Air jacket CO2 canister prices

cptrayes

cptrayes

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One of the things that puts me off buying an air jacket is the £18-20 cost of replacing the air canister.

Has anyone found an alternative supply? I can find all sorts of CO2 canisters online, none of them for more than a fiver or so. They are used in paintball guns, boat lifejackets, sodastream machines etc

I can't believe that HitAir and PointTwo's canisters are unique to them, it seems far more likely that the canister is a standard size and fixing and they are quadrupling the price to make a nice fat profit.

So - has anyone with one the jackets found an alternative supply????
 
Pearlsasinger said:
No idea, but how often are you intending to fall off?
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For a £15 price difference, and a company or two ripping off their entire customer base, I don't care if I only fall of once in a blue moon. And at my age I can't guarantee remembering to undo the darned thing before I dismount either :) !
 
IMO it would be inadvisable to try and find an alternative of these canisters. They are specificly made for these jackets, so best to keep to the right ones. I work in a saddlery and we sell the Point 2 jackets, you can also buy spare canisters, they are £17.50 each.
 
Derfette said:
IMO it would be inadvisable to try and find an alternative of these canisters. They are specificly made for these jackets, so best to keep to the right ones. I work in a saddlery and we sell the Point 2 jackets, you can also buy spare canisters, they are £17.50 each.
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I find it impossible to believe that the manufacturers of the jackets saw a market full of pressurized CO2 cannisters of different sizes and fixings, and went out and designed one completely different from any of the others which are made for, for example, life jackets.

I don't believe that they are made specifically for the jackets, and I'll eat my hat if identical specification canisters are not available without their branding.

Yes, they are £17.50 each for Point Two and £19.99 for Hit Air. The unbranded versions are £5 to £6, is that fair? I don't think so.

Can someone who has one of these jackets tell me what the canister says on it? How many CCs/grammes, whether it has a pressure stated, and whether it screws in or some other fixing?
 
cptrayes said:
I find it impossible to believe that the manufacturers of the jackets saw a market full of pressurized CO2 cannisters of different sizes and fixings, and went out and designed one completely different
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Do you? The automotive industry has been doing it for years by making fixings that are specific to a make a car, & requirre special sizes/shapes of tools.
 
Yes I do. They are a generic canister, as sold on the website pointed above at TWO for £6. Point Two relabel them with a sticky label. Hit Air don't even seem to do that.

And the reverse of your argument is actually now true. The entire automotive industry uses the same wiring standards, for example, and cars are manufactured to cost by using the same components from generic component suppliers. Which is why you can buy BMW/Merc etc spares, for example, much cheaper without the brand on if you look for them. I could quote you a thousand examples.

ps I've done a bit of research and apparently they ar 45g screw fixing. If I buy a jacket I will get some and test them.
 
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If you dismount properly as in don't leap off but take feet out if stirrups' leg over back of saddle etc then the jacket doesn't go off. They need 6 stone of weight against them to go off so it would take a very strong person to just pull it! But if u do find one can u let me know if it works as although I've only had to replace mine once so far I can envisage more in the future!
 
cptrayes said:
For a £15 price difference, and a company or two ripping off their entire customer base, I don't care if I only fall of once in a blue moon. And at my age I can't guarantee remembering to undo the darned thing before I dismount either :) !
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So what you are suggesting is that companies should spend thousands on research & development plus all the necessary safety certification, then shouldn't make a profit as this is "ripping off their entire customer base"

I run a small retail business, the general idea being that I source products, buy them, add a mark up & make a profit, which then has to be ploughed back in for more stock as well as paying for the overheads & paying me a wage to pay my bills, so actually then I should sell the stock at less than I paid so that I don't rip anyone off, & I haven't had such a massive initial outlay as the air jacket companies.

I would be careful about using a non branded cannister, if the jacket were to fail you would have no come back at all, & the jacket has passed the safety testing with that actual cannister, depends if you think its worth the risk.
 
kizzywiz said:
So what you are suggesting is that companies should spend thousands on research & development plus all the necessary safety certification, then shouldn't make a profit as this is "ripping off their entire customer base"

I run a small retail business, the general idea being that I source products, buy them, add a mark up & make a profit, which then has to be ploughed back in for more stock as well as paying for the overheads & paying me a wage to pay my bills, so actually then I should sell the stock at less than I paid so that I don't rip anyone off, & I haven't had such a massive initial outlay as the air jacket companies.

I would be careful about using a non branded cannister, if the jacket were to fail you would have no come back at all, & the jacket has passed the safety testing with that actual cannister, depends if you think its worth the risk.
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Don't you think £375 to £440 for the jacket reflects the development costs? I have no problem with retailers making profits or developers recovering their costs. But I am saying that where consummables cost only £3 to buy from other sources (who are themselves making a profit at that price) they are ripping off their customers by charging £20 for them.

It would be like Ford selling cars and telling people only Ford tyres will fit, and charging more than SIX TIMES the price for a Ford marked tyre than an identical Goodyear which will also fit fine.

The jacket manufacturers are trading on people's fear that these cartridges are not identical. I believe they are. When I get one I will ask my resident engineer to confirm that they are. If they are made of the same metal, weigh the same, are the same size exactly and contain the same weight of gas then they must be the same pressure, and they must be the same.

Yes, I think it's "worth the risk" in fact I think there probably IS no risk. The only difference in the two, I am sure, is a piece of paper that Point Two stick on them. When I get one, I'll let you know if I was wrong.
 
cptrayes said:
Don't you think £375 to £440 for the jacket reflects the development costs? I have no problem with retailers making profits or developers recovering their costs. But I am saying that where consummables cost only £3 to buy from other sources (who are themselves making a profit at that price) they are ripping off their customers by charging £20 for them.

It would be like Ford selling cars and telling people only Ford tyres will fit, and charging more than SIX TIMES the price for a Ford marked tyre than an identical Goodyear which will also fit fine.

The jacket manufacturers are trading on people's fear that these cartridges are not identical. I believe they are. When I get one I will ask my resident engineer to confirm that they are. If they are made of the same metal, weigh the same, are the same size exactly and contain the same weight of gas then they must be the same pressure, and they must be the same.

Yes, I think it's "worth the risk" in fact I think there probably IS no risk. The only difference in the two, I am sure, is a piece of paper that Point Two stick on them. When I get one, I'll let you know if I was wrong.
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From the RRP deduct 20% VAT & the wholesale price & you will find that the margin to the retailer is actually quite small, the airjacket company has to cover their import/manufaturing costs, tax, staff etc etc from the wholesale price. Therefore, they need to increase their profits with add ons, like the cannisters, or the jackets would have to be much more expensive. This is the same for any product, say a saddle where you buy new girth, stirrups etc.

If your alternative cannister fits & works fine, then great.
 
kizzywiz said:
From the RRP deduct 20% VAT & the wholesale price & you will find that the margin to the retailer is actually quite small, the airjacket company has to cover their import/manufaturing costs, tax, staff etc etc from the wholesale price. Therefore, they need to increase their profits with add ons, like the cannisters, or the jackets would have to be much more expensive. This is the same for any product, say a saddle where you buy new girth, stirrups etc.
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If that is the strategy then it will fail in a world where we have the internet and can spot the same product sold at one sixth of the price and then tell the world that we have found it.

It defies belief, for me, that the jackets are not making good on development costs at the price at which they are on sale, sorry. They are only a few airbags which are different shapes of the type of bags already made, like Cair and Flair in saddles for example. Plus a flimsy little cover and a very simple trigger mechanism that can be made in China for a few quid. There aren't even valves on the airbags, they are sealed by the ice which forms as the CO2 rushes into them, which then melts. The construction is really very simple. The major development costs were also incurred for the motorcycle versions from which they originated.

I believe that the price is so high mostly to recover the costs of safety certification for horse riding and the enormous amount of marketing that Point Two in particular have been doing to launch the product. If it's not high enough to give them a decent profit, then the way forward is not to pretend that a gas cartridge costing 1/6 the price is not identical to theirs except for a label, if that is what they are doing. I for one demand more honesty from a supplier than that.

ps for anyone buying a Hit Air I do not believe that the attachment to the saddle is safe. On their website it looks the same screw-type attachment that Point Two used to have until I sent them mine back when it failed to go off. The lanyard pulled free from the screw attachment with such force that the heat welded the plastic cover together! After that, they changed to a much safer clip fixing. If you buy a Hit Air, please buy some steel karabiners and tie them on permanently instead of using the screw thingy. You also need to check your D-rings regularly. Most of them are only attached to the saddle by a few staples and could themselves pull loose.
 
I have obtained a cartridge from a friend and my resident engineer tells me that it is identical to one I have found being sold at £3 each, including the thred size. There is a chance that the thread pitch is not the same, so I have ordered one and when it comes I will check that it is identical and that it screws in OK. If so, I'll let everyone know where to buy them - after I've bought a dozen to put in store for myself!
 
Thanks cptrayes, would be interesting to know, as i was looking at buying one of the jackets but as i ride upto 6 horses a day i assumed at first i would keep forgetting to unclip myself so loked at the fact of having a canister go off evry couple of days until it became automatic to undo.
But i found that the price of replacing the canisters was rather expensive, if you can source the exact same canisters for £3 i might then invest in a jacket
 
Update - they thread properly and fit perfectly, but the top is thicker than the top on the Point Two cartridge and the hammer will not pierce it. So for now, Point Two have us over a barrel as regards gas cartridge prices and we have to pay over £17 for them.

I wonder how long it will take them to work out that there is a queue of people who want a jacket but won't buy one because of how much a replacement gas cartridge costs? That's me and miss_bird for starters.
 
And me - I think it puts it out of reach of many ordinary riders who would love one for hacking but know they would forget to unclip it for the first few times. The initial outlay I dont mind, but husband would be well annoyed if it cost me that every time I went for a hack.
 
kizzywiz said:
I would be careful about using a non branded cannister, if the jacket were to fail you would have no come back at all, & the jacket has passed the safety testing with that actual cannister, depends if you think its worth the risk.
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^^this

i worked in a tack shop selling point 2 jackets and had a lady come in who had used a cheap non-branded canister, she came off out hunting, the lanyard attaching her to the saddle released, but the canister didn't go off and she spent over a week in intensive care.

apparently the specially made point 2 canisters are higher pressure, meaning the jacket will fully inflate at the 0.1 seconds advertised. also some of the cheaper canisters have a thicker covering over the entrance, which means its possible that the pin on the jacket would not burst the canister.

personally i would rather pay the £17.50 and know that what i have is properly tested
 
Apparantly the point 2 canisters go off in 0.1s but the cheaper ones won't go off for 1 sec and may not work with the jackets mechanism-according the the h+h advert. Both hitair and point 2 saying that. I don't know what the motorcylce jackets use, possibly something similar?
 
Just a warning the rider who events one of my horses for me had a crashing fall off her at an event last year....she was wearing an air jacket with one of these cheap canisters and it took about 60 seconds to inflate so had no benefit. Luckily she was not hurt but it has taught us all a lesson on the yard and we wouldn't risk buying the cheaper ones again!!
 
But doesn't it always seem the way that the assumption is that as horse owners we've got plenty of money? Chap in our local farm stores says for eg that fly spray manufacturers could make their product much cheaper (farmers wouldn't pay that price) but they know that we make sacrifices so that our horses can have stuff so they treat us as mugs!
 
Cheaper cannisters do not go off at all in some cases. One I tried as a test failed to puncture. It's not about the pressure, it's the same as long as the cannister weighs the same. 60 grams of CO2 in a cannister the same size will always be under the same pressure. But the seal is a different thickness and will either not puncture or only produce a tiny hole. The bike jackets should be the same, has anyone found bike cannisters of the right weight and size cheaper?
 
It doesn't however detract from the fact that us equestrians are being FORCED to buy the more expensive canisters with only the guarantee that it will work. In my opinion, Point Two should revise their extravagant prices. I have already payed £600 for the jacket so I shouldn't have to spend an extra £17 to use it.
 
600 for the jacket?! Where did you get that? Or did you go for a fancy colour? (in which case-17 a canister shouldn't be that bad..). You're looking maxium 60-70quid a season in canisters, not much in the scheme of things (and that woul dbe a bad season!)
If point two have a niche market they can charge what they want whilst people buy. I have never got the whole ' I want it cheaper because it SHOULD be cheaper and I want it' culture.
 
oliver.siddons said:
It doesn't however detract from the fact that us equestrians are being FORCED to buy the more expensive canisters with only the guarantee that it will work. In my opinion, Point Two should revise their extravagant prices. I have already payed £600 for the jacket so I shouldn't have to spend an extra £17 to use it.
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Point Two are in fact running a business, they have invested vast sums on research, testing & production of their product. As a retailer of Point Two there is actually not a huge profit margin on the cannisters, remember Point Two have to buy them & then sell them to the retailers who sell at RRP, sorry if you feel hard done by but people running businesses do have to make a profit, if the margin is insufficient then retailers will not buy products to sell, so the distributors will be left with them, so in Point Two's case all their investment would have been lost if they were unable to get retailers on board, they have to make that back before they can even make a profit at all.

I have just worked over 50 hours in the last 4 days running my tradestand at a BE event, & I am amazed at the number of people who expect to force the prices down, yesterday someone quibbled over a £3 pot of plaiting bands, people don't haggle at the till in Tesco so why expect me, Point Two or anyone else to sell things for less than they paid for it?
 
SusieT said:
600 for the jacket?! Where did you get that? Or did you go for a fancy colour? (in which case-17 a canister shouldn't be that bad..). You're looking maxium 60-70quid a season in canisters, not much in the scheme of things (and that woul dbe a bad season!)
If point two have a niche market they can charge what they want whilst people buy. I have never got the whole ' I want it cheaper because it SHOULD be cheaper and I want it' culture.
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It's the P2-RS (with built in Racesafe body protector).
 
kizzywiz said:
Point Two are in fact running a business, they have invested vast sums on research, testing & production of their product. As a retailer of Point Two there is actually not a huge profit margin on the cannisters, remember Point Two have to buy them & then sell them to the retailers who sell at RRP, sorry if you feel hard done by but people running businesses do have to make a profit, if the margin is insufficient then retailers will not buy products to sell, so the distributors will be left with them, so in Point Two's case all their investment would have been lost if they were unable to get retailers on board, they have to make that back before they can even make a profit at all.

I have just worked over 50 hours in the last 4 days running my tradestand at a BE event, & I am amazed at the number of people who expect to force the prices down, yesterday someone quibbled over a £3 pot of plaiting bands, people don't haggle at the till in Tesco so why expect me, Point Two or anyone else to sell things for less than they paid for it?
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I do understand that R&D is very important in order for the Point Two to be effective but the canister itself is not exactly a new concept. I find it (as many others do) very hard to realise how a canister can cost £17 even if they have to have them custom made.

I am all for quality and safety, but if I can purchase an inflatable sailing lifejacket canister for £3 I expect some similarity in price to an equestrian jacket canister.
 
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