Agricultural Tenancy Land

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GaryTheDonkey

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We are looking to purchase a property with land to keep horses on and we really like the look of a house that has just come on the market, perfect location etc. however, the land is subject to a ‘protected agricultural tenancy’ (currently grazed by sheep). Does anyone know whether it would be possible to get out of the tenancy agreement, and how difficult it would be to do so? Would we then struggle to get planning permission for stables etc? Obviously I would need to talk to a solicitor/land agent but I’m trying to work out if it’s worth even going to view the property in the first place. TIA!
 
I have 2 horses and 1 pony on agricultural land, with 3 stables on skids. I do also have sheep grazing the land as well.

Are you sure it isn’t already rented out to the sheep farmer on a protected tenancy ? The farmer may let you graze the horses in with the sheep if you are friendly with him :)
 
Thanks for your reply. Yes, that’s what I mean, I’m wondering whether it would be possible to terminate the tenancy. Obviously we wouldn’t buy a house without the security of land for our horses.

A quick google suggests a minimum of 12 months notice needs to be given, which would be fine as it would probably take that long to renovate the house and move in. But I’m concerned that there’s even more to it than just giving notice.
 
The estate agent should be able to tell you when the tenancy expires.

I have my 3 grazing the field and then the farmer who rented it prior to me, I now also rent it out to him, so we share the field. I get income and the horses are surprisingly more settled having a group of sheep with them.

You have to be careful if you do give notice and it is a long time , the farmer may be bitter.
 
Not keen on the idea of sharing the land, too many complications. Just things like having our dogs with us when we do the horses, or if we want to fence off separate areas. I know I need to contact a solicitor, just a shame we’ve got 4 days of bank holiday!
 
The EA should have the full details. Read them yourself first.
Some down here in the west are extremely restrictive.
 
GaryTheDonkey said:
We are looking to purchase a property with land to keep horses on and we really like the look of a house that has just come on the market, perfect location etc. however, the land is subject to a ‘protected agricultural tenancy’ (currently grazed by sheep). Does anyone know whether it would be possible to get out of the tenancy agreement, and how difficult it would be to do so? Would we then struggle to get planning permission for stables etc? Obviously I would need to talk to a solicitor/land agent but I’m trying to work out if it’s worth even going to view the property in the first place. TIA!
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A Protected Agricultural Tenancy is exactly that - protected. These are usually older and long standing tenancy contracts, not uncommonly renewed by successive generations of farmers. They have considerably more security and rights.
Which means that turfing out your farming tenant (this being part of his /her livelihood, and part of British agricultural production more generally) is not a simple matter of giving them notice; nor just refusing to renew their tenure at the end of a set contractual period (as with a newer Farm Business Tenancy).
You may well be able to offer them a cash sum to relinquish their tenancy, that is often successful with older tenants; or compensation/ reduction in rent to relinquish part of the land; or simply to allow your horses to graze alongside their sheep, while they continue their farming and maintenance as before.
You will need to discuss the current contract with whoever the tenant is - and vendor may already have a good idea whether they’d be amenable - then confirm any changed arrangement with a solicitor.
Re the agricultural land status, if your horses graze alongside sheep or agri animals and the majority use thereby remains agricultural, unlikely to be any issue.
As soon as it becomes solely Equine use, or you want to start riding on it etc, you will need to apply for change of land use.
Good luck.
 
GaryTheDonkey said:
Not keen on the idea of sharing the land, too many complications. Just things like having our dogs with us when we do the horses, or if we want to fence off separate areas. I know I need to contact a solicitor, just a shame we’ve got 4 days of bank holiday!
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If you’ve got dogs that aren’t instantly biddable, with neighbouring livestock, sheep etc, I should think again about any such move.
The legislation has just tightened up very considerably, you owe it to your dogs even if don’t give a damn about other creatures’ well-being.
 
Exasperated said:
A Protected Agricultural Tenancy is exactly that - protected. These are usually older and long standing tenancy contracts, not uncommonly renewed by successive generations of farmers. They have considerably more security and rights.
Which means that turfing out your farming tenant (this being part of his /her livelihood, and part of British agricultural production more generally) is not a simple matter of giving them notice; nor just refusing to renew their tenure at the end of a set contractual period (as with a newer Farm Business Tenancy).
You may well be able to offer them a cash sum to relinquish their tenancy, that is often successful with older tenants; or compensation/ reduction in rent to relinquish part of the land; or simply to allow your horses to graze alongside their sheep, while they continue their farming and maintenance as before.
You will need to discuss the current contract with whoever the tenant is - and vendor may already have a good idea whether they’d be amenable - then confirm any changed arrangement with a solicitor.
Re the agricultural land status, if your horses graze alongside sheep or agri animals and the majority use thereby remains agricultural, unlikely to be any issue.
As soon as it becomes solely Equine use, or you want to start riding on it etc, you will need to apply for change of land use.
Good luck.
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Yes I understand the legislation changed in 1995 to make it less restrictive, and more aligned to other business tenancies. Unfortunately this tenancy pre-dates that.
 
Exasperated said:
If you’ve got dogs that aren’t instantly biddable, with neighbouring livestock, sheep etc, I should think again about any such move.
The legislation has just tightened up very considerably, you owe it to your dogs even if don’t give a damn about other creatures’ well-being.
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Goodness. I seem to have hit a nerve with you but I don’t think I deserve such an attack. My gundogd are highly trained thanks, and were brought up around our own pet sheep so are very trustworthy. However, out of courtesy I would never allow them to roam amongst someone else’s livestock. That ok with you?
 
GaryTheDonkey said:
Goodness. I seem to have hit a nerve with you but I don’t think I deserve such an attack. My gundogd are highly trained thanks, and were brought up around our own pet sheep so are very trustworthy. However, out of courtesy I would never allow them to roam amongst someone else’s livestock. That ok with you?
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Ignore them. They enjoy a row.
 
GaryTheDonkey said:
Not keen on the idea of sharing the land, too many complications. Just things like having our dogs with us when we do the horses, or if we want to fence off separate areas. I know I need to contact a solicitor, just a shame we’ve got 4 days of bank holiday!
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I do as I please and the farmer is grateful he has sheep grazing (we are good friends )

But if you are wanting to graze your own sheep then it would be complicated in terms of bio security and CPH’s.
 
GaryTheDonkey said:
Yes I understand the legislation changed in 1995 to make it less restrictive, and more aligned to other business tenancies. Unfortunately this tenancy pre-dates that.
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Yes, it will do, you really need to work with them - unless want a very uncomfortable relationship with people who will regularly be around your property (awful) - and if they don’t seem amenable to reasonable suggestions, find somewhere more suitable to enjoy.
If they proved very bad tenants, who fail in their contractual agreements, could winkle them out that way, but wouldn’t be a nice start to your new life and require legally proving.
Tbh, co grazing horses and sheep with someone who knows and maintains your fields might save you a lot of hassle, but not if you can’t get on.
 
I know well the advantages of grazing horses with sheep, but presumably this would be entirely at the discretion of the tenant farmer. So it’s not a basis on which to buy a property. If the tenancy is effectively unbreakable we will obviously need to keep looking.
 
GaryTheDonkey said:
I know well the advantages of grazing horses with sheep, but presumably this would be entirely at the discretion of the tenant farmer. So it’s not a basis on which to buy a property. If the tenancy is effectively unbreakable we will obviously need to keep looking.
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Fair enough
PATs aren’t unbreakable, nor unchangeable (as earlier), my family needed to do this with a highly unsatisfactory and thoroughly disagreeable long term PATenant some years ago, but very unlikely to be a quick fix or straightforward. If you want complete control and uncomplicated, yes, keep looking, but if everything else about the property is dreamy, be worth sounding them out.
The farmland value is likely to be cheaper with a sitting tenant, too.
 
Around here, land with protected agric tenancy is often 50-60% cheaper to buy than without such a tenancy. This alone tells me it is not easy to "break" this tenancy. We have a lot of such tenancies on council owned land, often in the family of farmers for generations and the farmer seems to have a lot more say than the owner around gates, access, etc. An interesting dispute currently ongoing near me where farmer vs landowner is playing out in public on Facebook due to landowner wanted to build a second property on the land, but despite haveing got planning approval it doesn't like it will ever be possible, as the tenant farmer says no.
 
Any property I’ve looked at with one, you need to be able to prove that you work in agriculture to buy it, I.e run it as a farm not have horses or houses on it.

The vendor can apply for it to be removed but that will mean a rise in purchase price as the property is then for sale on the open market.
 
HopOnTrot said:
Any property I’ve looked at with one, you need to be able to prove that you work in agriculture to buy it, I.e run it as a farm not have horses or houses on it.

The vendor can apply for it to be removed but that will mean a rise in purchase price as the property is then for sale on the open market.
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I think you must be thinking of an agricultural tie, this isn’t the same thing. The patch of land as a separate entity is being used by an existing tenant farmer under an agricultural holding tenancy.
 
HopOnTrot said:
Any property I’ve looked at with one, you need to be able to prove that you work in agriculture to buy it, I.e run it as a farm not have horses or houses on it.

The vendor can apply for it to be removed but that will mean a rise in purchase price as the property is then for sale on the open market.
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That’s interesting, do you mean an ‘agricultural clause’ or ‘agricultural tie’, on the property as a whole? That can make it very difficult to sell on the open market, but again, these can be legally removed - not easy, not cheap, but not wholly impossible. Whereabouts were you searching, please?
An existing PAT on the land (occasionally includes some of the buildings, maybe a barn) of a property that someone has purchased, would not allow that purchaser to farm that land without getting shut of the sitting PATenant. Or coming to some fresh, sharing, agreement with them.
 
If you are serious about this purchase, make sure you get a solicitor who specialises in house and land purchases and factor in the costs of changing from agricultural to equine use when you negotiate the purchase price. At the moment i am over £2000 in planners fees (because i didn't want to try completing the forms myself) and the council costs, to get a change of use for a field.
 
The vendor really needs to answer all of these questions. I'd at least get the basics off them (via the agent) before paying out for solicitors. If you can't serve notice on the farmer easily then walk away.
 
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Many years ago now someone I knew inherited a farm with a long standing tenant who was on a peppercorn rent. They wanted to use the land themselves but totally failed to get the tenant out and lost a lot of money trying. Couldn't even revise the rent.
 
Errin Paddywack said:
Many years ago now someone I knew inherited a farm with a long standing tenant who was on a peppercorn rent. They wanted to use the land themselves but totally failed to get the tenant out and lost a lot of money trying. Couldn't even revise the rent.
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Can be tricky, particularly if tenant also has residential rights to, say, a farm cottage.
Which probably is as it should be, because people should not be turned out of their homes or out of their livelihoods at whim of some incomer with a bit of city-money, or who wants to make more money from holiday lets, ‘diversifications’ etc.
The real problems are where the forever tenant basically isn’t a good one, doesn’t look after the land or property as per agreement, is permanently late with rent, and is downright unpleasant to one and all. My family had this problem: whereas tenant’s father and grandfather had been brilliant (and very good friends), he had MI issues, was threatening violence against users of the footpath, all sorts of management neglect for years and years, clearly wasn’t coping, and was ultimately bought out - bribe - to avoid everything being dragged out in court.
But remember, there are appallingly neglectful landlords, too, including some of the elite estates.
 
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