ahh Barefoot / Unshod again !!

[ferrador]

please dont try and accuse me of being a troll , if you took note of other posting on a lot of threads you will see why laura 1812 twelve agrees with what i say . your actions are a typical turn the facts around bua cynical tactic
chris

 

[AndySpooner]

Just because your view is different to mine, I don't think you are a troll, but, it is my duty to try to convince you that I'm right. Lol.

 

[ferrador]

good one LOL
chris
ps your wrong

 

[Laura1812]

Ferrador, i'm not sure I agree with everything you say, but I do agree some horses are better off in shoes and a lot more are better off without.

I have seen some very scarily shod feet and recently i saw some very scarily trimmed feet.

I would rather see a well shod horse then a poorly trimmed one, and if it wasn't for barefoot my navicular horse would now be dead rather than hacking around the bridle paths and on the beach.

 

[ferrador]

unfortunately there are some bad tradesman in all professions ,farriers and trimmers included . people should not tar all farriers or trimmers with the same brush , this is what is happening with the bua followers around the world and some farriers (tend to be older ones) are closing rank and between the pair of them animosity is prevailing .
chris

 

[Oberon]

I don't think it helps when farriers come on forums and start name calling or being rude. I have witnessed both this week. It isn't how I would expect a professional person to behave, but perhaps that's just me.

 

[cptrayes]

I did not call YOU a troll Ferrador, I said that I had known plenty of trolls use the term BUA in order to upset people. However, if you have used it the same way, then you are a troll, who are by definition people who post things which do not advance a discussion or help anyone and are designed to cause reaction and upset. If you intended no upset by using the term, then you are not a troll. Simples.

 

[brucea]

Need to keep it civil chaps. No need for name calling or emotuve phrases like BUA which some folks may find offensive

The important thing is to do what is right for the horse. Whether that is bare or shoeing, and be able to articulate asnd justify why you are doing what you are doing.

 

[foxy1]

 

[Dizzle]

barefoot uber allis, spelling might not be correct , it basically means barefoot at all cost , or at least thats how it translates in my part of the world
chris

I've never heard of that school of trimming, could you post a link?

Oh hang on, I've just googled it, it appears to be a derogatory term coined by farriers?

Personally I like to go for doing the best for my horse and at the moment that is minimising the concussive effects on the joints of riding on the road by using the natural shock absorption properties of the hoof.

 

[maggiesmum]

ferrador - I think part of the problem is caused by comments such as "the barefoot brigade are on the whole extremists" you tar us all (or ok, the majority of us) with the same brush but take offence when anyone makes a similar comment with regards to farriers.

It is unreasonable to expect to have it all your own way.
Personally I think that lots of people with barefoot horses have gone down that particular road because they have had the misfortune of crossing paths with the bad apples of the industry, therefore experience has made many of us untrusting so we have gone away and learnt how to take best care of our horses feet ourselves, we have researched and read and asked questions and are no longer prepared to simply hand over the responsibility of our horse to someone else anymore. I agree that there are lots of very good farriers out there but sadly there are lots of very bad ones too - how many horse owners can tell the difference??

At the end of the day farriers and trimmers should all want the same goal in life - sound healthy horses, any "professional's" making inflammatory or offensive comments on a public forum probably need to get out more!

 

[Kallibear]

if a farrier attends to a horse and it goes footy you scream and shout , yet it is quite acceptable for you you to remove shoes and butcher its feet and then say it is normal if it goes lame for weeks because it is going through a transition period

I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing? Or possibly you have come across Strasser trimming? Thankfully it never caught on in the Uk and I don't know anyone who uses that method. I'd personally shot a Strasser trimmer on sight before they got within 20ft of my horse!

God knows what you'e come across in Spain (where horse welfare isn't exactly the best in any field) but, for normal 'barefooters' , chopping the foot up and making the horse sore is totally unacceptable. You must now be aware of that and insisting all 'barefoot-er' are the same is childish as well as insulting.

As other said, of course a horse who is used to have bit of metal nailed to their feet for ages is going to sensitive on stoney rough ground to begin with. That's normal, to be expected and the only cruel part would be to force the horse to do so without hoof protection (i.e boots).

You cannot possibly say that a horse would naturally and inherently lame without shoes on: that damage to their feet only comes from years of shoeing! Which is only yet another reason to have to shoes off and let the feet heal and devlope.

 

[Kallibear]

And P.S to the OP - get your horse a pair of Easyboot Gloves. I've just bought a pair for my horse and they're BRILLIANT! So so easy to put on, really do fit like a glove (even if the advertised size is nothing like the actual size of your horses feet) and stay on (in fact they're bloody difficult to get off!). Once you've tried them you'll wonder why you ever bothered with metal shoes in the first place!

 

[Janette]

My horses feet have been a lot healthier without shoes for the last year, than with shoes for the preceding 5 years.
Her feet are NOT butchered! Object to that. Her feet are now open and healthy, rather than thrushy because of contracted heels due to shoes!

OP - I started with hinds off, and then the rest came off as well. For us, there was no lameness and she is totally sound over stony ground.
It's still £35 every 6-8 weeks.....but it's worth it.

 

[mrdarcy]

Went to a new client yesterday. Horse has been shod in front for years but unshod behind for same length of time. I took off the front shoes. Then compared the feet. The hinds were beautiful - healthy, big frogs, nice wide heels, concave sole, good quality hoof wall and well developed digital cushion. The fronts had very poor quality hoof wall, in fact no hoof wall at the toe because the previous farrier had rasped it back to the white line, contracted heels, flat soles and much smaller, narrower frogs than the hinds.

So why was there such a difference in quality between the fronts and the backs? Same horse, doing the same work, fed the same diet, living in the same environment. The only difference being the shoes. How anyone can claim shoes don't compromise hoof health is beyond me - the evidence is right there!

 

[AndySpooner]

I think that you have answered your own question here. Lol.

Lots here can tell you more than I, but when you put a metal shoe on the foot, the immidiate effect is to stop the hoof from flexing which it does on every step, this in turn assists the blood flow round the hoof, and there is some suggestion that the blood flow is increased.

Thermal imaging shows that the unshod hoof is in fact warmer than a shod hoof which supports the increase in blood flow.

Obviously if a limb is not getting the correct amount of blood, over years in most cases, one would expect some deterioration in the hoof. Obviously this is just what you can see externally, the bones and lamina etc within the hoof will also suffer in the same way, which may explain a lot of the pre navicular and navicular diagnosies. If these bones are being deprived of an adequate blood flow then they too will suffer.

 

[brucea]

Always, when I have any doubts about it being the right thing to have done - I just dig out this picture

6 months change to the hoof - this is the shoe that came off placed at the point it would be.

Is he 100% happy over all terrain? Almost, but not quite. He is 100% with boots, and he gets the benefit of being bare for 99.5% of the time.

I think the simple fact that is often overlooked is that barefoot is about so much more than no shoes, and folks who tend to do barefoot seriously (like me) have taken the time to research, read, take training courses, make changes to their horses' regime and diet...so perhaps part of the emotive response behind the defense of shoes is a reaction against the committment that needs to be made to be successful without them.

The barefoot "industry" as a whole understands the holistic picture - I am not convinced that the farriery industry as a whole does.

 

[ferrador]

the farriery industry definitely needs a kick up the arse i cannot argue that but i also think the trimmers need regulating on the same basis as farriers, they should be be working together not against each other , but that is my silly ideal
chris

 

[Andalusianlover]

thanks ferrador !

It's just after reading all the threads on here about going barefoot I feel I am now going to be added to the group who think I am doing it because it's " fashionable " ATM.

I just don't see what all the fuss is about really ? ;-)

Stuff that!

I took my horses back shoes off two years ago at this time of year, like you, to save money. He did so well his front ones came off soon after.

Two years on he still has no shoes on. I compete in all disciplines and dont put shoes on so he has more grip. He has more grip because he's unshod.

He is still seen by my farrier who looks at his feet swears at me and doesnt touch him (clever horse self trims so to speak) Saved me a blinkin fortune.

If people saw me in my smelly horse gear they would realise I dont do anything because its fashionable!

 

[Andalusianlover]

Always, when I have any doubts about it being the right thing to have done - I just dig out this picture

6 months change to the hoof - this is the shoe that came off placed at the point it would be.

Is he 100% happy over all terrain? Almost, but not quite. He is 100% with boots, and he gets the benefit of being bare for 99.5% of the time.

I think the simple fact that is often overlooked is that barefoot is about so much more than no shoes, and folks who tend to do barefoot seriously (like me) have taken the time to research, read, take training courses, make changes to their horses' regime and diet...so perhaps part of the emotive response behind the defense of shoes is a reaction against the committment that needs to be made to be successful without them.

The barefoot "industry" as a whole understands the holistic picture - I am not convinced that the farriery industry as a whole does.

What I dont quite understand is why all you barefoot peeps feel the need to change their horses diet have their horse trimmed specifically and only by a barefoot trimmer, give them loads of supplements and change their horses regime.

My horse is unshod and has been for two years, I havent changed his exercise regime or changed his diet or given him any extra supplements or changed from a farrier to a barefoot trimmer and he's as happy and sound as a pound. He does lots of roadwork, competes in all disciplines???????

 

[Kallibear]

What I dont quite understand is why all you barefoot peeps feel the need to change their horses diet have their horse trimmed specifically and only by a barefoot trimmer, give them loads of supplements and change their horses regime.

I don't do the middles ones but the former and later is very important. If you've already got the diet and management right then there's not need to change. And the 'correct' diet and managementi is just a natural one with the horse in mind, that many people do anyways. But sadly a vast number of, often very experienced, 'traditional' owners keep a horse in way that suits them but not nessesarily good for the horse.

I'm guessing you don't turn our horse out 24/7 on dairy grass and stuff him full of grain? Or have him standing in a damp stable for 16 hrs a day? Some horse could get away with that lifestyle and still have amazing feet but most are more sensitive and need a bit more thought. And therefore many owners 'need' their horses to have shoes on because they subject their horses to that kind of lifestyle (through ignorance or lack of choice).

My horses live out 24/7 on grass, but it's restricted all summer otherwise they get fat. They have adlib hayledge over the winter. They get no fancy supplements and they are trimmed by me and my farrier. But I use their ability to work barefoot as a barometer for their over all health.

 

[Laura1812]

the farriery industry definitely needs a kick up the arse i cannot argue that but i also think the trimmers need regulating on the same basis as farriers, they should be be working together not against each other , but that is my silly ideal
chris

I totally agree with you here - trimmers DO need regulating as I saw when i came across some butchered feet a few weeks ago

 

[soloequestrian]

What I dont quite understand is why all you barefoot peeps feel the need to change their horses diet have their horse trimmed specifically and only by a barefoot trimmer, give them loads of supplements and change their horses regime.

My horse is unshod and has been for two years, I havent changed his exercise regime or changed his diet or given him any extra supplements or changed from a farrier to a barefoot trimmer and he's as happy and sound as a pound. He does lots of roadwork, competes in all disciplines???????

Mine have all been bare for years. Last year I read about the 'barefoot mix' and talked to people about it, then put all three horses on it. They have all had a much tighter hoof growth this year - I've hardly had any flare to deal with - and the one who still had a broken back hp axis has grown in a foot that is at a much better angle.

 

[amandap]

What I dont quite understand is why all you barefoot peeps feel the need to change their horses diet have their horse trimmed specifically and only by a barefoot trimmer, give them loads of supplements and change their horses regime.

My horse is unshod and has been for two years, I havent changed his exercise regime or changed his diet or given him any extra supplements or changed from a farrier to a barefoot trimmer and he's as happy and sound as a pound. He does lots of roadwork, competes in all disciplines???.

I think many have moved to barefoot because things weren't right and just removing the shoes wasn't enough. It's then when you have to start looking at other reasons diet being probably the biggest cause of problems... you are what you eat as the saying goes.
Some have 'good' grass and a horse that can toterate their grass fine etc. and there are many who have removed the shoes and like you had no problems.
Many horses are on rye grasses and land that isn't even limed, so mineral balance etc. can be all to pot as well as local variations in deficiencies, magnesium being a notorius one.
Some Farriers contine with rasping sole and allowing heels to grow, trimming frog drastically and leaving a flat hoof wall etc. etc. which isn't good for a strong unprotected hoof. The roll being a very important part of a trim for a BF horse.

Some Farriers have completed BF 'Training' so for me that shows that many Farriers do do things differently from many Trimmers in a 'working' trim. Really a pasture trim should be the same but often isn't it seems.

 

[amandap]

I think the process of regulating Trimmers has begun and is ongoing isn't it? I know consultations and discussions have been going on...

 

[AndySpooner]

What I dont quite understand is why all you barefoot peeps feel the need to change their horses diet have their horse trimmed specifically and only by a barefoot trimmer, give them loads of supplements and change their horses regime.

My horse is unshod and has been for two years, I havent changed his exercise regime or changed his diet or given him any extra supplements or changed from a farrier to a barefoot trimmer and he's as happy and sound as a pound. He does lots of roadwork, competes in all disciplines???????

This really sums things up for me.

A horse unshod for two years without changing his diet or exercise regime, tells me his diet was right before, his exercise regime was right before, I think you said somewhere that the farrier looks at his feet and swears at you, then he is self maintaining his feet.

This is one very lucky horse, and you are a superb horseman.

 

[Kallibear]

I totally agree with you here - trimmers DO need regulating as I saw when i came across some butchered feet a few weeks ago

Ditto the agreement. It would also do the 'barefoot fraternity' the world of good as it would give some credability.

It may also help those (often farriers) tarring all trimmers with the same brush. I.E There are some pretty crap saddle fitters out there who do the horses backs horrible damaged. But it doesn't mean that all saddle fitters are crap and that Saddle Fitting should be wiped out. Same applies to barefoot trimmers. There are some very very good trimmers out there, as well as some crap. There are also some very crap farriers out there and some very good ones.

I still think that the biggest difference between farriers and barefoot trimmers (and the biggest cause if friction) is shoeing a horse is the FIRST resort (when a problem is encountered) for a farrier, and the LAST resort for a barefoot trimmer. And equally, having the shoes off is often the last resort for a farrier whilst it's the first for a barefoot trimmer..

That and many farriers are not willing/can't give a more holist approach and advice on foot health and many don't seem to be interested in (or know or, worse, care) how the horses management and diet affects their feet.

 

[Oberon]

What I dont quite understand is why all you barefoot peeps feel the need to change their horses diet have their horse trimmed specifically and only by a barefoot trimmer, give them loads of supplements and change their horses regime.

My horse is unshod and has been for two years, I havent changed his exercise regime or changed his diet or given him any extra supplements or changed from a farrier to a barefoot trimmer and he's as happy and sound as a pound. He does lots of roadwork, competes in all disciplines???????

Neither of my horses had a problem with diet but I changed from commercial mixes to a "barefoot diet" because it made sense to me.

I always fed a sensible diet, however since changing, I have noted a much better quality hoof growing.

After a while - when a new "low sugar, no ****" feed comes out, I look past the shiny packaging and take a good peer at the ingredients. Often what I am already feeding is in said new super dooper feed. All shiny and full of bumph on the packaging - and at twice the price I pay already......

 

[UKa]

Hey, havent read the full thread but wanted to say CONGRATULATIONS to being controversial and for looking closely what your horse really needs

 

[mrdarcy]

I think the process of regulating Trimmers has begun and is ongoing isn't it? I know consultations and discussions have been going on...

There are now LANTRA guidelines in place. The problem is the bureaucracy in setting up qualifications and becoming an awarding examining body. Complying with the LANTRA guidelines is the easy bit - the training I've had with the AANHCP easily comes up to the standards set - it's the government hoops you have to jump through to become an awarding examining body. So it's not for want of trying. All professional barefoot trimmers worth their salt wants the same thing - regulation and high standards.