All in the name of sport * WARNING*

[Aces_High]

That's always been my experience too but I think many HHO posters don't have any direct personal experience of these trainers and yards so don't know what goes on and then they see videos such as the one posted and put 2 and 2 together.

This is why I am prepared to do a yard visit or two so they can see a big and a little yard at work, morning on the gallops and a trip to the races. A little too late in the year but if anyone would like to come and see these animals at October Part 1 I am more than happy to arrange something.

 

[Allover]

I would love to see the Arc, my brother is a racing fan and i thought it would be nice to get him and my nephew over (nephew is 8 and has been watching racing all his life, ALL THE TIME!!!! my brother never turns it off) It does work out quite expensive but great for the day out!!

I am just up the road from the main "racing" street in chantilly where a lot of the big yards are, you cannot see much but by god what you can see is impressive. There are a lot of old stone stables and courtyards, immaculatly kept, cant wait to get inside one!!

Not sure how long i am staying here but really hope i get the chance to go!

 

[madlady]

MadLady - please read all of my posts on this thread and then come back to me with a constructive question.

I had read all of your other posts on this thread most of which were extremely informative, I was disappointed by your blase 'they are 2yo' comment - as if that makes it all ok? Lots of people outside racing do not agree with the younger horses being trained and raced as young as they are. As for a constructive question - are there any figures showing how many horses come out of racing who have been trained/raced as 2yo with permanent disfigurements/injuries (spinal, fractures, etc) as a direct result of their careers? Those are the sort of statistics I would be interested in.

Awful video but, I for one found it interesting. I have worked in racing for over 10 years and have had only one horse break a leg with me while galloping and that was in New Zealand. I'll never forget it, I broke my leg also, but I'm amazed that's all I did do after watching those jockeys getting flung about.

Racing is a huge industry and while 2 year old races are worth such big money, here and abroad it will continue. I worked in Australia, the 2 year olds there don't often go on to race at 3. They are usually screwed physically and mentally. I blame this on the 'magic million races' where if you buy from the sales, you qualify to win big money in these special races. Seen many a horse screwed, while owners are thinking of the money they could win!

It's a shame but I think racing 2 year olds will always happen as long as race courses put up the money!

Very well said

I promise you that I can take you to over 20 yards off the top of my head now and show you just how good the care and welfare of the animals is. I am truely flat racing through and through - other than a bit of point to point in my early years. It saddens me that people think that the way I do things isn't the majority. There are some amazing trainers, members of staff, head lads etc etc. I want to gather the whole of HHO who would like to learn more and show them exactly what I mean.

I have been to a number of racing yards and do not dispute their level of care and dedication to the horses, I have also seen the attitude of trainers and owners once it has been decided (for whatever reason) that a particular horse won't be racing any more - sometimes that side leaves a lot to be desired - I am not saying that any cruelty occurs just a lot of heartlessness for people who supposedly care for their animal so much.

I don't think there is any way I will ever be comfortable or happy with young horses (2yo) being raced. I am surely not the only person with this opinion.

 

[Four Seasons]

This is sick. I got tears in my eyes and felt dizzy. The people who do this to horses should be wipped to hell and let them run at speeds theys can normally run at.

 

[Miss L Toe]

yes, but they are not forced into a situation that can physically harm them in a field!

Well, yes they are: in the wild they would live on plains in herd groups, no shod horses and no artificial boundaries.
A lot of accidents in fields happen just because there are too many horses in one area, also wire, nails etc, herd dynamics change constantly and the recreational horse is in danger just as much as the racehorse.

 

[AmyMay]

Well, yes they are: in the wild they would live on plains in herd groups, no shod horses and no artificial boundaries.
A lot of accidents in fields happen just because there are too many horses in one area, also wire, nails etc, herd dynamics change constantly and the recreational horse is in danger just as much as the racehorse.

There is absolutely no comparison to be made between what you have posted, and what is viewed on the videos - to think otherwise is just nuts. Sorry.

 

[Aces_High]

I had read all of your other posts on this thread most of which were extremely informative, I was disappointed by your blase 'they are 2yo' comment - as if that makes it all ok? Lots of people outside racing do not agree with the younger horses being trained and raced as young as they are. As for a constructive question - are there any figures showing how many horses come out of racing who have been trained/raced as 2yo with permanent disfigurements/injuries (spinal, fractures, etc) as a direct result of their careers? Those are the sort of statistics I would be interested in.



Very well said



I have been to a number of racing yards and do not dispute their level of care and dedication to the horses, I have also seen the attitude of trainers and owners once it has been decided (for whatever reason) that a particular horse won't be racing any more - sometimes that side leaves a lot to be desired - I am not saying that any cruelty occurs just a lot of heartlessness for people who supposedly care for their animal so much.

I don't think there is any way I will ever be comfortable or happy with young horses (2yo) being raced. I am surely not the only person with this opinion.

Quick one for Allover - October 12th is Arc day. Honestly get yourself there, the atmosphere and the racing is amazing. I even think it's free entry or €5 something very small.

Madlady - I agree about how interesting it would be to see some stats about what you have said. If you can remember send me a PM in December once the sales etc are out of the way and I will do some investigating and see what papers have been written on it. I am sorry my 2yr old comment came across blase but I suppose due to having been involved in the sport for so long I do not think of it as being outrageous. Also a lot of people had been commenting that they were yearlings breezing and I had previously said that they were not yearlings but 2 yr olds so it might have come across in the wrong light. I really would love some people to come to Tatts for the yearling sales to see how furnished these horses are. I have a lot of photo's at home which I will scan to the computer and upload so you can see how furnished an "early" 2 yr old looks. Obviously there are always going to be the backward ones. Owners as a whole do have the horses best interest at heart. I know that people get greedy when money is there to be won but the majority do realise that if they are paying £20K a year plus to have a horse in training then they do have to go by what the horse and trainer tells them. We breed "early" types which will be the sprinters. They are strong, butty, small individuals with a sprint pedigree (generally). The distance horses are of a bigger frame and will develop a lot between their 2 and 3 yr old career. I have also worked with a champion 2 yr old sprinter who didn't develop physically and was disappointing as such as a 3 yr old. She has gone on to be a Group producing broodmare. I don't think or expect everyone to see the racing of 2yr olds how I do. I think the conditioning work which goes into a 2 yr old for a horse which is going to be a 3 yr old is good and something which shouldn't be changed. If there wasn't two year old racing and the horses were broken in this time of the year of their 2nd year it would be interesting to see how they fared on the track statistically next year at 3. I know there will be horses around which have been through this but I would say it is few and far between. Remember I am speaking about flat horses and not NH. I can tell you that when the horses go to the HIT (Horses In Training) sales there are a lot of very sad lads and lasses who are saying goodbye to their horses which are going on to new yards and some to different countries. I looked after a smashing horse, he wasn't a world beater but was as genuine as they come and won a handful of races for me and honestly when I led him through the ring and he was sold I was distraght. He wouldn't have ever won in the show ring he had the wonkiest front legs you have ever seen. Over at the knee in one and behind the knee in the other, offset in both and had long pasterns. But he was sound continuely through his 4 year career. He did a lot of swimming along with his usual canter and gallop work and was one of the happiest little horses I have every worked with. I promise you that if it wasn't for the work, care and expertise that this horse had he wouldn't have had a job to do. He wouldn't have stood up to eventing, dressage or show jumping and to be honest he wouldn't have past a vetting to even get that far!

 

[Aces_High]

Awful video but, I for one found it interesting. I have worked in racing for over 10 years and have had only one horse break a leg with me while galloping and that was in New Zealand. I'll never forget it, I broke my leg also, but I'm amazed that's all I did do after watching those jockeys getting flung about.

Racing is a huge industry and while 2 year old races are worth such big money, here and abroad it will continue. I worked in Australia, the 2 year olds there don't often go on to race at 3. They are usually screwed physically and mentally. I blame this on the 'magic million races' where if you buy from the sales, you qualify to win big money in these special races. Seen many a horse screwed, while owners are thinking of the money they could win!

It's a shame but I think racing 2 year olds will always happen as long as race courses put up the money!

I have to say Curragh that I do disagree a little with you! I am heavily involved with Australian racing. Anyway when I was first track riding in Australia I was 21. I admit it was a HUGE culture shock to me and I thought they were very hard on the horses etc etc. I then had time to reflect on my time there and I can see the bigger picture. I have been back a lot and have built up a very good network of friends, trainers, owners and jockeys. The Australian TB's are 100 times more wirey and stronger than the ENG TB's. The top 2 year olds there nearly all race as 3 year olds and beyond. Look at the record of top horses in AUS coming over to the UK, Dubai, Japan to race. They run a hell of a lot more than any UK racehorse! I have just had a quick peek at the Champion 2 yr olds in Australia and the vast majority of those went on to be Group winners and performers at 3 yrs and more. The other thing which is amazing with AUS TB's is they are effective over such a vast range of distances. For a horse to be a champion 2 yr old (1000M or 5 furlongs) to then be winning at Group 1 level (2500M or 1mile 4 and a little bit!) as a 3yr old plus is just unbelievable and we do not get the versatility here in the UK and Europe. I do however agree that the horses there are a lot more buzzy mentally than the horses here. I also think they tend to have less physical problems due to a lot of their work being done on the flat. The same school of thought is that in France all of the horses are worked on the flat.

 

[madlady]

Thanks AH - again all very insightful information.

I do accept that as you are in the industry it does become more 'normal' to see what are (to the likes of me) babies being backed, worked and raced. To me on the outside though I do still see them as babies. My niece went into racing and worked at a few yards as a stable girl, I went up to see her a few times and - to me - some of those 2yo still looked very very young. I was also disturbed at how regularly the meat man did collections from some of the local yards - collecting horses that hadn't made the grade, had not been winning. Granted in some instances the trainers did do their best to find alternative homes but if the owners didn't want to carry on paying for a horse that wasn't winning well..............

I did see some impressive facilities and the very very best of care and total dedication from the staff. I have to say I never ever got any hints of cruelty whatsoever.

 

[Aces_High]

Thanks AH - again all very insightful information.

I do accept that as you are in the industry it does become more 'normal' to see what are (to the likes of me) babies being backed, worked and raced. To me on the outside though I do still see them as babies. My niece went into racing and worked at a few yards as a stable girl, I went up to see her a few times and - to me - some of those 2yo still looked very very young. I was also disturbed at how regularly the meat man did collections from some of the local yards - collecting horses that hadn't made the grade, had not been winning. Granted in some instances the trainers did do their best to find alternative homes but if the owners didn't want to carry on paying for a horse that wasn't winning well..............

I did see some impressive facilities and the very very best of care and total dedication from the staff. I have to say I never ever got any hints of cruelty whatsoever.

I am so pleased that you have seen a few of the plus points into the industry and I am sure your niece can tell you how well loved these horses are by the majority of the stable staff. I can honestly say I was in one yard for 5 years and not once did we have the knacker man there. Big yard with over 130 horses. We lost two but that was on the operating table. One was having routine surgery and the other was being castrated. We didn't even lose any to colic etc which would be far more common. I agree that the re-homing has become an issue but racing as a whole has turned the re-homing around somewhat in the last decade. I think there is still room for more to be done though. I personally would rather see the horses being destroyed if there isn't anywhere for them to go, than being passed from pillar to post and maybe ending up malnourished and badly treated. I think BE could also do more by having a Retraining of Racehorses class at every event. I didn't realise until last weekend that it wasn't like this. Also BD and BS should be looking at doing the same thing. I appreciate that there are less ROR's doing BD and BS but I am sure there must be some out there!! Maybe we should have a BD and BS ROR thread and get people to post their photo's..... I can then give the owners their racing backgrounds or something!

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

In the 6 years that I have been in my job we have only had 5 horses taken away by the meat truck. 1 was colic, 1 wobblers, 1 heart attack, 1 hit it's head and that was that and the last one was yesterday, broken pelvis. All of our horses that leave racing because they are either naff, injured or just retiring through age we try our very best to find them forever homes. Others that still have a racing or pointing career ahead of them that the owners no longer wish to keep are sent to the sales and we always get happy reports back from the new owners or trainers.

Not all yards are like this but with appearances meaning everything these days more and more trainers are trying to do right by their ex-racers. It will take time for the message to filter through to all levels but I am sure it will get there.

 

[madlady]

I am so pleased that you have seen a few of the plus points into the industry and I am sure your niece can tell you how well loved these horses are by the majority of the stable staff. I can honestly say I was in one yard for 5 years and not once did we have the knacker man there. Big yard with over 130 horses. We lost two but that was on the operating table. One was having routine surgery and the other was being castrated. We didn't even lose any to colic etc which would be far more common. I agree that the re-homing has become an issue but racing as a whole has turned the re-homing around somewhat in the last decade. I think there is still room for more to be done though. I personally would rather see the horses being destroyed if there isn't anywhere for them to go, than being passed from pillar to post and maybe ending up malnourished and badly treated. I think BE could also do more by having a Retraining of Racehorses class at every event. I didn't realise until last weekend that it wasn't like this. Also BD and BS should be looking at doing the same thing. I appreciate that there are less ROR's doing BD and BS but I am sure there must be some out there!! Maybe we should have a BD and BS ROR thread and get people to post their photo's..... I can then give the owners their racing backgrounds or something!

Again nice to hear the positive side and I totally agree it would be nice for more ROR classes as I think a lot of people have a very skewed attitude towards ex-racers - automatically assuming that they are all nutters with bad legs and feet which is not true at all. I honestly think that if what went on behind the scenes in racing were put more in the public eye (within the horsey world especially) that a lot of peoples misgivings and preconceptions would be dealt with. Especially towards treatment/cruelty issues and I think that a lot of people would then be more inclined to take on an ex-racer.

As I've said previously I'll never be comfortable with youngsters being raced but that doesn't mean that I think that the horses are badly treated, I would like to see the racing ages raised though.

I also agree regarding the destroying - I would prefer to see them being humanely destroyed than ending up passed around in unexperienced hands and ending up in a bad way, but I would want that for any horse.

In the 6 years that I have been in my job we have only had 5 horses taken away by the meat truck. 1 was colic, 1 wobblers, 1 heart attack, 1 hit it's head and that was that and the last one was yesterday, broken pelvis. All of our horses that leave racing because they are either naff, injured or just retiring through age we try our very best to find them forever homes. Others that still have a racing or pointing career ahead of them that the owners no longer wish to keep are sent to the sales and we always get happy reports back from the new owners or trainers.

Not all yards are like this but with appearances meaning everything these days more and more trainers are trying to do right by their ex-racers. It will take time for the message to filter through to all levels but I am sure it will get there.

Nice to hear comments from the 'inside' that trainers really are trying to do more on the re-homing front.

 

[skydancer]

I am appalled by this video - what i watched of it anyway - too disgusting!! People should be prosecuted for this behaviour

 

[YasandCrystal]

I didn't watch the video - I can imagine what it's like, but then I don't go watching motorcycle and car accident videos either, because they are made to shock.
I have experienced firsthand a horse with a broken leg at home and as someone said the adrenalin cuts in as with any major injury and the horse will not show pain for quite some time.

I don't disagree with racing and thanks to this extremely informative thread and postings from those with the knowledge - EKW and Aces_High to name 2, I know quite a bit more now.

A fact I have put forward before in anti/pro racing discussions on this forum and which many ignore is that horseowners the world over should not forget and underestimate the millions of £s invested each year in veterinary research and top veterinary establishments by the racing industry! We humble horse owners benefit from this investment immensely. I have have now sent 3 horses to AHT at Newmarket for eye surgery, lameness and breathing investigation and the equipment and knowledge is all largely funded by the racing industry. Animal Health Trust attracts top veterinary surgeons and consultants and I for one am extremely grateful for the advances made in surgery and diagnostics.

 

[bumblelion]

That poor filly, I really felt for her! My friends tb did exactly the same thing two months ago out in the field! Tragic but accidents can happen anywhere. I have a 12yo exracer who raced flat and hurdles for years, did some big races (Ascot gold cup etc) who is in better nick than my 10yo who is ex dressage!