Agression in dogs (older dog towards puppy) Help please?

Tinker_Belle

Tinker_Belle

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As some of you know, we've got a Field Spaniel & recently, a Red Setter pup.

Sam (Field Spaniel) came to us about 14 or so months ago from our local rescue centre. He was a year old or thereabouts when we got him & his nature is spot on in every way.
He has definitely been abused as he used to cower at the slightest movement when we first got him & he is also food possessive if he thinks he can get away with it.

He is very trusting of us now & we are aware of his behaviour around food so are always careful to make sure this isn't aggravated.

Back in the Summer we got Harley (the Red Setter). Harley is now around four months old & both he & Sam get on very well.
Harley has learned to keep away from Sam when Sam is eating.

The problem is, Sam has a nasty habit of turning on Harley in a very aggressive manner & in a seemingly completely unprovoked way.

It happened last night again. Both dogs were in the hallway/living room, all was well when all of a sudden, Sam went for Harley & as a result, has caused a nasty bite right across Harley's muzzle & nose.
Sam has previously bitten him near Harley's eye & caused a nasty wound that was only millimetres from Harley losing his eye.


They are both treated equally, Both recieve the same amount of fuss, if one gets a treat then so does the other. They are both fed at the same time & they are fed a little distance from each other to minimise any problems. The house rules apply to both of them & apart from this aggressive behaviour in Sam, they are inseperable.

I'm really quite concerned about it because when Sam goes for Harley, it isn't just a nip but a quite nasty attack. Sam won't warn Harley or anything like that but immediately go to bite him. He doesn't just do it once & leave it, he has had to be pulled away from Harley before.

It's almost like a typical Jekyll & Hyde response in Sam.
Harley is just a puppy though & he gets so scared when Sam does bite him that Harley wets himself
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Sam is not like it with humans & this is the only flaw in his character. I've never seen any hint of nastiness before.

Can anybody help with this or know of the best way to handle before Harley gets seriously hurt?
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Thanks in advance for any advice or information xxx
 
we've recently got a new cocker who was due to be destroyed for aggression - he;s a 2yr old...

we've cured it by having a definate hierarchy in the 'family' - the old spangle is the top dog - then the lab - then the cocker - everything we do is in this order - being let through doors, being fed, being fussed etc etc

initially the cocker attacked the other dogs as he was not used to being the bottom of the pile - whenever he did that we growled and pinned him to the floor until he looked away - then sent him away and made a huge fuss of the dog he attacked - he was also always made to yeild/sent away when the other dogs came near - even if we were fussing him now if one of our other dogs came near he has to yeild. he's now totally cured and they all snuggle up together and he's far happier being bottom of the pack

but - that was easy as he was a younger new dog so fitted at the bottom v easily - whereas your oler dog is the aggressive one... you say you give them both equal attention but maybe this is the problem? we def give attention amounts that go with the hierarchy - once old spangle is PTS lab will be top dog and so on... sounds like older dog is a bit confused as to his 'place' in your family if that makes sense? and uses aggression to show it as he maybe feel threatened by the pup being there

IMVHO your older dog needs to know he's doing wrong - but maybe also allowed to be th top dog so he feels more confident in his place? - we reacted immediately (our only occured when we were near - was a dominance/jealously thing - esp as cocker had been single dog before) so we could catch it really easily.

i dunno - i'm no dog trainer by any stretch of the imagination - yup we've had 3 rescues but i think a lot of retraining them has maybe been luck! lol
 

It does make sense what you say about pecking order. And Sam does still get certain privileges like certain treats that he has always had & if one of us is making a fuss of Sam & Harley comes over then it's Harley who will get sent away rather than the attention diverted from Sam.

I just don't know how to handle it because as I say, there is no warning.

As for discipline when Sam does it, he'll get a smack on the bum & sent away to lay down away from everyone else & ignored for a while.
He knows he's done wrong when he does it as the immediately after he's done it, Sam will avoid eye contact with you at all costs & tend to slink away from your slightly.

To be honest, the ferocity of Sam when he does it frightens me. Especially as Harley is so young still.
 

Thanks CC. I just read the original post & Cayla's reply & just to add, Sam is castrated and treats are only given when they are both sat down & Sam is given his first as we know he is food possesive & so giving Harley his treat first would (I imagine) aggravate that.

I shall have a proper read of the thread but Cayla, if you are reading this any advice would be greatly appreciated as I know you're very experienced with dogs & their behavioural issues etc.

Thanks.
 

Also, when Sam is sent away to lay in the hall from everyone after these aggressive periods, it is for about an hour & afer that he will be allowed to come back to lay down & join everyone in the living room.

I don't like hitting Sam either (hence why he's only smacked on the bum & never hit with anything beyond the palm of a hand) but the twice he has caused nasty injuries to Harley it's the only thing I could think of to get the message through to Sam.
 
I don't disagree with other methods of the hierachy stuff but I personally don't use them and I don't encourage a top dog as to speak, I see that as my job, so if a dog shows aggression or displays unwanted behaviour I am to one they must answer too it's not the job of another dog which is potentially what you can create by making a pack leader, I have seen this with a rotti male, the lady made him her top dog and he killed 2 dogs in the family
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granted he was a big powerful breed, but when she asked my opinion I told her I personally would not do that, esp if dogs are left unsupervised when you leave them sometimes as this is when the damage can be done via the more dominant dog if a situation occurs.

You need to watch for that body language, i.e curl of the lip, slow movement towards the puppy and get up and give him your all, for example I would be up like a shot and be firmly giving a "YOU DARE" he would also as u do get a smacked arse and removed even if he was warning the dog and had not even gone for him at that stage, u really need to show him, it's u he cannot get past, to the point where he even thinks about atacking him, he will look to see where u or a family members are at the time........because he knows what the consiquence is your angry wrath.

You need to nip it in the bud now before the puppy becomes more aprehensive and I would advise u crate the puppy when u are out, the aggressor sounds like a bit of a grouch, it's NOT uncommon for older dogs to act like this esp if they want to send a clear message they don't want the dog sitting, passing or near them at anyone time, and when the puppy moves sharpish the aggressor has got a result(but it's not his space to decide) it's your, so claim it and remove him, whislt a family member does this someone else distract the puppy so he does not begin to dread the whole situation and become even more aprehensive.

Like I said im not into the whole feed first, treat first, let in the door first, aslong as my dogs respect my last word the balance remains calm, and with ten dogs I must say (touch wood) I have never had a fight/dominance issue within it, I do commonly get asked which is my dominant/pack leader.......I always answer ME
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Edited to say it's not uncommon for the older dog to be a grouch towards a puppy.......
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I had previously written it's uncommon for an older dog to pretty much be an old t!at bag....yeah right
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Im sure CC could have picked up on that an corrected me
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she likes me to look like a spiv you know
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Hi Cayla. Thanks for that. The only reason Sam gets treats first is because when Harley gets given his, I don't want to risk Sam turning on him.

As for the warning signs, that is half the problem. There aren't any. One second Sam will be lead down & the next, Harley will walk past & Sam goes from relaxed & lead down to snarling & biting Harley in literally, the blink of an eye.

If there was warning it would be easier to clamp down on him. The times I have seen him look like he might bite Harley I have told him off.

It doesn't seem to happen when we're out, just when the family is around which makes me wonder if it could be a territorial thing with Sam?
He is a very protective dog & when we first had him, he would bark at my mum & stepdad if they cuddled. To the point where he'd jump between them to stop them cuddling.

He doesn't do it anymore as we've trained him out of it but I'm wondering if that might have any bearing on it?
 
If he is attacking the puppy when he comes near u, u need to send him away from you, dont allow him to sit beside you.......until u sort the issue I would keep them in the same room as much as poss with you when u are jsut lazing around the house, so you can reprimand.......as in my other post human presence is one of the most common fight factors in dogs, so you are probably right re the jelously, and him wanting to warn thing away from what he deams his, even if it's u or a family member.

Make a point of fussing and encouraging the puppy to come to you and reprimand any over selous behaviour the older dog shows.
Re the treats.......I would literally send im away and not give him any if he attacks the puppy.
If I had my dogs around me, and was randomly dishing out treats and one attacked the other, they would get a cracked back side and I would make them go to ther bed and watch the rest getting treats.

Do some little exercises so u can reprimand him if his aggression shows i.e playing with puppy or giving treats out, the more u put him in his place the less likely he is to do it.
 

Ok. I'll keep that in mind & try & be really eagle eyed where Sam is concerned.

Thankfully, Harley is not put off approaching any of the family & an hour or so after Sam has bitten him, he is wary but doesn't mind being around Sam.

Any growling Sam does is reprimanded too so I guess we'll just have to keep an extremely close eye on him.

Thanks for all the advice & fingers crossed, Sam will change his behaviour!
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xx
 
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