Agreed purchase price, but seller sold to someone else!

Hannahbelle and scary mare - thanks for your comments. Yes, I hope in six months time I will have found my horse.



I'm off this thread now because it is keeping me stressed about the whole situation. (I only jumped back in on this thread because another member had assumed who the dealer was and they were wrong.) I realise this has been a contentious thread as my solicitors opinion seems to differ from some of your opinions. But I am happy to take my solicitors advice. Thanks again.
 
Your ignorance to comment 116 is noted. One can only assume that you are not being truthful with the facts.... or.. do not have the answers to the posed questions... meaning that you wont win your case.

You may call it bitchy if you like. The fact is, they are exact things your solicitor will be asking you to prove. The five points I have referred to... Offer, Acceptance, Communication of Acceptance, Consideration and ICLR.

I would put money on the note you wrote that legal word down on will have "Consideration" written on it.

I suspect we wont ever get to find out the answer to this... I suspect you will disperse like a fart in a cullender but even if you just tell me to get lost, we could get the closure from that we all now want to see! :o)
 
Myhorsefred - it must have been disappointing to be in that situation. If you believe everything happens for a reason, then an even better match is waiting for you to find him/her 80) Congrats however on getting the transporter money back - hopefully this money and the concentration of your energy will help to successfully bring in the next horse you buy 80) Best of luck with the search!
 
Firstly I'm glad you're not out of pocket and ultimately although disappointed have not suffered any real loss. BUT Ok its a few years since my law degree but I am struggling to find anything that could be constituted as consideration which is essential to a binding contract. This is why you should ALWAYS leave a deposit even if just £1. Its the same reason that if you give someone a horse (or car/house/object etc) you should always actually ask for £1 from then so that legally there is no doubt as to ownership.

For all users in future get things in writing and make sure you leave a deposit. Had there been a deposit and the OP was truthful in all their comments (not questionning actual validity of comments just being clear ;) ) then although the original contract would not have been upheld by any sensible judge given the value of the horse involved (i can make a clear assumption from the fact you were going to the small claims court ;) ) the judge may award some damages for breach of contract. You would though be very lucky to also get costs awarded which is why so many people self represent in small claims court!
 
Sorry you lost out on buying this horse.

Glad you got your transportation costs back.

Hope you find a new horse soon.

Don't go down the small claims route - you can win but even then that doesn't mean the other party will pay anything (speaking as someone who won a small claims case but the other party decided they didn't fancying paying ...).
 
Very very interesting thread. Also very interesting how some posters truly jumped down the throat of the OP. She was cross, she vented, she asked for advice.

We have had a lot of people quoting their beliefs as fact. It has also been highly illuminating to read the actual legal reality from those posters who DO know the law. I have learnt lessons here re: deposits as well! In her shoes wouldn't any of you felt highly aggrieved? and wanted to know where you stood? Thanks to the proper advice its clear that she wouldn't get very far but tis still good to know. So, as she is a forum member, allow her to be cross, give her advice and be a little less hasty in being judgemental!
 
Luci07... Your right I think anyone would be upset but the law is there to protect the seller as much as any buyer...

I havn't take sides and I dont think anyone really can unless they knew the actual wording that was used in the verbal and via text but with the OP is unwilling to explain further, other than to say she has text messages, all people can do is advise the best they feel they can on sketchy info & wording.

She was wanting to name & shame this dealer based on her anger of not being able to buy the horse, had she done that it may well have turned the tables against her in as much as it would of been her getting a possible solicitors letter from the dealer, who knows!

There are good dealers and there are bad dealers, we all know that but naming and shaming in a case where the OP obviously wasn't 100% sure where she stood could infact be very damaging for a seller/dealer...

I don't think it was a case of jumping down her throat I think it was more a case of the readers where trying to help her get to the bottom of this in order to offer some help but when you only get half of a story off someone and they are unwilling to commit to the whole truth then they do tend to fade into the background, which is what appears to have happend her (in my opinion of course)

It is pleasing to here that she was able to get her £600 back from the transport company, which I think any decent company would do, so at least she has suffered no loss in that respect :)
 
Lea84 - you seem to have a lot of emotional investment in the matter...? I'm guessing you're involved with the dealer. And demanding the OP answers all your questions.. seriously?? :D This is isn't midsomer murders :D Please don't sue with me with your deficient legal knowledge
 
I have absolutely no involvement with the dealer at all... I don't know who she is but it really bugs me when people shout their mouth off wanting to bad mouth someone else without proper foundation to what they are saying...

They always disappear back into the back ground when someone leans a bit of pressure on them... Quick to say how bad this dealer is but never actually comes up with the goods and totally avoids answering question which infact are the same questions any solicitor would ask, so if all is true then myhorsefred shouldn't really have a problem in answering but in this case she has disappeared into the background...

Deficient legal knowledge? that must make you a solicitor too then??

Yours truely

Insp John Nettles :D
 
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Whether you were there or not, most transporters dont take full payment up front only a deposit, & if there is enough notice that is often returnable less admin charge. How many miles were they charging you for? You can take the dealer to small claims, but I would be checking the the transporter in the first instance.

Have since read you did get your costs back, thats good, did not think you could loose out there.
 
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I too am astounded by the bitchiness on this thread !

I personally think the op has oodles of reasons to bad mouth an unknown to us person who has really dissapointed her.
Can you not remember how excited you were when you found the horse you think you are going to buy you cannot sleep with excitement, you start planning, imagining grooming , how they will settle , how they will feel to ride at home etc etc or is it just me ( and I suspect the op ).
I too would have been devistated if this had happened to me and no lea840 I wouldn't answer your questions either!

The dealer did let the op down, unless off course the op is lieing which I doubt. Even if there is another side to the story as we are told there was a verbal contract which should not have been broken.

And if the op wants to go down the legal route that is her buisness and not ours.

Whatever she chooses I wish her well and hope she finds a suitable horse.
 
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sun-shine said:
Lea84 - you seem to have a lot of emotional investment in the matter...? I'm guessing you're involved with the dealer. And demanding the OP answers all your questions.. seriously?? :D This is isn't midsomer murders :D Please don't sue with me with your deficient legal knowledge
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I must admit I am rather surprised/suspicious of Lea84's fairly aggressive questioning of the poor OP!

OP I am sure you are disappointed, anyone would be in your situation and I can fully understand why you feel the way you do, thankfully you are not out of pocket and can concentrate on finding your real soulmate :)
 
lea840 said:
I have absolutely no involvement with the dealer at all... I don't know who she is but it really bugs me when people shout their mouth off wanting to bad mouth someone else without proper foundation to what they are saying...
Click to expand...

Lea840, I've probably missed it somewhere but I don't remember the OP saying the dealer is a 'she'. Like I say, the OP probably has and I've just not picked it up.
 
Isn't the point of asking for advice to be given the answer... sometimes the answer isn't always what you want to hear but if you dont want honest answers off the good folk on here then its simple... don't ask in the first place. I think you are mistaking my comments as 'bitchy' when infact they are specifically answering her questions based on sound legal knowledge. That isn't being bitchy, its intelligently answering her questions even though it might not be what she wants to read in her upset and rage...
 
Amaranta said:
I must admit I am rather surprised/suspicious of Lea84's fairly aggressive questioning of the poor OP!

OP I am sure you are disappointed, anyone would be in your situation and I can fully understand why you feel the way you do, thankfully you are not out of pocket and can concentrate on finding your real soulmate :)
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Suspicious... ok I come out... I am the dealer... move on lol

Its no more than any solicitor would be asking, so if she is so timid to answer... then she has to ask her self could she stand up in court and point the finger??
 
Sorry but I fail to see what is intelligent about likening the OP to a fart in a cullender :confused:

You did not question but demanded answers - there is a difference!

Whilst I would not presume to question the accuracy of your statements, I do feel that your delivery style is somewhat lacking in empathy.
 
lannerch said:
I too am astounded by the bitchiness on this thread !

I personally think the op has oodles of reasons to bad mouth an unknown to us person who has really dissapointed her.
Can you not remember how excited you were when you found the horse you think you are going to buy you cannot sleep with excitement, you start planning, imagining grooming , how they will settle , how they will feel to ride at home etc etc or is it just me ( and I suspect the op ).
I too would have been devistated if this had happened to me and no lea840 I wouldn't answer your questions either!

The dealer did let the op down, unless off course the op is lieing which I doubt. Even if there is another side to the story as we are told there was a verbal contract which should not have been broken.

And if the op wants to go down the legal route that is her buisness and not ours.

Whatever she chooses I wish her well and hope she finds a suitable horse.
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This.............I wouldn't have been answering any questions either lea840, you could be anyone including someone to do with the dealer trying to muddy the waters for OP (not saying you are but it is an anonymous forum after all). Why would you worry about what someone on here says if you have a solicitor specialising in both equine and contract law giving you advice. OP, I hope you find the horse of your dreams, only you can decide if it is worth pursuing this through the courts and, if you do, I wish you well.
 
Amaranta said:
Sorry but I fail to see what is intelligent about likening the OP to a fart in a cullender :confused:

You did not question but demanded answers - there is a difference!

Whilst I would not presume to question the accuracy of your statements, I do feel that your delivery style is somewhat lacking in empathy.
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As previously stated, I do feel for her but at the end of the day all we were getting was half a tale... and one which was about to name and shame a dealer who may not have even done anything wrong...

I did question back at Q38 but she ignored me... so I asked her again at Q116 I dont see the problem with that?

She was asking for advice and I gave her the answer... there was more than enough empathy on this post from everyone...
 
PoppyAnderson said:
Lea840, I've probably missed it somewhere but I don't remember the OP saying the dealer is a 'she'. Like I say, the OP probably has and I've just not picked it up.
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She says it in the very first post... and her second post and several others after that... Have you even read this thread lol :D
 
lea840 said:
As previously stated, I do feel for her but at the end of the day all we were getting was half a tale... and one which was about to name and shame a dealer who may not have even done anything wrong...

I did question back at Q38 but she ignored me... so I asked her again at Q116 I dont see the problem with that?

She was asking for advice and I gave her the answer... there was more than enough empathy on this post from everyone...
Click to expand...


How do you know we were only getting half a tale, I haven't seen anywhere that OP has changed any of her experiences with this dealer. Do you know something we don't or are you just assuming that there must be more to it?
 
hch4971 said:
How do you know we were only getting half a tale, I haven't seen anywhere that OP has changed any of her experiences with this dealer. Do you know something we don't or are you just assuming that there must be more to it?
Click to expand...

Of course we are only getting half a tale as there are two sides to every story and no one has heard the dealers side, there seems to be a few people who know the dealer on here (I'm not one of them... you suspicious minded people lol ) but somethings just not adding up here from the comments that people have made who actually know the dealer.

So we have only had half a tale...
 
lea840 said:
Of course we are only getting half a tale as there are two sides to every story and no one has heard the dealers side, there seems to be a few people who know the dealer on here (I'm not one of them... you suspicious minded people lol ) but somethings just not adding up here from the comments that people have made who actually know the dealer.

So we have only had half a tale...
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The OP has stated quite clearly that the dealer people assumed it was is in fact NOT the dealer in question, so no, people do not actually know the dealer.
 
Whether people think they know the dealer or not isnt the issue here. The issue is that there are always two sides to any tale... we are hearing just one. That was all I meant by having only half a story...
 
I have no interest in horses (as you can tell from my name), I have just been shown this thread by a friend and have been stuck halfway between laughing and crying at some of the comments which have been written. I am writing this in an attempt to ensure that other people who may find themselves in a similar situation are aware of their rights and can act quickly and promptly to ensure that they can have the horse which they have agreed to buy and also to correct number of misconceptions which been asserted on this page.

In the case of the OP the first thing to consider is whether there was a contract. A verbel contract is just as valid as a written one for anything ther than the transfer of an interest in land which would require writing under the Law of Property (Miscellenous Provisions) Act 1989 s.2. For a valid contract you need a valid offer and acceptance (I am not sure where the point about communicating the acceptance comes from, I would consider that part of a valid acceptance), valuable consideration, certainty and an intention to create legal relations.

In this case the offer and acceptance can be found in the text massages and will be present at the time where they stop negotiating and agree a price. Unfortunately I haven't seen the texts, nor would expect to, the information is useful evidence and it would be stupid for the OP to post it in public like this.

Assuming there is a valid offer and acceptance the next point is whether there is consideration. Consideration, for those of you who don't do law, is essentially an exchange in promises. For example I would promise to give you £5000 if you promise to give me a car, without both promises the contract cannot bind either party. In this case, contrary to what has been said, there is valid consideration. The OP has promised to give the dealer money and a horse in return for the dealer to promising to give her the horse. It is not relevent whether the consideration is to given now or in a week or 10 years from now, what matters is that their is a mutually enforceable contract (fyi for the person who posted from Scotland, Scots law has no equivalent of consideration and the contract would be binding even if it was for nothing in return).

The points about certainty and intention to create legal relations can also be dealt with reatively briefly. Assuming the text messages show over and acceptance, the certainty will be there with them. There will be a certain price and the horses concerned are identified. There is also likely to be intention to create legal relations on the basis that there is a presumption in business matters that any dealings with a consumer intends to create legal relations and also that the parties agreed to arrange for travel expenses. There is therefore a contract in this case.

Once it is established that there is a contract it is necessary to consider the effect of the contract. Because this is a part exchange agreement (and not strictly a sale), the contract will be covered by Section 11A of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 which deals with contracts for the transfer of property. That said the substantive provisions are taken directly out of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 so it is easier to use this act as that is the one which would apply in future situations where there is no part exchange (the provisions in the Supply of Goods and Sercices Act are s.11A-F).

Section 18 rule 1 state that once there is a contract for the sale of specefic goods in a deliverable state property will pass to the buyer. This essentially means that as soon as there was a contract betwee the OP and the dealer the OP owned the horse in law. AT THAT POINT THE HORSE BELONGED TO THE OP AND NOT TO THE DEALER. This means that the dealer had no right to sell the horse to a third party and that sale was legally deficient.

This means that the OP is stil the owner of the horse and has a right to sue the third party for conversion of the Horse (essentially getting her horse back to her yard) subject to an exception where the third party would have to show that they were completely unaware of the OP.

Apologies for writing such a long statemnt but I believe this to be the law which applies to the OP's case and that it is dangerous for people to come onto a forum like this with incorrect knowledge holding themselves to have legal knowlege. I of course have to say that under the principle in Hedley Byrne v Heller I cannot except any liability for anybody who relies on this information (I would have thought anyone who holds themselves out to have any legal knowledge would make a similar disclaimer) but this is the law as it stands.

I would advise those people who claim that this happens all the time and she should chalk it up to experience to consider there rights and in this scenario and to act quickly to ensure that they get the horse they were promised. I would advise any dealers who may participate in this practice that doing so may result not only in the original contractor getting the horse but also the third party claiming damages against them for any loss they have suffered.

If you have read this far thank you, if not your not reading this anyway so it's alright, I know law can be boring. I just thought I would let people know what the law actually says :D
 
lea840 said:
Of course we are only getting half a tale as there are two sides to every story and no one has heard the dealers side, there seems to be a few people who know the dealer on here (I'm not one of them... you suspicious minded people lol ) but somethings just not adding up here from the comments that people have made who actually know the dealer.

So we have only had half a tale...
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But just supposing that as the OP has texts from the dealer as she says, regarding the sale, the deposit, the PX and the transport then what more can there be to know? Would that not show the 'friend' of the dealer is lying? Why is it that we always have to doubt that someone is telling the truth when they post on here for advice or support and that when some person suddenly comes up with an alternative 'story' we are only too happy to believe them over the OP?
 
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