aggressive pony

[bonny]

does anybody know of any ponies that are seriously grumpy and what if anything helped. My daughter has an a pony who she loves dearly but hes grumpy to the point of being aggressive. I am hoping to find a loan home for him but its hard to imagine anyone wanting him although the plus side is hes great to ride and very talented.

 

[AmyMay]

In what way is he grump - what does he do?

 

[bonny]

he bites esp in the stable but will charge, ears back when in field. Once hes caught and in a head collar or bridle hes fine but you still have to be careful when tacking up, doing rugs etc. Generally he dosen't kick but isn't trustworthy in the stable.

 

[_April_]

How big is he? Has he always been grumpy?

I think an experienced adult rider/handler would be best. Some will just take advantage of a child (April being one of them!) but there are loads of reason why he might be acting this way and you need to eliminate them one by one to see of there is a root cause for his behaviour.
eg. Pain - back, teeth, lameness. Does his tack and rugs fit or are they rubbing him somewhere. Then the work he is doing - is he overschooled and bored etc. Then his turnout - is he getting enough? April is terrible if she can't get out to her field on bad weather days.
There are so many different areas that you need to look at. Once you have removed any possible causes you can work on his behaviour although with April it was more patience and time.

PM me if you want. We have been there and beaten it xx

 

[bonny]

April, thanks for the reply - hes 14.2 and is better with children than with adults, particulary men. I have found out quite a bit about his past and know that he was in a riding school at 4 where he was very difficult and has since been in several big livery yards where different people have tried to sort out the aggression. I don't know if there is an answer now, his behaviour seems very ingrained. THe problem now is that ny daughter is outgrowing him and I'm worried about his future if he went elsewhere.

 

[ladyt25]

We had a 12hh pony who was fine with adults (just moody) but hated small children (i think was the only thing he could bully). Is making me giggle remembering when we got him for my sister who was 7, she went to catch him - a tricky thing in itself - but he just charged at her teeth bared and she ran screaming across the field (she's 26 now, i don't think she's mentally scarred!) Still, a tad dangerous me thinks. He was fine though as soon as tracked up and being ridden so maybe you can loan to a knowledgeable home where the adult would handle/catch/ groom said pony. I think if they are good when saddled and people are aware of the temperament issues someone would be willing to take him on loan.

 

[_April_]

April is over 20 so there's definitely still hope! They can change.

Poor lad I feel sorry for him. Yes I bet people have tried to 'sort him out' and that has probably made him even more defensive and suspicious of people.
Can you get someone to loan him on your yard where you can keep an eye on him? If you are upfront about his issues you will find someone especially if he is good to ride. Lovely to hear you just want to loan him out instead of selling him. I would be worried incase his behaviour escalated and he was passed on.
I only loan april but as she is seriously wonderful to ride I was willing to put in a bit of effort to get over her grumpiness and she is a sweetheart now.

 

[bonny]

can you tell me more about april and her story ?? thanks

 

[_April_]

course

. I have just finished and it is LONG!!

April is a 14.2, WBxTB. She is about 21 now.

I know all her old owners to some degree.
She was bought as 5 by a PC friend of mine, though I didn't know her at that time. She was lovely schooled and looked after. She was naturally quite grumpy and I believe bit occasionally. When she was outgrown she was sold to a dealer.
She was then sold to my YO's sister for her 14 year old daughter. I think she was just over horsed and April became very naughty although i don't know the details. I do know that she had very limited turnout and I think this resulted in her being difficult to catch...

So my YO took her on to basically retire her and she had a chilled out field time for about 2 years. She has kicked about 3 people when caught and needed tied in the stable when changing rugs over etc. She is a lucky pony to have found such a patient and wonderful home!

In this time my own horse was PTS with grass sickness and I quit horses. I went back after a few years to visit my mum's horse and I started to ride April.
She was fully checked over by a vet prior to this and had her tack all checked and fitted and dentist etc etc

She was a NIGHTMARE, she swung at me in the field. I used to dread catching her.
I couldn't go in her stable unless she was tied up. I literally couldn't wash her tail, plait it or put a tail bandage on as she would threaten me. When ridden she napped, bucked and had a billion other tricks to put me off.
I have never had to think so fast in my life! I could see the potential though as she was lovely to ride once you got over the issues.

I would say that April was depressed if that is possible for a horse. I felt so sorry for her but gradually things started to change.

I avoided schooling her at all and we just went on hacks and tried to have fun. I had as much patience as possible and gave her loads of treats etc. Then once I knew her better I started jumping her and although she was very inexperienced she LOVED it.
She started coming down to me from the field and just looked so much happier.
Now I take her to loads of places, and I don't need to tie her up in the stable anymore and I can do anything with her. She adores praise and being spruced up for shows. She is also the biggest poser I have met and so competitive.
She just needed a firm hand and time to chill out and trust people again. April's owner is a wonderful handler of horses and I learnt a lot from her.

We have just found a nice balance of having fun rides but now when we school I can demand she works but she knows it's only like once a week so doesn't dread it anymore.

She is still very suspicious of strangers but if you get into her comfort zone she is a sweetheart

I hope that helps you. I wish I could put my finger on what we did but I think every horse is different and you need to trial and error and see what works best for you.
If April doesn't get turned out she can still be an old grump but it's just faces now so we ignore and laugh at her lol. Don't worry about curing him, just see if you can find a manageable situation.


Just for interest here is my before and after! I have never really told all this before on HHO or shown these pics but I hope it helps you. April is an extreme case but it shows that change can happen! xx

BEFORE - poor worried, miserable soul

AFTER - preened and posing

Plus there are loads in my signature of her gallivanting.

 

[Paigeous]

My mare gets grumpy when she's tacked up and has her rugs changed. She pulls faces, puts her ears flat back and tries to bite. I raise my voice to her and if that doesn't work, I either slap her on her chest or pinch her lip - since her mouth is what she's trying to bite me with, but I don't want to slap her mouth and make her head shy. When she's threatening to bite more than usual, I tie her up tight enough so that she can't reach, get on with what I'm doing and ignore her, then loosen her off when I'm done. Slowly she's learning that having tantrums doesn't work and she's getting a lot better. Threats are less frequent and sometimes her ears don't even twitch. She gets worse when she's in season - and bear in mind that even geldings get a little bit more uptight when they can tell that a mare is in season.
Grumpy ponies are usually pretty easy to deal with once you stop taking it personally - I took it personally for a while and it only escalated the problem - but now we're nearly sorted

 

[charlotte1]

Your pony sounds just like my horse. My vet is looking into a couple of possible causes for this behaviour and thinks she may have gastric ulcers which is causing her behaviour. She's booked into to have this checked out next week and will let you know if they find anything.

 

[bonny]

april, thanks very much for all that ! it sounds like april is lucky to have found a home with you, are you planning on keeping her forever. She sounds similar in some ways to our pony except that he is great to ride, I don't think I would have him if there were any issues with that as well !!

We have had him for 2 years now and my idea was just to NEVER shout at him or hit him as it has obviously been tried before and IMO probably made him worse. He has got better and we've got alot better at handling him but I don't see the problem ever going away. I can't help thinking there must be something else that would help but I am at a loss with what else we could try.
Is your pony at the bottom of the pecking order ? Ours is bullied by all horses and i think that has something to do with it ie he gets bullied and so bullies us. It's a theory i've got anyway but it dosen't help with the problem!!
Ideally i would like to put him on loan, i would never sell him as although hes getting on he still wins alot. but - I need someone who could cope with handling him and that i could trust to not hit him. Hes a lovely looking pony, gets comments on how nice he is wherever he goes (if only they knew!) I don't really want to just retire him as I think he would hate it and it seems a waste when he is such a good hunting/ competion pony.

 

[bonny]

thanks for your reply - I like the bit about it gets easier if you don't take it personally ! Trouble is we've spent along time trying to be nice to him whatever he does and its heartbreaking at times to see my daughter with him.

 

[Tia]

Argh! I know exactly how you feel having a horse who is highly predictable in such an awful way.

I have/had a very very aggressive filly on my yard. Never met anything like her before in all my time with horses. This horse is/was vicious, seriously so and she doesn't/didn't care who was in her way. She would plow you down and attack you with either teeth or hind feet or both. Seriously nasty young horse.

Anyway what I did, I had no option but to take her out of the field she was living in with her mother and a herd full of horses owned by liveries and some of my own horses - all these horses are lovely and very easy to do.

After a bit of trial and error, I ended up having to move her and her mother out of the field and into a paddock away from everyone else. Not ideal as the filly has never been weaned away from the mother, but the only thing I could do to stop this problem becoming a volatile situation.

The filly never improved. She was still very aggressive with me and anyone else who went near her field. She is a horse with a very long and thick mane reaching to well below her neckline. The mane was becoming horrendously unruly as owner never came to visit, so one day I decided enough was enough and I wanted to comb the mane out and plait it out of the way. I had a helper, I bitted the filly and had the helper hold her from outside the field. As I was doing combing out her mane (only a week or so ago), I twisted her forelock around her halter so that it didn't get in the way of my combing the mane. Well the filly loved it! She was sweet, well behaved blah blah, all of the things she had previously not been.

When I moved onto her forelock, I saw that it was so thick and the length was astonishing - it came down to below her nostrils. I had a bizarre thought that perhaps she was so aggressive/defensive because perhaps she couldn't see properly as the forelock was so thick. I decided to thin and shorten the forelock; so I gently pulled it so that the side bits were above her eyes and then I V'd it down the middle so she still looked like she had a long forelock. Well it friggin well worked! Or it appears that it has worked anyway. I know it's only early days, but she honestly seems to be so much more nice now. She hasn't lunged at me once. She hasn't had any problem with me coming into the field to cut the strings on their hay bale. She doesn't bother when I catch her up. She's just pleasant now. How long for? I don't know, but I feel quite positive about her and hope that she is over her bad behaviour.

Maybe just have a vet check that the pony can see properly? I know it sounds silly, but I am convinced this was the problem with the horse here. Best of luck - horrid horrid situation to be in.

 

[bonny]

great that you found the answer with your filly - if only it was always that easy !! I don't think it can be anything to do with his sight as hes been aggressive for years. What do you think about the problem with him being bullied by other horses ??
he is also a jumping pony, and a very good one so he can't have anything wrong with his sight or any physical problems.

 

[Tia]

If he is at the bottom of the pecking order then yes this could certainly have a bearing on why he is behaving like this. You have to continually instill that YOU are above him in the pecking order.

By the way; it wasn't easy finding the answer to this filly's problem. It took about 7 months of running the gauntlet a number of times a day.

 

[bonny]

sorry Tia, didn't mean to imply that you hadn't been through it with your filly, just that it was good that you found a reason for her behaviour
Short of hitting my pony or shouting how do you suggest we are above him in the pecking order ? hes an older pony so very fixed in his ways

 

[Skhosu]

My 14.2 was top of the pecking order, lunged over the door on bad days and tried to bite 99% of the time, I just ignored it, he was more warning than trying to actually get you. You had to be careful and lots of people said to smack him, I never did and he improved massively to the point we just got ears back. He was a superb pony though!

 

[Tia]

No I agree with TSH - I wouldn't hit the pony either. I would try to find things that he likes doing and would do lots of these things with him. I would make sure that ANY bad behaviour is not ignored and if necessary back him up every single time he does it. Try to give him a varied lifestyle; don't keep doing the same things over and over again with him. Would it be possible to have him move fields? I've found that by changing the order of a herd can often have a very positive effect on some horses who are at the bottom/top of the pecking order. Ideally you want him in a herd where he is somewhere in the middle, I'd say.

Out of interest do you give him edible treats? If you do, then I'd say, don't!

 

[bonny]

thanks for the reply
we have gone out of our way to give him a happy varied life, trouble is i think its the first time in his life that anyone has cared.
On the whole we do ignore his aggression, i don't really know what else to do. He is bottom of the pecking order with any other horses, i have never seen him be at all aggressive with any other horse.
we don't give him treats other than when catching him.
I think he knows that i have been talking about him as he was very scary tonight, first when i tried to bring him in, which i put down to him being hungry and then when i fed him. no graditude !!

 

[_April_]

I think you sound as though you are on the right track bonny.

in answer to your questions April isn't mine but her owners will keep her for life so that's a relief

She is in the middle of the pecking order. She is not only nicer to humans now but we have also noticed her being more pleasant to other horses.

She has been great for over a year and a half now. I agree with Tia though in that the changes can take a very long gradual time.

Don't get me wrong, I described all the things she tested me with when ridden but the great part was she tried them all once and when they didn't work she never tried them again. So it sounds worse than it was!
She is wonderfrul to ride so was well worth persevering with and now she is fab on the ground too so we are all very proud of her.

ETS - i would not advocate hitting him at all. Like the others I think you need to be assertive but not agressive.

 

[Tia]

Ah you do things differently from me. I never ever ignore aggression or bad behaviour - I always pick them up on it and try to deal with it immediately; in exactly the same way as I reward good behaviour immediately. In my book, no behaviour should ever be ignored.

I also never ever give edible treats; but if I was so inclined to give sweets, I'd never do it for catching a horse. Mine get a scratch or kisses on the muzzle (as this is truly their favourite treat of all

) when they do something good or come to me in the field.

It sounds like he hasn't full trust in you. You need to have him figure out that he can totally trust you, so if you deal with him in a horsey way, rather than a human way, you may have a bit of luck in trying to have him change his mind about you being a punching bag.

Good luck.

 

[Skhosu]

yes, mine loved the farrier, being clipped, having his teeth done, anything that isn't direct attention, he hated being groomed and had a good sense for who would treat him well, we didn't smother him and he seemed happy enough.

 

[bonny]

maybe this is good advice but how do we deal with him in a horsey way not a human way ??
also when you go to catch him in the field he charges, ears back and really does mean it. If you have food with you he will stop, grab the carrot or whatever and can be caught. if no food i think he would attack. Your advice to give a kiss on the muzzle would lead to a bitten face !!
I agree that he dosen't trust us despite our best efforts but i don't know what else to do except to try and ignore his grumpiness.

 

[Tia]

Errm......I didn't advise anyone to kiss their horses muzzles - I said I kiss MY horses muzzles and that MY horses love it.