Air jacket CO2 canister prices

oliver.siddons said:
I do understand that R&D is very important in order for the Point Two to be effective but the canister itself is not exactly a new concept. I find it (as many others do) very hard to realise how a canister can cost £17 even if they have to have them custom made.

I am all for quality and safety, but if I can purchase an inflatable sailing lifejacket canister for £3 I expect some similarity in price to an equestrian jacket canister.
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Ditto. Surely the R&D cost is being recovered in the £440 cost of the jacket?

Paintball cartirdges/drinks dispenser cartridges/tyre inflation cartridges/life jacket cartridges all around £3 a piece. Even if they are different (and the only difference with the one that I bought was the thickness of the seal, the rest was identical) then how is £17 remotely justifiable?

It's not just that I want it cheaper, I think that they are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. I know that there are people who will not buy the jackets because it costs £17 every time you fall off or jump off forgetting to undo it and the horse moves away from you.
 
They all have a different function i.e inflate slower. Point two have higher pressure, different seal, why is it so hard to comprehend they ar edifferent in price? (Like a happy hacker and an event horse are different?)
 
Tilda said:
If you dismount properly as in don't leap off but take feet out if stirrups' leg over back of saddle etc then the jacket doesn't go off. They need 6 stone of weight against them to go off so it would take a very strong person to just pull it! But if u do find one can u let me know if it works as although I've only had to replace mine once so far I can envisage more in the future!
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I weigh 7 1/2 stone and mine went off when I dismounted properly...actually I've done it twice. If your jacket isn't deploying you really need to put a knot in the lanyard as it may not deploy in an emergency.

Tbh £17.50 is a small price to pay to not be off work sick or have bruising. It's also a good deterrent to falling off :D
 
SusieT said:
They all have a different function i.e inflate slower. Point two have higher pressure, different seal, why is it so hard to comprehend they ar edifferent in price? (Like a happy hacker and an event horse are different?)
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SusieT a cannister containing 60g of CO2 which is the same shape and the same size as another is, by the laws of physics, at exactly the same pressure. The cannister which I bought for £3 was absolutely identical except for the thickness of the seal. It met the specification supplied with the jacket perfectly and there was no warning on the label that only P2 cannisters would work at that time either.

Early jackets were shipped with generic cartridges (I had one) and only later did they put their own labels on them. Somewhere, they are sourcing these cartridges for a lot less than the £10 or so that would give them and a retailer a reasonable mark-up at £17, and what we need to do is find out where.

I'm 100% certain that they are not made specifically for equine air jackets.

Does anyone know if the Hit Air one is the same as the Point 2? Hit Airs are currently slightly the cheaper.
 
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cheeryplatypus said:
Tbh £17.50 is a small price to pay to not be off work sick or have bruising. It's also a good deterrent to falling off :D
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When, however, you are not earning a living through equestrianism or another means, £17 is a lot to pay per inflation. I have only really had 1 serious rotational fall while out hunting which meant that the jacket was 100% vital, but the other times have mostly been accidental but still cost me the same price.
 
SusieT said:
They all have a different function i.e inflate slower. Point two have higher pressure, different seal, why is it so hard to comprehend they ar edifferent in price? (Like a happy hacker and an event horse are different?)
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The fact is that we can comprehend a price difference, just not the price difference. A profit margin of £15 is a lot on what should only cost £3 to the customer.
 
I expect the Point 2 cartridges cost no more than £1 to manufacture but by the time they get imported and handled etc everyone add a chunk on
Would I buy a cheap cartridge ? No , why would I spend all that money on a Point 2 and risk it not going off ?
May as well not buy the jacket in the first place ?
 
Dave282B said:
I expect the Point 2 cartridges cost no more than £1 to manufacture but by the time they get imported and handled etc everyone add a chunk on
Would I buy a cheap cartridge ? No , why would I spend all that money on a Point 2 and risk it not going off ?
May as well not buy the jacket in the first place ?
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But if other cartridges can be manufactured, shipped ans sold at a profit of about £3 for other uses, where has the extra £15 come from? And I very much doubt its on having less metal in the seal.

And I would spend all that money on a Point Two for the added safety that it offers, but I would then actually like to use it without worrying about it costing me £17 every time I accidentally dismount while being still attached!
 
oliver.siddons said:
When, however, you are not earning a living through equestrianism or another means, £17 is a lot to pay per inflation. I have only really had 1 serious rotational fall while out hunting which meant that the jacket was 100% vital, but the other times have mostly been accidental but still cost me the same price.
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I've had two inflations in falls and it probably saved me from very serious whiplash in one (i walked away with just concussion) and definately saved me from broken ribs in the other.
I've also had two dismount inflations by accident, yes expensive at £17.50 a time but that's life. If you think about how much you pay for shoes or entry fees it's really not that expensive. I now tie a red ribbon to the lanyard to remind me to unhook before jumping off at the end of the xc, kind of wish they made the lanyard in red so it was more noticeable.
 
We bought our daughter a Point 2 for Christmas and although she has never needed it I don't care as long as when she does need it, it works correctly.
Yes I know the cartridges are a rip off but I am happy to pay retail price for them
I wouldn't go out and buy an expensive car and then go to the scrapyard for some cheap tyres
 
Dave282B said:
We bought our daughter a Point 2 for Christmas and although she has never needed it I don't care as long as when she does need it, it works correctly.
Yes I know the cartridges are a rip off but I am happy to pay retail price for them
I wouldn't go out and buy an expensive car and then go to the scrapyard for some cheap tyres
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That is a very wise decision - especially with it being your daughter.

However, if you could find some equally high quality tires, only they are a different brand and a quarter of the price, surely you would consider? The only trouble is finding that tire. :)
 
cptrayes said:
One of the things that puts me off buying an air jacket is the £18-20 cost of replacing the air canister.

Has anyone found an alternative supply? I can find all sorts of CO2 canisters online, none of them for more than a fiver or so. They are used in paintball guns, boat lifejackets, sodastream machines etc

I can't believe that HitAir and PointTwo's canisters are unique to them, it seems far more likely that the canister is a standard size and fixing and they are quadrupling the price to make a nice fat profit.

So - has anyone with one the jackets found an alternative supply????
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Can you refill? I used to work at a paintball centre and we would fill canisters on the cheap...

Pan
 
PandorasJar said:
Can you refill? I used to work at a paintball centre and we would fill canisters on the cheap...
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I have seen at demonstrations of the jacket the Point Two staff refill the canister "on tap" but I am sure it is not as easy for us customers.

I think the fact that our canisters are permenantly pierced and therefor non-reusable. Does anyone know how Point Two do it?
 
oliver.siddons said:
Very fair point, still £11 mark up however!
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If the mark up is £11, this is split between P2 & the retailer, from the mark up on anything I sell I have to pay my business overheads, pay tax on it, make enough to put back into the business to buy more stock & try to pay myself a wage so that I can eat, if I were to sell these for £3 it actually wouldn't be worth my while as the margin would be around £1, about the same as a tub of plaiting bands, & I'm pretty sure a vital component from a safety device should have a higher value than that. Sorry but I get so peed off with people bleating on about how they are so ripped off, I'm sure you get paid a wage, so am I supposed to live on fresh air? Customers constantly try & rip me off by trying to force prices down, sorry I'm a business not a charity & therefore have to put a sensible mark up on my products so that I can buy luxuries like food.
 
People this is your Safety..... call me old fashioned but what price your neck!!!
Two things, one as pointed out by others I would rather pay full price and know it will work, secondly if it doesn't you will have recourse on the manufacturer under public liability/warranty, if you use some mickey mouse canister you have nothing!!! These are well engineered products and should never be used with anything but the correct canister, its a no brainer.(excuse the pun)
Further to the above when will people realise that for companies to provide quality, service and back up costs money.
 
kizzywiz said:
If the mark up is £11, this is split between P2 & the retailer, from the mark up on anything I sell I have to pay my business overheads, pay tax on it, make enough to put back into the business to buy more stock & try to pay myself a wage so that I can eat, if I were to sell these for £3 it actually wouldn't be worth my while as the margin would be around £1, about the same as a tub of plaiting bands, & I'm pretty sure a vital component from a safety device should have a higher value than that.
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Very adequate argument, but if people are selling VERY similar cartridges for £3, still making a profit on top of tax, overheads, purchase of stock AND a wage for the employes, they are doing it somehow.

I do not doubt for a second that you are the sort of person to be greedy with the market, on the contrary I can see that you are a very hard working person who has to make a living - but somewhere someone is getting a larger cut of the money than you are made to think.
 
cyclo man said:
People this is your Safety..... call me old fashioned but what price your neck!!!
Two things, one as pointed out by others I would rather pay full price and know it will work, secondly if it doesn't you will have recourse on the manufacturer under public liability/warranty, if you use some mickey mouse canister you have nothing!!! These are well engineered products and should never be used with anything but the correct canister, its a no brainer.(excuse the pun)
Further to the above when will people realise that for companies to provide quality, service and back up costs money.
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I too would love to have the piece of mind that in a fall my jacket will operate 100% effectively as safety is my number one concern (hence purchasing the jacket in the first place).

However, when I am being exploited because I want better safety, I feel that is overstepping the mark. As previously discussed (I feel like a stuck record), we realise that quality, service and the running of the company costs money, but when someone else can do the same for considerably less, people (like I and many others) get suspicious.
 
oliver.siddons said:
I too would love to have the piece of mind that in a fall my jacket will operate 100% effectively as safety is my number one concern (hence purchasing the jacket in the first place).

However, when I am being exploited because I want better safety, I feel that is overstepping the mark. As previously discussed (I feel like a stuck record), we realise that quality, service and the running of the company costs money, but when someone else can do the same for considerably less, people (like I and many others) get suspicious.
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I understand that. however I don't think its always that simple. A good analogy would be cheap new tires on high performance cars, they look the same but when the chips are down they just don't perform!! Sadly its no good finding out when the worst has happened, but I take your point.
 
cyclo man said:
I understand that. however I don't think its always that simple. A good analogy would be cheap new tires on high performance cars, they look the same but when the chips are down they just don't perform!! Sadly its no good finding out when the worst has happened, but I take your point.
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But if your high performance car didn't come with tires, and you were told to buy these specialised tires at great expense with only the promise that they are better - and then you found out that you can buy identical tires for many times cheaper from the source that the expensive tires came from, wouldn't you want those instead?

Fully understand your last statement though :)
 
Hi Oliver
I don't think we will agree on this thread but I don't believe the cartridges are the same and am happy to pay full price as I factored the cost in when I chose Point 2.
We are all keeping a close eye on our finances but I feel I would rather cut corners when buying rugs or making shavings go and extra day or so
I would never cut corners on safety , the Vet and the farrier and good quality tack for the horses
Finally if genuine Point 2 cartridges came down in price I would be very happy so at least we agree on that.
Dave
 
I'm late to the thread but used to work for a lifejacket manufacturer, so thought I could offer a different perspective. My lifejacket knowledge is about 6 years out of date but still.

A leisure jacket customer with a 150N jacket could expect to buy a replacement canister from a decent branded canister company for about £6-9. The 250N workwear jackets needed canisters costing a bit more.

No lifejacket manufacturer would entertain the idea of getting a custom made canister, it would push costs waay too high. And in all fairness its not needed when the industry has 2 standard pressures to conform to. Lifejacket testing could be done with any canister that was CE marked as being what it said it was, and we didnt have to declare which brand we tested with. Our jackets had to pass strict metrics including time to reach X pressure. My guess is that our times were longer than required by a horse riding jacket. So either the volume to fill would have to be less in the riding one, or the pressure of the gas canister would need to be higher. Incidentally when we manufactured jackets to use the bigger canisters it cost us a lot more to manufacture, as we had to have two chambers double welded because the risk of bursting was greater. A lifejacket canister needs to be capable of being broken by an adult by tugging a string, so I would guess that wouldnt be anything like the 6 stone weight of a rider falling. Logic tells me that if the seal were to be a different thickness, the lifejacket one should be thinner and break more easily. Since CPT thinks the opposite, I would like to ask how did you test it? I wonder if you have been mistaken somehow in your testing and not used enough 'tug'?

IF they have had to source an unusual, or even custom made canister, I could understand the price. They are selling much lower volumes than the suppliers to the marine industry, so economies of scale would be non-existant on comparison. Like it or not the point two is not for leisure riders (although we can buy it), it is aimed at the competition industry who generally have a bit more money and will spend more on safety. I think this type of jacket will come down in price (or rather a slightly poorer cousin or richer auntie will be developed) so as to include joe bloggs, but not until the cream of the market has been taken, thats just business.

Hope that helps :)
 
I'm reading these posts with interest as I have the Motorbike version of the Hit-Air jacket. As I understand it, mine inflates some milliseconds slower than the Equine version, but I hadn't even looked at the canister supplied with it, it must be different to the equine version surely to allow it to blast slower?

I haven't got a spare canister and am aware that I should have really, as I use this jacket out hacking/schooling.

According to the company I bought my jacket from, the gas canisters are even more expensive at £20!

Boo :(
 
Naturally said:
A lifejacket canister needs to be capable of being broken by an adult by tugging a string, so I would guess that wouldnt be anything like the 6 stone weight of a rider falling. Logic tells me that if the seal were to be a different thickness, the lifejacket one should be thinner and break more easily. Since CPT thinks the opposite, I would like to ask how did you test it? I wonder if you have been mistaken somehow in your testing and not used enough 'tug'?
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The strength of the tug is not the issue. The thing that provides the force to puncture the cannister is the strength of the spring in the mechanism. You could make a trigger to set that off with the touch of a spider, or one needing a sumo wrestler, because it is related mainly to how tightly the ball on the end of the lanyard fits into the hole on the trigger. The rider jackets happen to have been set at 35 kilos, I think (it certainly isn't 6 stone and I have no idea where anyone got that figure from).

I tested by pulling out the trigger. The spring went, the hammer punched the seal, The seal was dented but not holed and the trigger casing broke. This was using a cannister which 100% met the specifications which came with my jacket. There were no warnings on the jacket (purchased in August last year) that non Point " cannisters would not work, which was why I tested a £3 one.
 
Late joining BUT how p***** off was I when..

I ordered two canisters online with point two...

And they didn't put on enough postage and I had to go to the PO and pay A FURTHER £1.70 to collect them

GRRRRR doesn't cover it, if we can all put pressure on them then so much the better.

DAMN CHEEK!
 
cptrayes said:
The rider jackets happen to have been set at 35 kilos, I think (it certainly isn't 6 stone and I have no idea where anyone got that figure from).
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It says this on the piece of paper which came with the jacket I picked up 2 weeks ago, tells you how to inflate it at home.
 
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