Aggressive Youngster

AdorableAlice said:
Congratulations with the progress. No help to offer as Ted was certainly not aggressive, even at his most frightened he would not hurt me with anger or aggression.

Why do you keep these coloured horses entire ?
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I'm not 'keeping' them entire. They were bought as colts and are due to be gelded in the next couple of weeks - just need the vets to find time to come out and do two at the same time. Plus an exam of little un to see if his semi-undescended testicle could be persuaded to pop out for gelding. Some days he has two, other days just one.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Why would you want to chase a horse that cannot be handled all over, tied up and does not have the basic ground work in, around an arena and over jumps ?

I am finding this thread most odd.
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He is being handled now, and has tied up from the first week I had him - he just went a bit feral when turned out for the first time. (ETA - feral putting it mildly)

The loose work in the arena is to get him used to my voice cues ready for when I start long lining him over the next few months. I always teach voice aids loose so there is nothing to restrict them. It's also easier to teach calming downwards aids.
 
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EQUIDAE said:
He is being handled now, and has tied up from the first week I had him - he just went a bit feral when turned out for the first time. (ETA - feral putting it mildly)

The loose work in the arena is to get him used to my voice cues ready for when I start long lining him over the next few months. I always teach voice aids loose so there is nothing to restrict them. It's also easier to teach calming downwards aids.
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Oh, I see. I guess there are many ways of handling youngstock, nervous, feral, aggressive or whatever. I hope he goes on and gives you much to be proud of.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Oh, I see. I guess there are many ways of handling youngstock, nervous, feral, aggressive or whatever. I hope he goes on and gives you much to be proud of.
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Thanks. With daily handling he seems to be learning that people aren't terrible. He has a way to come of course - you still can't pat him as this terrifies him but he is starting to be a pleasure to be around. I actually quite like him now :)
 
EQUIDAE said:
Thanks. With daily handling he seems to be learning that people aren't terrible. He has a way to come of course - you still can't pat him as this terrifies him but he is starting to be a pleasure to be around. I actually quite like him now :)
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Don't pat him. Horses do not pat one another. Put your hand and leave it on, when he accepts the pressure on his skin, remove the hand and the pressure. Do this all over him and you will have a building block to work with. I was lucky because I found someone who was suitable to break my youngster. The horse could not have gone to a normal breaking yard and I could not do him myself, although I had done a lot of groundwork with him and I have another 4 year old that I did do myself

Even now, at 4 months broken and having won a baby dressage test, I have to be very measured and careful in how he is handled.
 
EQUIDAE said:
I'm not 'keeping' them entire. They were bought as colts and are due to be gelded in the next couple of weeks - just need the vets to find time to come out and do two at the same time. Plus an exam of little un to see if his semi-undescended testicle could be persuaded to pop out for gelding. Some days he has two, other days just one.
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if you can EVER on ANY day see 2, then they are both this side of the inguinal ring and he is ready to be castrated! there is no such thing as a semi undescended testical.....its either down or its not and no it cannot be persuaded to pop out if its truly retained!
 
Just an update (for myself more than anything). Woody is turning into a lovely chap - he's still wary but is becoming bolder and handles like my other horses now :)

The update is that on Weds the vet is coming for the mass gelding and all 3 are getting done at the same time. I've practiced 'injecting' him using an empty syringe and pinching the skin on his neck, so when the vet does it it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Wish us luck!
 
I didn't sleep much last night - kept having nightmares that he would refuse to be caught and I wouldn't be able to get him gelded. Turns out he had snapped his (field safe) headcollar and although we haven't practiced putting on the headcollar in the field he stood perfectly to be caught - with a little help from a juicy pear.

So the 3 of them are stabled tonight and are sweating their little socks off despite having bib clips. I'd bib clipped they were sweating in the field but it seems it's not enough off for in the stable.

A couple of head shots to make it less me rambling.

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Well he's done!

He didn't disgrace himself, and although nervy with the vet he was friendly with her and didn't try and kick. He is 14h and took twice the amount of sedation that the 15h boy took! But we got there :)

At 11am we had a minutes silence whilst the emasculators were clamped on his testicles... He has been passported as Lest We Forget :)
 
Seems to me you have a horse who's been pushed so much by humans that his fear has crossed the boundary between fight and flight, and instead of trying to escape he's jumping straight to the attack. I worked with a similar horse a couple of years ago, he was 3 but not gelded, and it stuck in my mind. My first inclination was to start work immediately, but I was recommended to turn him out for 6 months with older horses to mature and learn some respect from them the natural way. He didn't come into much contact with humans during that point, only when me or my partner went into the field to catch one of the others, rug them, check their water and come into the field to feed. He kept his distance, which was an improvement, as before he would have charged at us and gone straight in for the kick, which sounds like what yours is doing.

Your boy is still very young, he needs some time to be a youngster before he can settle down to work. I'd recommend giving him a bit of a break with an older horse, then maybe starting on simple things like walking up to him in the field, but keeping a distance of about 10 feet between the two of you. If he stays where he is then you back away from him, if he backs away then walk towards him, and if he charges you (scary as I know it is), get out of his way, then approach him again, and keep doing that until he learns that the only way to get the people to leave him alone is by not reacting to the situation.

At first with my youngster it seemed hopeless, I was in the field for hours dodging him, walking towards him again, and having to duck, but once he learns that the thing he afraid of will come in to his space, do nothing to harm or frighten him, and then walk out again, he'll feel no need to lash out or run away from it. It seems your boy is afraid of human contact after bad experiences in the past, and there is lots of good advice here for you, so good luck, and remember; don't give up on him!
 
DGD - we've had the breakthrough and he is a lovely boy now. I still don't trust him but he isn't trying to kill me any more. He was that bad that I couldn't do what you suggested - that was what I would normally have done but as soon as you went in the field he would charge you. We did over the gate first ;) he soon learned that I meant nice stuff when he saw the other two fawning all over me for treats.

My proud moment today what when he turned his neck round today and whuffled the vet. I think he genuinely wants to like people and be liked - he's still wary but so so much better than he was :)
 
I am so pleased to hear that, good on you for not giving up on him, I know a lot of people who would have stopped trying :) you seem like a very honest person and if you keep your arms open for him then he will turn out to be your very best friend.
It's great that he's realised how to behave, and as he learns to trust you more I'm sure you will learn to trust him, but I perfectly understand that after such an ordeal you would be wary around him.
Keep going, he'll be a wonderful boy one day!
 
Thank you :) I have been slated on here a bit for not getting a behaviourist in but the way I was doing it was working. Also I knew there was going to be no quick fixes...

I came very very close to having him put down - I've never seen anything like it. It has taken until today for me to be comfortable that he wasn't going to try and kill the vet.

I'm sure with time he will come round completely :)

When they say there's a reason why a horse is cheap - it's true ;)
 
Bit of an update - the gelding went well and both boys are healing well ano were turned out 48 hours later. Sadly Woody seems to have taken a backwards step and has gone a bit grumpy. He's not tried anything on but is making his feelings quite clear that he isn't happy - let's hope it is just that he's feeling a bit sore and we can get back on track soon.
 
Bit more of an update - he's been suspicious of me since gelding and even more since walkers left the property open and he got out. He's not been aggressive in any way, but has been very evasive as to being caught and no wanting fuss, whereas he was starting to initiate it. As he was fine with the vet, I decided to get a NH trainer out (he's well thought of so thought he would be the best bet). He started working loose with him in the school to allow him to find his own comfort zone and started doing whatever it was that he does with them (I wasn't exactly sure and he didn't explain very well). My boy was getting more and more anxious (in my view) but the NH man just kept saying 'see he is relaxing - he's licking and chewing' and wanted to push him a little more out of his comfort zone. I could see that he was getting more and more tense and anticipated that he might explode - not safe as I have seen his very bad side. I told the trainer that I didn't want to continue as I wasn't happy with how my horse was behaving. I didn't say anything about thinking his interpretation was wrong, I just wanted him gone. He started harping on that it's no wonder the horse has become aggressive with me and that I didn't understand horse behaviour. I was astounded - it was perfectly clear that the licking and chewing wasn't relaxation, especially as every time he approached the horse he pinned his ears back too.

With hindsight maybe I should have got a woman as he hates men?

I'm quite upset with the situation - he is none the worse for his experience but what could have happened if I'd allowed him to continue?

I'll try and get a video of the licking behaviour as it's hard to explain.
 
Licking and chewing is often associated with being acutely stressed or getting a fright. By itself it doesn't mean the horse is relaxed. It may indicate an easing of that stress, or a brief respite from it, but whatever caused the stress, such as being pushed or chased around, may still be there. I think your instinct was justified in this case.

NH trainers may be experienced and effective, but in my view their interpretations can be way off - relative to my behavioural viewpoint anyway. He didn't talk about dominance by any chance? That's usually a pretty good sign of misinterpretation and, consequently, misapplication.

It's hard to know for sure what would have happened if he had been allowed to continue. It is possible your boy would have given in and 'behaved' as the trainer wanted, sooner or later. Or he might have been noticeably traumatized. Or he may have become aggressive again. I very much doubt there would have been a lasting beneficial outcome, but I could be wrong.
 
He did talk about dominant behaviour when referring to his aggressive behaviour. I'd say it's more defensive though...

Tonight I managed to walk up to him and pop a head collar on first time - that's a result as normally he dodges me for a bit first.
 
EQUIDAE said:
He did talk about dominant behaviour when referring to his aggressive behaviour. I'd say it's more defensive though...
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It could well be! There are several possible causes of aggressive behaviour; dominance is only one of them, and arguably one of the least relevant to the majority of situations involving people and horses.

May I ask: did he say, or imply by what he said, what "dominant behaviour" calls for by way of response? How did he expect to deal with it?

Tonight I managed to walk up to him and pop a head collar on first time - that's a result as normally he dodges me for a bit first.
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Great, progress! :) It'll take patience and sensitivity, but keep doing what works and makes things better, and avoid doing what doesn't and makes things worse.
 
Not sure which part of the world you are in but if you look on this site (equine behaviour and training association):

http://www.ebta.co.uk/

you will find trainers who are scientifically trained in equine behaviour and will tell you your instincts behind the licking and chewing were correct. It is fearful submissive behaviour and not one you would really want to encourage. If you do think you want some help then ebta would be my first port of call. I have used a behaviourist twice with excellent results. The thing also is that the behaviour shouldn't return if it is addressed correctly. Many 'quick fixes' will work for a short time but the behaviour may return. Also worth reading some of the blogs on here:

www.hartshorsemanship.com

look at the 'Thoughts' tab. There is loads of interesting stuff......I've not read it all but very educational.

Good luck with him. :)
 
Thanks for the replies and suggestions - I'm going to look into it.

I managed to get a video of him and his tongue - and this is 'relaxed' in the stable...
 
I bred an aggressive horse she was aggressive from a foal biting and lashing out with her forelegs was her speciality .
I spent a fortune at the vet trying to find a reason at three she went for me when was brushing her mane and knocked me out I came to in the corridor outside the stable I have no idea how I got out there I had her PTS the next week.
If you had bought her you would have thought her badly treated but she was not .
It was sad but it was the safest thing to do .
 
Interesting. It looks as if he has been given something juicy to eat before the video and he is now licking his lips. Assuming that isn't the case, it might be so-called "displacement activity" - which can happen when there is a conflict between two motivations e.g. wanting to investigate something but also being a bit fearful or uncertain of it - that something being you in this instance! I wouldn't say it's a big deal though. I think you are on the right track with him.
 
Goldenstar said:
I had her PTS the next week.
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I had considered this at the start :( he's had his nads off now so any hormonal influence should go. He does seem to want to be friendly, just hasn't known how.

fburton said:
Interesting. It looks as if he has been given something juicy to eat before the video and he is now licking his lips. Assuming that isn't the case, it might be so-called "displacement activity" - which can happen when there is a conflict between two motivations e.g. wanting to investigate something but also being a bit fearful or uncertain of it - that something being you in this instance! I wouldn't say it's a big deal though. I think you are on the right track with him.
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He's like this all the time, even without treats (none in this instance). I think you are bang on with describing him - that is exactly what he is like. When he is confident he is a lovely chap...

Thank you for you kind comments saying I am on the right track with him - that means so much. I took quite a lot of flack when I first posted - people described the situation as 'odd' and to be honest I got the feeling that people thought I was some sort of idiot.

I've started another approach with him today. When you go to put a head collar on him he will stand with his body next to you and turn his head away - almost refusing to look at you. If you put a hand under his neck and pull a little he will turn his head towards you to put the head collar on but it is reluctant. So I'm doing something I've never done before (because I'm not a fan TBH) and I am target training him. I'm using his headcollar as the target - I started off holding the headcollar towards him and did nothing and the second he moved towards it I gave him a treat. He cottoned on pretty quickly which hand had the treats in but I kept my hand closed until he touched the headcollar. Within half a dozen treats he was going for the headcollar hand rather than the treat. Next I moved to delivering the treat through the nose of the headcollar and within half a dozen times he was putting his nose in the headcollar himself to get the treat. I stopped there and will do some more over the next few days. The plan is to get him headcollaring himself ;)

It's been a positive day :) I've also had my mare jumping mini spreads for the first time (she's 6) and had my first canter on my 5yo entire.

The girl

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The boy with my instructor - must get some pics of me riding...

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Tiddlypom said:
Not read the whole thread, but looking at his antics with his tongue in post #115, has he been seen by a dentist? Looks like discomfort to me.
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He's only two and hasn't started losing his milk teeth yet. All the milk teeth are normal in position, shape and size - I had the vet check him over when he was being gelded.
 
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