Agreed purchase price, but seller sold to someone else!

I am rather concerned that the OP still seems more angry and concerned about not getting the horse she wanted than the money back from the transporter? I do not believe there is a court in the land that would uphold a verbal contract of sale - especially when a deposit was refused - perhaps this was the hint the OP needed not to go ahead and book transport.

I mean, who in their right mind would pay cash for a transporter when the sale was not down in black and white? Surely the OP has to put this down to a very bad and steep learning curve?

What about the vetting of the PX horse? Was this never discussed? The whole episode screams of half truths and half promises.

If the dealer was keen to get a sale he/she would have made sure the contract was signed - it is in their interest to tie down the sale. If they are not happy with the PX then they will refuse deposit and signature of a contract.
 
over my horsey lifetime so far i have bought 10 horses/ponies - i have only ever paid a deposit for 1! I have offered to for some of the others and i was told it wasnt needed. a couple of them it was upto 4 weeks after the sale was agreed when transport took place, and payment made. (one was actually delivered by the transpost company, then the owners drove over (from the other side of the country) that evening to see she had settled and to collect the money!!! very trusting sellers!)
I would have been so upset if this had happened with any of mine. I think it's fair to assume once a sale is agreed that the horse is sold to them and someone can go ahead and book transport etc!
(i have also never had any vetted.... as i know someone posted that not having a vetting could imply that the sale was going to fall through)

I really hope the OP gets some of her transport costs back, and that this dealer now knows how upset you are and hopefully wont do it again to another customer of hers.
 
mcnaughty said:
I do not believe there is a court in the land that would uphold a verbal contract of sale - especially when a deposit was refused - perhaps this was the hint the OP needed not to go ahead and book transport.
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Well (as another law student) I disagree. All the aspects of a binding contract certainly seem to be met, and of course a verbal contract can be binding, so the OP has every right to act in reliance/as if she believes it to be enforceable/going ahead.

I am rather concerned that the OP still seems more angry and concerned about not getting the horse she wanted than the money back from the transporter?
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Well of course we want contracts to be enforceable when a fundamental condition, a term at the root of the contract, is breached. :confused: Were it just a term that was warranted, then its fair that damages would be all she could expect, but this is the very subject matter of the sale.

Anyway, OP, if the horse has truly been sold on to some other innocent party now then sadly you won't be able to demand specific performance :( but you have every right to be aggrieved that the contract has been breached :(

For the record, I personally always insist on handing over a deposit (even though the last two sellers I dealt with said there absolutely was no need) and get them to sign a contract. I've been a gazumped myself in the past, and know how frustrating and disappointing it is. It's a hard lesson learnt :(
 
myhorsefred said:
thanks for your replies.

lea840 - you say you don't think the seller did anything wrong?

Let me put this to you:

1. I agree verbally to buy your horse, you accept verbally and also via text.
2. We agree that I will travel across the country and pick the horse up later that afternoon.
3. I travel seven hours to you to collect the horse and when I get there you say, 'oh, sorry i sold the horse half an hour ago'. Do you think that is fair?

The only difference in my case is that I was sending someone else to pick up for me and on a different day.
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Don't get me wrong I do feel for you as it must be upsetting to have something you have your heart set on not work out...

I dont think you will have a problem in getting most of your money back from the transport company, unless it was cancelled 24hrs prior to said agreement. Have they got a website with their T&C's on? I certainly do and it is made very clear to the customer what is expected of them and what they can expect from me.

Points 2 & 3 above didn't happen as you didnt travel 7 hours and turn up at their yard only to be told the horse had been sold to another buyer, you have been told in advance. To me personally the alarm bell would of started ringing slighlty when no deposit was made, that the dealer made an agreement to PX a horse (yours) without any knowledge of it other than your word, I mean you saw her horse and for all she knew you could of said your horse was a mega star only for it to come off the wagon with 3 legs... Maybe i'm just over careful when it comes to the purchase of things valued at more than my weekly shop lol but to me a dealer agreeing to a PX that she has never seen would of been enough to make me think...!

I would of wanted something in writing... agreeing to things over text isn't always wise as we all know that not every single text message is recieved on mobiles. I notice that you said you had both agreed to go away and get 'quotes' but you went away and booked your transport... maybe she was under the impression that you would go away, get a quote and she wouldn't hear from you again. It all depends on what texts she got from you and the impression she was under. I'm not taking either side as I don't think all of the facts are on the table and it would be unfair to take a side but from the facts you have said so far I think you might struggle a bit on this one.

It will be interesting to read your update from the equine solicitor your contacting and I do hope that you're not left out of pocket too much...
 
And, while its of absolutley no comfort to you, thank you for posting this up. I too, would have made that same mistake so thank you for the warnings. I hadn't really given a deposit that much thought before but now I can see its a firm legal statement of intent. Equally, if I do sell my horse then I will also insist on a deposit!

Good luck tomorrow.
 
myhorsefred said:
SophieLouBee - thanks for your comments.

It is shocking that this regularly happens in the horse world - when you say that a cash sale will always go before a part ex, even if a contract/firm agreement has been made. Do horse dealers think they can operate outside of the law then? Surely something needs to be done about unfair/dishonest treatment of buyers in the horse market.

Why is it ok for dealers to treat people like this and accept cash, even though they have agreed a sale previously. Just because, 'oh well, its the horse world, and that is what regularly happens' doesn't make it right!

Not having a pop at you SophieLouBee - just saying that its not right or fair to agree to sell and then sell to someone else who happens to appear on their yard with cash. Disgusting.
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It most certainly isn't right or fair! Unfortunately, this really is a minor aspect of what goes on in 'their' world. Hence why I don't think legal action would be of any use, they get away with a lot worse. At the end of the day, they see it as a business, and couldn't give two hoots about you, whoever has the money there and then, gets the horse.
Like buying out of the ring I suppose, highest bidder wins... Very, very different to private buying, and a lot of people go in with the wrong expectations about it.
But no, OP you are totally right, it is an utter sham, and people shouldn't be able to get away with it.

Luckily not all of them are like this, I know some cracking guys who I've had some fab horses off, they will always advise me against things that 'take my fancy', if they are 'bad eggs', and they will always take the horse back in exchange for another if the horse turns out to be unsuitable. They also transport the horse personally to me, so I don't end up getting caught out there.
It's just having the right contacts I guess.

Good luck with finding another horse, and I hope it works out for you.
 
Booboos said:
I think you need to speak to a lawyer asap. I am not a lawyer but as far as I know a verbal contract is as binding as a written one under UK law. Do you have any witnesses who heard you agree the price etc.? Without a witness is may be harder to prove, and either way you may need to prepare yourself for hefty legal costs if you want to enforce the contract.
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I know that in Scottish law a verbal contract iss binding (not sure elsewhere) however it would not be worth persuing as legal fees would be expensive and you technically have lost nothing as the horse was never owned by you.

Morally, what the seller did was not very nice and Im sure I would be upset if i were you too. However, as you had not left a deposit you cannot expect someone to 'keep' the horse for you. I hope you find another one soon. Remember to INSIST on a deposit and get a reciept for it which states SUBJECT TO VETTING

best wishes
 
mcnaughty said:
I am rather concerned that the OP still seems more angry and concerned about not getting the horse she wanted than the money back from the transporter? I do not believe there is a court in the land that would uphold a verbal contract of sale.
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Now this is where you are very wrong. Some years ago i was sued for this very reason and the other party won. Didn't matter that we had backed out of the deal due to things that came to light afterwards that anyone one in their right mind wouldnt' have bought the horse. Didn't matter that he then sold the horse to someone else for more money! It went to court and the court awarded in favour of the seller. At the same time a few other people were being sued for that very reason, a verbal contract is legally binding!
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I can understand the OP being upset, I would be too. BUT what does she think could happen? The dealer has sold the horse to someone else, who presumably has removed it from the dealer's premises. How does the OP think that she can enforce the contract, does she expect the dealer to get the horse back from some-one who has paid in full for it, in order to sell it on to her? I really cannot see that happening, or any judge even trying to enforce that.
The only thing to do now is move on, learn from the experience and try to get as much money as possible back from the transporter.
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I do tend to agree with this^^^^
Somone else out there has obviously set their heart on this horse too, paid in cash and properly collected it already, do you actually want to put them through something that will make them feel even worse than you do now when they haven't even done anything wrong. I don't see how you could ever actually get this horse now. I would go for getting expenses in lieu. You are not the first and will not be the last person to get gazumped when buying and selling horses, there is obviously a better horse for you out there somewhere you just need to find it.
 
I would contact the transport company and ask them for a refund.
List all your other expenses.
Write to the dealer concerned by Royal Mail Special Delivery asking for your expenses and for valid payment within 14 days.
If they fail to pay up simply take them to the small claims court. Do it on-line as per the below link.
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
If they do not settle within the prescribed period of time then ask the small claims court for a judgment.
The debtor will then show up on any credit search.
 
ossy said:
You are not the first and will not be the last person to get gazumped when buying and selling horses,
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... or a house, or a car, or a piece of furniture, or appliances ... or anything else really. If you don't pay upfront or leave a deposit then you have to accept that the goods are not yours until fully paid for.
 
I have to say I agree with Spring Feather.

I know the dealer, I know the full history behind this story (and that is what it is 'a story') and lets just say 'There are MOST DEF two sides.......
 
Vicki_Krystal said:
I have to say that on knowing who the dealer is i am VERY shocked!

They always get mentioned on here as one of the 'GOOD' dealers out there so i can understand the OP being more than upset.
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I know the dealer in question too and was shocked to read this post, not their normal operating procedure at all.

Was also surprised to see that they offered to part exchange as never known them to do this.

Did the dealer see your horse you wanted to part ex or a video?
 
No plot - as Cazzy says above the dealer has never been be known to P/Ex anything, so the 'story' starts there! Not my place to say, just not happy with the comments being written above about what is clearly NOT correct and not what happened at all.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I can understand the OP being upset, I would be too. BUT what does she think could happen? The dealer has sold the horse to someone else, who presumably has removed it from the dealer's premises. How does the OP think that she can enforce the contract, does she expect the dealer to get the horse back from some-one who has paid in full for it, in order to sell it on to her? I really cannot see that happening, or any judge even trying to enforce that.
The only thing to do now is move on, learn from the experience and try to get as much money as possible back from the transporter.
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Agree completely, you are not going to get the horse so why bother with the hassle and costs of going down the legal route?
 
I have not had a lot of luck with horses due to lying sellers, so I was very nervous about parting with more cash when I went to the dealer you are talking about! She was amazingly honest about her stock and matched me to my beast who is perfect for me and my situation and for the price I paid!!
However I couldnt collect him straight away as I had to wait for extra stables to be erected at my yard. The dealer was not fussed about a deposit but I drove back the next day and handed over a small sum of money. I then didnt collect him until nearly 4 weeks later due to unforseen problems, she rung me to say do I want this horse as people are interested I said yes and she continued to keep him for me, charging no extra cost for livery etc and also kept him excercised for me!!
I would definitely go back!
 
Does the dealer not have a similar horse for you?
That dealer has always loads of horses and no shortage of people wanting to buy them. I know people who have bought from that dealer and have left a deposit after viewing horse. If dealer didn't want your deposit, it sounds like the deal wasn't sealed. You sure no on else was coming to look at horse before final sale decision?
 
i too have known the dealer in question for many years,and never known her to take p/x's,never! she sells the best horses,will exchange if theres a problem,and will not sell a horse if she doesnt think its suitable. a very reputable dealer,with honesty some dont like!!
 
Sally-FF said:
I guessed as much!!
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polly1976 said:
I have to say I agree with Spring Feather.

I know the dealer, I know the full history behind this story (and that is what it is 'a story') and lets just say 'There are MOST DEF two sides.......
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Polly... There are deffo 2 sides to every story, one is always truthful, the other with the truth twisted to siut that person. From all of the positive comments regarding this dealer my money would be on her side being the more truthful version of events, I mean why would someone damage a good rep for themselves...

Myhorsefred... you were rather vocal about all of this yesterday in as far as you were actually going to name and shame this women, no you have gone silent. Whats the update with the equine solicitor you were ringing today?
 
ok,

not saying what the seller did was right before anyone takes offence. Just wondered what some of you think would happen if the verbal agreement was made then they buyer walked away from it?...verbal agreement not so binding then?
 
Well, for whoever it was who posted that this is a story, I just wish you could see my text messages. But, I'm not really bothered. I know what happened.

And I have no idea how people can post and say you know the dealer in question, because i have not publically named and shamed anyone on this thread.

I contacted an equine solicitor this morning. Agreed that from the evidence I presented them with that I did have a verbal agreement (agreed the price to allowed for part ex, agreed the amount to pay, also agreed that this week is ok for transport, intent etc etc) and i have those agreements also by text.

I can persue this matter in the small claims court and my solicitor thinks i would have a good chance of winning the case. My case is helped by the texts I have. However, some other person has bought this horse and, if a judge found in my favour, I understand that they would be as upset at having to say goodbye to their new horse as I was at having the horse sold from under me.

They agreed with other legal opinion I had previously obtained that goods pass to the person at the time a contract is agreed (written or verbal) and it does not matter that transportation or payment has not happened. It is the point of agreeing a contract that is binding.

I can persue the trader for damages in lieu of specific performance and this is what I am considering at the moment. My solicitor is waiting to take my instructions on this. However, I have not been able to speak to the dealer in question yet, only a member of staff on the yard, and I would like to speak to the dealer first before I start proceedings.

I managed to get hold of the transporter and they refunded me on my card, so that's a relief.

No, this dealer does not normally do part exchange, but liked the look of my horse and was happy to take a part ex in my case. I also have a text to prove this.

I do not make a habit of making up stories on this forum, you can check my previous posts. I know what was said, and what happened.

I haven't posted earlier today as I have been really busy.

I expect some of you will jump on me, as this has been quite a contentious post, and the dealer has a very good reputation, but I now have my legal opinion, which is all I really wanted from this thread. Thank you for those who posted useful comments.
 
polly1976 - you say you know 'the full story' on this.

How do you know the full story? Are you the dealer? Or the member of staff I spoke to yesterday? Because no-one else knows the full story, because I haven't told them.
 
If this is indeed something that can be taken to court then the law is an ass. Crikey this sort of thing happens every single day, in almost all walks of life and I doubt it even crosses most peoples mind if someone else came along and pipped them to the post. You snooze, you lose, isn't that the saying?

A few years ago I test drove a car and liked it enough to tell the car dealer that I wanted it. He said great and we went to complete the paperwork. He asked for a deposit, which I gave, and arranged that we come back a few days later to collect the car. The following morning he phoned me to say that one of the other dealers on the showroom had sold that car to someone else. Oh well. I got my deposit back and looked elsewhere for another car.

More recently I went to see some hay. It was nice hay but was expensively priced, however knowing that hay in large quantities is tough to find I said I would come back and buy some. Later that day I spoke to someone I know and they put me in the direction of someone else who had lots of hay. I went to look at his hay which was nice too and was significantly cheaper. I bought his hay and I have not gone back for the other guys hay.

Come on, these stories happen all the time; stores agree prices with people, the people go off for lunch to discuss buying whatever, they go back to the shop to get the goods, find out that in the time they've been stuffing themselves with delights from the restaurant round the corner, the goods have been sold. That's the way the cookie crumbles and I really can't see why you are making this into such a dramatic episode in your life? :confused:
 
elsazzo said:
ok,

not saying what the seller did was right before anyone takes offence. Just wondered what some of you think would happen if the verbal agreement was made then they buyer walked away from it?...verbal agreement not so binding then?
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this situation of a verbal agreement is no different to when someone agrees to buy a house and six weeks later walks away when they change their mind. I worked in estate agency for over 10 years and lost count number of times vendor or purchaser changed their mind.
As the story goes until the money is in the bank....no deal is done.

To the OP, well done on getting your money refunded on transport. This should now be end of the matter, you didn't get the outcome you wanted with the horse, but that's life sometimes, doesnt always go the way we want. Did you incur any other costs that warrant taking this dealer to court?
 
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