All these barefoot posts.....

cptrayes said:
No Moomin, they don't cure cancer, they stop it happening in the first place.

It is well demonstrated that a wholistic approach to life, with a good diet, good exercise, getting the right amount of sun for vitamin D production, living in a clean place, not smoking, taking a 75mg dose of aspirin a day, etc etc are the best cancer preventative there is.
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There is also a good deal of genetic influence in some cancers too. So would holistic medicine cure those people too?

It would be interesting to know how many of the holistic 'supporters' would turn down conventional medicine if they were diagnosed with a serious and life threatening illness. Just a thought!

Don't get me wrong - if people want to believe in that stuff fine - it's up to them.
 
Cptrayes didn't say that holistic medicine cured cancer. She said that a holistic APPROACH to life may help to prevent cancer.

Don't you agree that by not smoking you reduce the risk of lung cancer, or that not being obese can help to prevent some cancers, and by using high factor suncream you can reduce the risk of skin cancer?

Of course I agree that genetics play a part, but I do believe that the risk can be reduced by leading a healthy life.
 
Moomin1, of course a medical model has it's place but I was referring to horses hooves and the common pathologies that we treat by cutting, carving and applying mechanical devices to in isolation to the rest of the horse. Hooves are connected to horses (unless you follow the 'trolley model' descibed/invented -earlier in this thread lol) and the body has an effect on them just as they affect and reflect (imo) the body.
An holistic model can incorporate medical interventions when required.

ps. Yes genetics also play a part but as has been said prevention is what an holistic model aims for.
I know very little about the subject but there is some interesting stuff in epigenetics... it is possible (keeping open minded here) that cells and genes can be altered in the body through chemical and other influences.

pps. The point of an holistic model is it looks at the whole body and environment, genetics etc. not just one area/problem in isolation. It isn't some new age thing.
 
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I'm also intrigued as to how taking 75mg of aspirin daily could be classed as holistic..

Nevertheless, I agree fully that living as healthy a lifestyle as possible will go a long way to preventing cancer. Cptrayes said living a holistic lifestyle STOPS cancer from happening - not quite the same.

Looking at other illnesses such as malaria, meningitis etc etc - I defy anyone to say that a holistic approach will be of much use in those circumstances.
 
Moomin1 said:
Looking at other illnesses such as malaria, meningitis etc etc - I defy anyone to say that a holistic approach will be of much use in those circumstances.
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Malaria needs control of the mosquito, the sick person needs caring for. You wouldn't just give the drugs in any of these instances would you?
An holistic approach is used very often within medicine. :confused: Holisitic just means considering the whole... Somehow when it comes to horses hooves we don't do this.
 
Clava said:
wiki definition...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_health
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That just about sums it up perfectly! Not one of those holistic approaches are going to be of much use to someone who is in desperate need of a cure for a serious illness.

There are plenty of illnesses out there that are entirely unavoidable and out of our control to prevent despite the 'holistic' approach to life. That's where conventional medicine and science is vitally important.

With regard using a holistic approach in conjunction with conventional medicine - it's an individual choice - personally I see no benefit in partaking in aromatherapy or acupunture etc etc to my health.
 
rhino said:
Which clearly states there are two definitions, one relating to alternative medicine only. You can find an internet definition to suit most purposes ;)
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I will clarify that I am talking about the (accepted ;)) first definition. Considering the whole.
 
Just to clarify - the Barefoot Taliban doesn't believe barefoot can cure cancer
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Moomin1 said:
With regard using a holistic approach in conjunction with conventional medicine - it's an individual choice - personally I see no benefit in partaking in aromatherapy or acupunture etc etc to my health.
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It isn't a case of one versus the other. If you choose to use the second definition then I cannot possibly get you to understand the point I am making.

Sadly, I have come across this 'corrupted' understanding of holistic before and the hostility that comes with it. Life used to be so simple. :(
 
rhino said:
Which clearly states there are two definitions, one relating to alternative medicine only. You can find an internet definition to suit most purposes ;)
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Totally agree which is why people need to clarify what they are refering to when having a debate :)
 
cptrayes said:
People who believe in barefoot rehabs are already convinced.

Horses are alive. Owners have been saved heartache. Well done barefoot, I say.
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If my rehab case is an anecdote, then the anecdote is proof enough for me that shoes are not the be all and end all of hoof care. Good to have options and vets are now coming around in my area. I was lucky to to have their support :)
 
Moomin1 said:
That just about sums it up perfectly! Not one of those holistic approaches are going to be of much use to someone who is in desperate need of a cure for a serious illness.

There are plenty of illnesses out there that are entirely unavoidable and out of our control to prevent despite the 'holistic' approach to life. That's where conventional medicine and science is vitally important.

With regard using a holistic approach in conjunction with conventional medicine - it's an individual choice - personally I see no benefit in partaking in aromatherapy or acupunture etc etc to my health.
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How is this relevant to hooves?
 
'Just to clarify - the Barefoot Taliban doesn't believe barefoot can cure cancer ' that's a relief! (surprising to some :P)
 
LOL and getting back to hooves....!!!! It is my belief that the mustang/brumby hoof was used as a model to demonstrate that horses need movement (over a variety of terrain/surfaces) and poor quality grazing to be able to self trim successfully. This is why the track system was developed. In most cases today horses are either kept confined to a yard or stable and allowed minimal grazing, being fed hay but with very little movment or over here, strip grazed to limit the grass intake and again very little movmement. How many horses kept in these sorts of conditions get ridden for 20 or so miles every day, rain, shine, hail or snow? My guess would be very few!!
 
Alyth said:
LOL and getting back to hooves....!!!! It is my belief that the mustang/brumby hoof was used as a model to demonstrate that horses need movement (over a variety of terrain/surfaces) and poor quality grazing to be able to self trim successfully. This is why the track system was developed. In most cases today horses are either kept confined to a yard or stable and allowed minimal grazing, being fed hay but with very little movment or over here, strip grazed to limit the grass intake and again very little movmement. How many horses kept in these sorts of conditions get ridden for 20 or so miles every day, rain, shine, hail or snow? My guess would be very few!!
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Does this mean we need to adapt hoof care to individual cases as Oberons' posting of the links from tribeequus.com.

Or, does this mean we need to change the way we keep the domestic cousins of the wild horse? Provide the varied terrain of feral horses.

What I am learning is that hooves are as adaptable as they are destructible whether mankind intervened or not. The question is, are WE as adaptable to hoof care - not farriers and vets, but owners who demand high level performing feet? Without owners, there would be no industry, farriers and trimmers would not exist if horses were seen as a food source for example. I am not talking here within this little argument, but the whole world. Could owners take on a paradigm shift in equine management which included hooves as a focus for health and wellbeing rather than the rosettes & trophies? I have picked on the performing world as that is what drives trends and is the biggest market in wealthy countries.

Demand for performance will drive change (as horses and ponies keep on foundering and going lame in shoes or not) and that may not be for many years yet, but, research is going on all of the time, small pockets of research but nevertheless, research. There may not be a product at the end of it, but there could be for certain situations.... You only have to do a bit of net surfing to find all of these pocket studies, mostly american (few English folk are sticking their necks out), but we only have what we have. Technologies like MRI etc will get more accessible which will eventually help.

As for holistic, lets not get bogged down in semantics again, there does need to be a holistic/united/whole approach in this country so that farriers and vets have the confidence to treat horses, insurers know where they stand and owners are confident they are giving the best care possible. The authorities need to be more responsive to change in a positive way, at the moment everything is seen as a threat to tradition, not as a development.
 
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cptrayes said:
I have never seen anyone on this forum harp on about that.



This, on the other hand, we all say until we are blue in the face.



I do not understand why you are telling me this when I have just told you about a barefoot horse with navicular. They do get it. My experience is that the ones who get it are the ones who have grown a shoe and taken their frog out of contact with the floor.



I have no recollection of anyone on this forum suggesting that we should be trying to mimic mustangs. And most certainly not me because I do not follow a "model". The furthest I would go is to use the term "mustang roll" as a neat way to describe rounding off the sharp edge of a horse's hoof in order to prevent it from chipping. I'm really baffled why you are trying to have this particular discussion with me because it is nothing I have ever posted about. If you noticed, I only mentioned the NZ research to say that it didn't tell us anything very useful.
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This forum reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm. History being rewritten and trusting on people's memories being very short as opinions from the past are 'tweaked' and diluted.
This is one of the issues I have with the Barefoot extremists, they bang on about their way is the only way and then when challenged claim, 'we never said that.'

Actually, you said the New Zealand research had been debunked. That is quite different from 'it didn't tell us any thing useful.
 
horserider said:
This forum reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm. History being rewritten and trusting on people's memories being very short as opinions from the past are 'tweaked' and diluted.
This is one of the issues I have with the Barefoot extremists, they bang on about their way is the only way and then when challenged claim, 'we never said that.'

Actually, you said the New Zealand research had been debunked. That is quite different from 'it didn't tell us any thing useful.
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You remind me of an old broken record :D
 
Horseyscot said:
So cptrayes, ten years ago, we're your horses unshod or barefoot????
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Just thought I'd jump in (not read all the thread, sorry! :o ) to say that my lad has been barefoot since 2000 :D

But I've always used a farrier to trim, and have never based my horses diet around him being barefoot. I also knew a girl who worked at Liphook (who I met years after my horse went there, but it turned out she had nursed him - sorry irrelevant info here lol!) who had NEVER put shoes on her horses, except when she went to sell them but only then just to prove they were good for the farrier. She also never based anything on whether the horse was barefoot or not (and used this barefoot term back then :) ) but if the horses hooves weren't great, would just use hoof hardener.

No real point to my post, except this Barefoot "newage" thingy is getting a little obsessive really. As far as I can see, it either works for your horse or it doesn't but its not a new thing :)
 
i'd like mine to be barefoot but theres too much tarmac here and i do like to trot on roads and ride for hours. And dont tell me the feet will "condition" and grow quicker i response, not to the extent they need to they dont ;the hoof just wears down too quickly and therefore needs a shoe.
 
russianhorse said:
Just thought I'd jump in (not read all the thread, sorry! :o ) to say that my lad has been barefoot since 2000 :D

But I've always used a farrier to trim, and have never based my horses diet around him being barefoot. I also knew a girl who worked at Liphook (who I met years after my horse went there, but it turned out she had nursed him - sorry irrelevant info here lol!) who had NEVER put shoes on her horses, except when she went to sell them but only then just to prove they were good for the farrier. She also never based anything on whether the horse was barefoot or not (and used this barefoot term back then :) ) but if the horses hooves weren't great, would just use hoof hardener.

No real point to my post, except this Barefoot "newage" thingy is getting a little obsessive really. As far as I can see, it either works for your horse or it doesn't but its not a new thing :)
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......................................:D
 
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