Aggressive dog - update

Clarkie

Clarkie

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Have been to vets this morning and they have referred dog to behaviourist specialising in aggression. Going to call her now. The decision is still not made and he is wearing a muzzle in the meantime, but I am going to see what this person says.
 
Although I'm not that hopeful, fear aggression is usually the most difficult behaviour to change and it is not made easier of that, as you said in the other thread, you haven't been able to always figure out what it is that triggers him (except as with your neighbour, being drunk) but who knows, maybe there is something that could be done.

Fingers crossed that the behaviourist can help your dog.
 
Out of interest, what behaviourist have you been referred to? Sarah Heath in Chester is a behavioural medicine specialist who teaches us at uni (I think she does some of the other vet schools too), and she is VERY good. All the vets I've done placement with now refer people to her for everything behaviour related.
 
I am going to see Cesar in March, Prose.

Fingers crossed for you and your boy Clarkie - I told you how I felt on the other thread but I appreciate how desperate you are to turn him around.
 
The Cesar idea is a very good one! At least if you do something you know you've tried and, if it fails then you know there is/was nothing more you can do.

I feel for you - have never had to be in the this position and if I was I would find it very hard. A friend of mine had to have her two dogs put down several years ago as they killed a farmer's sheep (the vet had to take bowel content samples from them) they were lovely dogs, a golden retriever and a JR but the decision was made. Think I found it more upsetting than my friend really!
 
I too gave my views on the other thread, but I do hope the behaviourist helps, its got to be worth approaching Cesar to see if they are looking for "cases".
CC, I'm going to see him in March too, but presume you are going to a NI venue.
 
Thanks to all again for the support. I just feel like I have to try once more with him, and I will be extra extra careful. He now wears a muzzle on leaving the house until he comes back in, and I have brought his crate out of storage so that if there's a knock on the door he is to go straight in it - taking no chances.
feeling a bit more optimistic than last night, but I'm not going around with rose tinted glasses on either.
 
Glad you're feeling more optimistic. I think it can be manageable but it isn't easy and, at the end of the day if neither of you are enjoying your lives then the kindest thing may be to PTS but at least you know you tried.

Good luck!
 
Can I ask what breed your dog is? As you probably know, some breeds tend more to fear agression than others, so might be helpful to understand his breeding.

I've taken on a few rescues in my time and I have to say that that one looked like she was going to start out life as a proper little agressive whatsits but we turned her around pretty quickly - tho she was a lot younger than your 5yo.

We've in fact just taken on another lad and he's lovely except when you tell him to do something that he doesn't want to do and then to start with he tried agression and now he's worked out that doesn't work and can get into fear agression if you don't work hard at it. However, he too is coming around in leaps and bounds.

So, just because a dog has tried to bite/ has bitten, I wouldn't necessarily say this means pts, I think you have to look at all the circumstances and the chances of rehabing the dog. It is a bit worrying that your dog has been with you for a bit now and still hasn't come around and what I'm about to say may therefore sound harsh, but do you really think it's the dog with a screw loose or do you think there's a chance you haven't got something right in your training?

If you really think he's got a screw loose then fair enough, pts, but if you think it could be you not getting something right, however much you've tried, then it is worth seeking alternative help. Seeing Cesar sounds like a good option. If you can't get hold of him, though, you're welcome to pm me.... I've been through similar with dogs before that are rehome/ rehab cases and may be able to offer some help (not saying I'm Cesar or anything but ....)?
 
Anyone who is thinking of going to see Cesar Millan should first check out the website www.dogwelfarecampaign.org and ask themselves why so many different dog charities and organisations have got together to release a joint statement advising against using his methods. (Bearing in mind how much the RSPCA and the Kennel Club hate each other at the moment, anything that got them to issue a joint statement has got to be of major importance to dog welfare).

The website also gives some very good (if slightly technical) advice on fear aggression.
 
Interesting site.

To quote from the site

"Aversive training techniques, which have been seen to be used by Cesar Millan, are based on the principle of applying an unpleasant stimulus to inhibit behaviour. This kind of training technique can include the use of prong collars, electric shock collars, restricting dogs′ air supply using nooses/leads or pinning them to the ground, which can cause pain and distress."

Personally, I do not agree with the use of prong collars/ electrish shock collars or other such gadgetery either, for many reasons but the main one being that I'm not convinced that the dog makes the association between the pain these things cause and what you are trying to teach him.

However, personally, if I feel it is appropriate, I will do what I call "scruffing" a dog, which is grabbing it by the scruff and then laying it down to the ground in a submissive fashion. I think this is very different to the other items listed because it is much closer to what one dog would do to another in the wild. I'm all for treat training with dogs, don't get me wrong, but there are some things that treats will not help with.

For example, if you take on a dog that already has dominance issues, I'm sorry but if the dog growls or snapps at you for taking it's bone/ you asking it to move of the sofa/ whatever, then that sort of behaviour must be dealt with before it escalates and simple treat training ain't gonna cut it. Of course ideally you set things up so you don't have to go there and certainally I would not expect to have to use adverse training methods with a dog I've had since a puppy but taking on a hard case is a little different, I fear.

that said, of course you will always need to distinguish between true agression and fear agression, which I believe should be treated very differently. Fear aggression is actually much harder to deal with, I think, and can take some time for the dog to both trust and respect you. However, I wouldn't necessarily feel that scruffing a fear aggressive dog must always always be ruled out, but I certainaly wouldn't recommend that most average pet owners try it, as it's a very fine line between how much pressure you put on a dog with it and I do think you absolutely must back off when the dog has submitted, so if you miss that, you're in for trouble!.
 
Actually, pinch collars, placed/used/timed correctly, mimic how a bitch would reprimand a puppy.

Used under supervision/correctly and on the 'right' dog, I believe they do have a place and I have used one myself.

Yeah, they look horrible. But I would rather give my dog a
light touch on a secondary collar (they should never be used as a main collar) rather than all the people I see with their dogs in upside-down choke chains and slip leads, eyes bulging, necks braced, straining and with the owners helpless as the dog does not know the difference between a tight lead and a slack one, so how can you use it as a training aid at all?

I would NOT use one on the OP's dog. I do not believe they should be used on small/thin skinned dogs and they are not for correcting any old issue.

I would NOT scruff the OP's dog.

Puddleshark, personally I have seen that website before several times, and I am still going to see him
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My main bugbear is that a lot of people now think they can scruff any old dog - scruffing the wrong dog is dangerous and can lead to a whole world of new problems.
 
I know of people who have used pinch or electric collars with success. These have without exception been experienced dog owners/trainers,I do not think they should be used by the pet owner without supervision. Scruffing a dog can work, but only on the right dog, and certainly would not suggest it for fear aggression. I agree that fear aggression is worse than just normal aggression.
I have never seen Cesars training methods, although have looked at that site, I am going to see him in March with a totally open mind.
 
Sorry if I came over as high-handed - I really am in no position to cast nasturtiums on anyone's training methods as I own possibly the worst behaved dog in Dorset... I just worry when people think that a celebrity dog trainer can cure nervous agression by the simple laying-on of hands. These problems are just way, way too complex.

I agree entirely with Kelpie on the subject of aversive training gadgets - if the dog does not associate the pain/discomfort you are afflicting with the behaviour you are trying to eradicate then you are merely abusing the dog. There may be a place for these gadgets in the hands of professionals, possibly, but I personally would never employ a trainer that used them. But that's just me being a softie.
 
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