Agreed purchase price, but seller sold to someone else!

amymay said:
Of course the op could persue the seller for compensation. How that makes the law an ass is beyond me.....
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Compensation for what?? She went to look at a horse and didn't buy it. She booked transport and was refunded the money as no transport needed. I'd be very surprised if OP buys every horse she looks at. Does she then ask for compensation when she goes to view a horse that does not turn out to be what she wants? Good lord, nation of pedantics :D
 
Spring feather - I see where you are coming from re verbal agreements. Exactly the same thing happened to my husband a few months back regarding a car. He paid a deposit over the phone for a car at around 4.30pm (dealer was London based). The dealer rang the next morning to say another salesperson in another dealership (but the same group) had sold the car at 4.35.

I guess I'm 'making it a dramatic episode', as you say, because
a) the horse was perfect
b) the seller has brilliant reputation
c) I absolutely trusted the seller
d) We had a deal
e) could picture happy times ahead with new horse
f) had told my daughter who was also in tears when it went wrong
and
g) up until earlier today thought I had also lost transport money.

At least I know now that I haven't lost the transport money. And £600 is quite a lot of money for me!
 
amymay said:
Of course the op could persue the seller for compensation. How that makes the law an ass is beyond me.....
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There is no compensation as there is no loss.

She could go for breach of contract and either push for specific performance or ... I'm not quite sure what else. I doubt the courts will be particularly interested as no money was lost and nobody was hurt.

The dealer I am sure would provide an equivalent horse for the same price if push came to shove. And then the court would be even less interested.
 
Spring Feather said:
Compensation for what?? She went to look at a horse and didn't buy it. She booked transport and was refunded the money as no transport needed. I'd be very surprised if OP buys every horse she looks at. Does she then ask for compensation when she goes to view a horse that does not turn out to be what she wants? Good lord, nation of pedantics :D
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^^^^ this. Although I would be mighty p'ed off if it was me. There is actually nothing to compensate for! There was no sale, no money changed hands and she has not lost out financially. The most that she could hope for would be a refund of her travel costs but even that would be tenuous as no sale took place.
Sorry, I think this one just needs to be forgotten about and chalked up to experience. :o
 
Cazzy - the sale of land (and thereby property on that land) is dealt with by a completely separate law, where verbal agreements are not binding and only written agreements are binding. I would have thought that if you worked in an estate agency for 10 years you might have known that.
 
Yeah it sucks, and yes it's unfortunate and upsetting, however that's life. If all of the people who came to view horses I've had for sale over the years did as they said, that they love the horse and want to buy it, did buy them I'd save myself an awful lot of time and energy ;). How many dealers hear these "buyers" want to buy their horses, only to never hear from them again? It's swings and roundabouts, sometimes you get what you want, sometimes you don't.
 
Spring Feather said:
Compensation for what?? She went to look at a horse and didn't buy it. She booked transport and was refunded the money as no transport needed. I'd be very surprised if OP buys every horse she looks at. Does she then ask for compensation when she goes to view a horse that does not turn out to be what she wants? Good lord, nation of pedantics :D
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Spring Feather - this is where you are wrong. I DID BUY IT. I had a firm verbal agreement. No money changed hands, but it doesn't have to at that stage for it to be legally binding. That's the thing about a verbal contract. It is binding at the stage it is agreed, ie the time of the conversation. Granted there have to be several criteria in that conversation, but a verbal contract is binding.

No, of course I don't ask for compensation on every horse I go and view. But then I don't agree to buy every horse I view! i had agreed to buy this horse in question.
 
starbar said:
^^^^ this. Although I would be mighty p'ed off if it was me. There is actually nothing to compensate for! There was no sale, no money changed hands and she has not lost out financially. The most that she could hope for would be a refund of her travel costs but even that would be tenuous as no sale took place.
Sorry, I think this one just needs to be forgotten about and chalked up to experience. :o
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There was a sale. Not a 'cash in hand' sale as most of you think, but an Agreement for Sale made verbally, which is a sale. Agreed to sell to me at a price. In legal terms there was even a counter offer made, which was communicated and agreed. In legal terms, according to my solicitor, the goods were my property at the time the sale was agreed, even though no money or transportation had taken place. You may think the law in an ass, but that is the law. There is a legal word for the goods passing at that point to the buyer. I wrote it down when I spoke to the solicitor, I'll get the piece of paper in the morning and post what the legal term is.
 
Spring Feather said:
Compensation for what?? She went to look at a horse and didn't buy it. She booked transport and was refunded the money as no transport needed. I'd be very surprised if OP buys every horse she looks at. Does she then ask for compensation when she goes to view a horse that does not turn out to be what she wants? Good lord, nation of pedantics :D
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Very tactfully put.
 
I think it's really awful about what has happened, but why not channel this anger into looking for another horse? Everything happens for a reason and perhaps the money you're spending on legal advice you could put towards your new ned :D
 
Shezza, good point, I will direct my energies to somewhere other than this thread - I am getting slightly miffed at having to explain:

a) the interpretation and application of the law in this country (i'm only repeating what I was told by my solicitor, who specialises in equine and contract law)
b) whether a 'sale' was made whether money changed hands or not
c) who was in the right or the wrong
d) and defend myself when people think I am 'telling stories'

For the few of you who have posted nasty and negative comments, I now know why I was glad to leave bitchy livery yards behind all those years ago. Thank you.

For those of you who say you know who the dealer is, please be careful not to name any names on this thread. I haven't named any names on this thread and have been very careful not to.

Thanks for the helpful comments. Last one out, please turn the light off.
 
myhorsefred said:
Spring feather - I see where you are coming from re verbal agreements. Exactly the same thing happened to my husband a few months back regarding a car. He paid a deposit over the phone for a car at around 4.30pm (dealer was London based). The dealer rang the next morning to say another salesperson in another dealership (but the same group) had sold the car at 4.35.

I guess I'm 'making it a dramatic episode', as you say, because
a) the horse was perfect
b) the seller has brilliant reputation
c) I absolutely trusted the seller
d) We had a deal
e) could picture happy times ahead with new horse
f) had told my daughter who was also in tears when it went wrong
and
g) up until earlier today thought I had also lost transport money.

At least I know now that I haven't lost the transport money. And £600 is quite a lot of money for me!
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glad you got your transport money back :)

unfortunatly none of the items on the list above have a monetary value attached and this is what it would be based on in court. Believe me, if you went to see a solicitor you just wouldnt have a case. I have been through a court case involving a horse which we lost ALOT of money and we still have not recouped the costs. Put it down to experience-Put yourself in the sellers shoes, if somene waved cash infront of you and offered to take the horse that day would you not do the same? You had no legal rights to this horse as it was not your 'property' as it were.....also, just wondered if we are hearing the whole story-had you had the horse vetted or were you yet to arrange that?
 
Sorry but I don't think you really have a leg to stand on. Coming from the other end of the stick I buy and sell and was recently bitten by a real time waster. They viewed the horse no less than six times, on 3rd time left a cheque deposit (I will take a cheque on trust and in contract that deposit is only refundable on failure of vet) had it vetted (it passed) and agreed to arrange delivery the following week (4 weeks in from first viewing). In the two days following the vetting they turned up again with a PC instructor and I heard nothing from them, put cheque in the bank only to have an email 3 days after the instructor turned up (the day horse was meant to be moved) saying PC instructor thought it was too big and too young for the client and had told them not to buy it. I also was then graced with a returned deposit cheque (they had stopped it which breached contract) and then would not answer my calls or emails. Scum. I had kept horse for 4 weeks with no livery costs, kept it fed, exercised and not shown to anyone else in this period. They also had the cheek to refuse to pay deposit again or answer any phone calls. Someone else has since bought the horse and bought on the understanding that it had passed a vetting, as I'm not the type to take to small claims as hate the hassle I tried to do a deal for the vet cert on the horse and was refused this. So when new purchaser wanted it I gave them the time wasters umber direct as they would pick up to an unknown number, they then had the further cheek to try and ask for cash to release the vets cert! Client thought it better to give them £50 to shut them up and save themselves another vetting but when there are scum like this about looking for horses is it any wonder that a dealer will take a sure cash sale over a part ex and unsure deal. Your horse if taken in part ex could have been anything, might have been a nightmare that dealer was stuck with for months and you might not have been totally honest from the word go about your own horse or abilities. I would always give preference to my existing and returning clients and of course give preference to cash sale and horse out the door. Really you should be thinking lesson learned and next time leave a firm deposit with a written receipt of full terms of sale, inc. if you are doing a part ex details of your horse written on receipt and details of the horse to be purchased. My lesson from my TW's was that now I don't take cheque deposits and will be firmer with time scales, horse vetted within one week of deposit and picked up within one week of vetting, or deposit lost to cover livery. So many people agree to buy horses and then just don't call back, say they love it and then walk away etc. I'm sure if the dealer really wanted your horse and to do the deal they would have been more forceful about taking deposit and would have also viewed your horse first. In my mind the other party had already viewed the horse and were half interested so dealer was going to stick out for cash sale.
 
myhorsefred said:
For those of you who say you know who the dealer is, please be careful not to name any names on this thread. I haven't named any names on this thread and have been very careful not to.QUOTE]

But that was the very thing YOU were threatening to do to this dealer... Your own post said you wanted to "Name and Shame" her. No you appear to have a change of mind... Hmmm
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Spring Feather said:
Compensation for what?? She went to look at a horse and didn't buy it.
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On the contrary the OP made a contract with the seller to buy the horse. The contract was broken by the seller. The intention on behalf of the buyer was to adhere that contract. The action of the seller was to break that contract.

At its most fundamental level, compensation is a legal device by which individuals can receive some recompense, generally financial, for a wrong perpetrated by a third party. This is a basic right in law and the OP has every right to follow this matter through to its conclussion.
 
We know who the dealer is because OP mentioned it in an earlier thread about buying a horse. OP in an earlier thread mentioned possibly buying unseen as she couldn't be bothered to travel 200 miles to see the horse(despite also saying she was a nervous rider).

I know this dealer and its excellent and obviously had severe doubts about whether OP would bother getting the horse therefore sold it to someone it considered a more serious buyer. Can't blame the dealer for that.

OP has got all costs back (the transport) and is in the same situation as if this did not happen. Why take legal action? Just sounds like a waste of money just to be vindictive.

Who hasn't fallen in love with a horse but been unable to buy it? I fell in love with one that failed the vetting. Should I have sued the owner because I was upset. Of course not.

Grow up and move on.

Oh, any by the way OP you had not bought the horse. You had entered into a contract to buy the horse which is a different thing. You don't actually own it until to pay - a small thing but thought I'd better correct you from an earlier post! I think you have misunderstood your solicitor in that point. The horse is not your property until you have paid for it - albeit you have entered into a contract to buy it. Otherwise you could have said "its now my property I'm taking it and not paying for it".

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter who was right, who was wrong, and what the law says. The simple facts are you cannot have the horse you wanted, you have no monetary loss now you have your refund so what do you want to gain?
 
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Oh, any by the way OP you had not bought the horse
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Yes, they had.


Offer and acceptance is a traditional approach in contract law used to determine whether an agreement exists between two parties. Agreement consists of an offer by an indication of one person (the "offeror") to another (the "offeree") of the offeror's willingness to enter into a contract on certain terms without further negotiations. A contract is said to come into existence when acceptance of an offer (agreement to the terms in it) has been communicated to the offeror by the offeree and there has been consideration bargained-for induced by promises or a promise and performance.
 
amymay said:
Yes, they had.


Offer and acceptance is a traditional approach in contract law used to determine whether an agreement exists between two parties. Agreement consists of an offer by an indication of one person (the "offeror") to another (the "offeree") of the offeror's willingness to enter into a contract on certain terms without further negotiations. A contract is said to come into existence when acceptance of an offer (agreement to the terms in it) has been communicated to the offeror by the offeree and there has been consideration bargained-for induced by promises or a promise and performance.
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As I said (if you read it) - yes she entered into a contract to buy the horse but did not actually own it - that is, it was not her property as the OP has claimed in an earlier post. There is a distinction between the two.

It does not become her property until she has paid for it and that was what I was correcting the OP on. I am well aware of contract law as what you have quoted is very basic.
 
myhorsefred said:
polly1976 - you say you know 'the full story' on this.

How do you know the full story? Are you the dealer? Or the member of staff I spoke to yesterday? Because no-one else knows the full story, because I haven't told them.
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I am not the dealer, or staff, I am what is known in the business as a friend! Just because you haven't told your side of the story does not mean the dealer in question does not talk to her friends about interesting people she has to deal with on a daily basis.

My posts are not meant to be nasty, more of an objective view from the other side of the fence. Chalk it up to experience, you are not out of pocket and as someone else posted, maybe that horse was not meant to be.
 
myhorsefred said:
Shezza, good point, I will direct my energies to somewhere other than this thread - I am getting slightly miffed at having to explain:

a) the interpretation and application of the law in this country (i'm only repeating what I was told by my solicitor, who specialises in equine and contract law)
b) whether a 'sale' was made whether money changed hands or not
c) who was in the right or the wrong
d) and defend myself when people think I am 'telling stories'
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I note that you have note acknowledged my original post at comment number 38. Now follows an extract from that message...

"For this to be a legally binding contract you have to show 5 things...

1, A valid offer
2, A valid acceptance
3, Communication of that acceptance
4, Consideration
5, And an Intention to Create Legal Relations (ICLR)"

I'm glad you have now seemingly been to a solicitor. I'd love to know which one it was, name and firm? Your problem is, based on what you have said thus far, is that I think there may well be a valid offer but with regard to the valid acceptance and communication of that acceptance, all you have done is make reference to text messages. If these do exist, the precise wording of the text messages will be the key to your problem. What is the precise wording? If it is clear that there is an acceptance based on the exact, verbatim, wording then you may be okay. However, your problem is still points 4 and 5. I do not think there is any consideration here. You havent suffered any detriment, the seller no benefit other than the promise of cash on sale. I think there has to be something more than a promise to pay for consideration to be valid.
Finally, based on the precise wording of the texts you say you have, it would be (ultimately) for a court to decide on this point unless it is very expressly stated in such a way that makes the ICLR criteria successful. It does not sound like you will win because of this very point. Anyone selling anything will refuse a deposit if they have other interested buyers, for example. Whatever the reason, the fact that the deposit was actually refused suggests that there was no intention to create a legal relationship on the sellers part (even though there might have been on your part). Assuming she would respond to a solicitors letter, you may find out the reason why she didnt take a deposit but for that reason alone, I do not think you will be successful in court because unless we know the reason WHY she refused the deposit, we can only speculate that she did NOT have an intention to create a legal relationship... so therefore you WOULD NOT win if it went to trial.

In conclusion, the precise words in your text messages may help to establish up to point 4.... but you need to know why she didnt accept a deposit to decide point 5. The only reason I can think that she might refuse a deposit is if she would normally NOT take a deposit on sales of horses...but I think this is likely to be not the case.

Show your solicitor my concerns. I'd love to know his opinion based on the above. I dont think you will win purely because she refused a deposit from you. That means you fail at point 5 even if you are successful at points 1-4.

And I didnt even charge you for my "opinion".

I'd appreciate the mutual respect of answering my questions and points made about given I have spent the time writing this.

1) What firm and solicitor is dealing with this now? I'd like to know just because I dont agree with his opinion based on the evidence you have mentioned to date. If you are paying him, this wont be a problem for you.
2) What is the EXACT (copy it from the message, dont paraphrase it) wording of the text that shows she accepted the offer you made?
3) Ignoring the consideration point (your solicitor will advise you on whether the promise to do something consitutes consideration or not), play devils advocate for a moment. It could save you the expense of a solicitor losing your case... Why do YOU think she refused your deposit?

If you answer me all 3 points above, I would be able to put money on the outcome of your case. If you dont answer each point, I will only have to ask you again until you do answer it.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Lea
 
prorider said:
We know who the dealer is because OP mentioned it in an earlier thread about buying a horse. OP in an earlier thread mentioned possibly buying unseen as she couldn't be bothered to travel 200 miles to see the horse(despite also saying she was a nervous rider).

Prorider - re the previous post you refer to above. That is not the dealer I am having difficulty with now.

I have been looking for a horse for a while and have probably contacted about eight to ten dealers over the course of my search. I have only had good dealings with the dealer that you (wrongly) assume.
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Gosh, such a traumatising experience. I have read it all through today. It is sad and upsetting, but if it were me I'd just learn from it and move on. Life can be cruel, but people have businesses to run to survive. I have been in tears over bad situations with vettings and looking at horses, but you learn and become a wiser person for it.

Sorry that this has been such a bad experience.

I must say though, more and more often on this forum I am seeing more "bitchiness" and less constructive advice. Sigh.

Oooh, I'm keen to know the outcome too.:)
 
myhorsefred said:
prorider said:
We know who the dealer is because OP mentioned it in an earlier thread about buying a horse. OP in an earlier thread mentioned possibly buying unseen as she couldn't be bothered to travel 200 miles to see the horse(despite also saying she was a nervous rider).

Prorider - re the previous post you refer to above. That is not the dealer I am having difficulty with now.

I have been looking for a horse for a while and have probably contacted about eight to ten dealers over the course of my search. I have only had good dealings with the dealer that you (wrongly) assume.
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Not to be mean but if 1 person has problems with several others maybe the problem lies with the 1 not all the others?
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Things happen in life for a reason - this wasn't meant to be. I bet in 6 months time when you have found your soul mate you will breathe a sigh of relief that you got the right horse despite your best efforts. Honestly this will be for the best and (not bitchy) can I suggest that you are just making yourself stressed. Go and start looking again (before you waste all your time and money on lawyers)
 
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