she said it did, she then asked me why it worked (or course I knew but I'll come to that later), I replied "I don't know, I'm still learning", I removed the reward for the behaviour, the dog was seeing owner presence as a reward.

I don't dispute that the technique works in an arena but it is very unlikely to produce a reliable behaviour change, what is actually going on is called "flooding". She learned nothing from me and I learned something from her (all be it her failings with modern psychology).
Click to expand...

If you don't mind me asking, could you explain to me why that is flooding? I can see why the puppy starting in a fight environment would be flooding.

I am studying horse behaviour and training, so although not canine, I am interested in the theories and practical applications.
 
Chris J said:
I am afraid that last week I euthanased my dog, it was the hardest thing I have ever done. It was done kindly without a struggle, with compassion and dignity. I now spend several hours a day crying, I know I have done the right thing but it doesn't make it easy. Next week I'll scatter his ashes in some of his favourite places and I'll always miss the cheeky mischievous side of his personality, the side that very few people got to see.
Click to expand...

So sorry to hear this. RIP Pup.
 
I have sat down and read the whole of this thread and what comes through is a caring person who has gone to the back of beyond for answers. There was never an answer for this poor dog and you have done the right thing in deciding to pts.

Please dont see this as a failure on your part because no one could have done more just take the positives from this relationship and use them to good affect with a new dog.

Good luck.
 
You've done the last, best thing you could have done with a dog like him. Most people will never have had a dog in their life like this, and would never be in a position to criticise.
And don't take this the wrong way, but I have a feeling that when you have have had a chance to take stock, you will feel an overwhelming sense of relief, but not in a selfish way, relief for the dog. The pressure in his head is gone from him now, he is at peace x
 
No-one with a brain would think of it as a failiure or an injustice. You clearly know a lot more than some of us can hope to and you send out a very important message to the rest of us.
RIP doggy.
 
As I see it you have done the best possible thing for the dog. The hardest decision of all, and the easy way out would have been to rehome him, but he didn't deserve that. RIP fella.
 
Very sad thread and you did do the hardest thing there is to do. But for the sake of other dogs and owners too and your own peace of mind, it was without a doubt right.
I had an aggressive GSD and he would bite guests or anyone who entered his domain unannounced. I had some horrible times with him. We kept him , but at every door knock or visit he had to be either muzzled or shut out the back of the house. I tried corrective training but he never changed. He was a rescue dog and 3 yrs old when I got him. His saving grace was that he was safe out on a walk and he would actively shun away from people.

He was pts when his hips deteriorated beyond medication at 11 years old. Do you know when I then got a Swedish Vallhund pup - I could see the ease of having a 'normal' dog - all that anxiety that we as a family had become so accustomed to from the GSD was gone. I loved the dog, but I couldn't go through that again. Maybe that is selfish of me.
I now have a similar situation with a horse who is aggressive and a danger.....he may ultimately have to be pts ;-( I think they see me coming.
 
Thank you all for your kind words.

I have been looking after a friends dog for the last couple of weeks which has been very nice for me to restore some confidence in myself. I would like to share with you all a good example of how judgemental people can be with this sort of thing, someone who I used to call a friend had been telling people who I know that he thought what I had done was wrong, in his life he has owned a total of zero dogs and has trained a total of zero dogs and yet he felt able to pass judgement on my abilities with training dogs. I felt so hurt when I found this out, needless to say right now I no longer consider him a friend.

Jake who is a black cocker spaniel initially snarled at me when I met him, that was two weeks ago, he has spent the last two weeks following me around off leash and being a very good friend, his tail never stops and apart from flushing up anything that moves when told "free" is perfect, his recall from flushing is pretty good. Though he's just not a dog to let off leash in a conservation area. He has been wonderful company though and it is nice for me to experience dog ownership as it should be.

Spaniels are not a breed that I usually form close bonds with but this little chap is a bit different, maybe it's because he is a true working dog, on leash he pulls a bit, it's still a bit raw for me to consider getting another dog of my own but looking after Jake has been a nice reminder of what I missed over the last eighteen months.

Thank you all once again for your support and kindness.

Chris
 
So glad you have posted again and Im sorry over your friends reaction and can imagine how hurtful it must have been to have heard that.

You can choose your friends and if it was me they would be off my Xmas card list you are better off without them.

After what you have been through I agree with you that it is probabley too early to think of having another dog but glad to hear you are keeping your hand in.

Good luck to you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top