All those with strong horses.. Bit help please!

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EquestrianFairy

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Right, it's come about that my horse was trained by a racehorse trainer and in return she seems to have an issue with brakes.
She will eventually stop but it is a battle that I will not always win (and don't always win)
She is very green and I know this plays a part, she will happily go up the paces and does understand when I want her to go back down them but when in canter she seems to go full pelt and when I try and stop her (half halts don't work either) she speeds up until its a physical battle and eventually she slows down.

It's not pain related, she's been checked over so many times now and she's so forward going!

I've tried a myler low port snaffle, a NS lozenge.. My instructor rode her yesterday and feels I should perhaps try a kimblewick and a flash noseband..

Anyone else got any suggestions? Ive never ridden a horse in anything less than a snaffle so this is all new to me!

Thanks
 
Sounds like it might be more of a balance issue, esp in canter. An unbalanced horse in canter will get heavier infront and feel like they are pulling you on, half halts will often speed them up as they either don't understand the aid or aren't able to rebalance themselves and take more weight behind. If you take a hold then stopping becomes just a tug of war.

I would get into the school and do lots of work on your horses balance, particularly through the transitions. With the aim being half halts that rebalance rather than offer a prop! When your horse can canter in better balance then a squeeze on a bit that suits the mouthshape should be enough.

P.S. just read through and worried it sounds rather righteous. Don't mean it to be! I recognise what you are describing as I've been there! Bitting up an unbalanced horse just means you wind up working your way through sharper and sharper bits, eventually you run out of options. Schooling is a long but better way and it def works!
 
Hard as it seems, relaxing and not pulling against an ex-racer often works better than bitting up sometimes. It's not easy to do, especially when they are bowling on a bit.

Excitement and a lack of balance can exacerbate this but if she's come from a trainer her schooling will be different to 'ordinary' horses.

Teaching her to respond accurately to half halts in lower paces is a good starting point. I find voice aids help immensely too.
 
I agree that schooling is the key but I would try a bit that uses 2 reins, e'g' Pelham/ NS Universal etc, so that you have a back up to bring into play if necessary, to get your request across
 
i have a ex racehorse i have him in a full cheek snaffle with a copper peanut. when i first got him he had no brakes but i had no knowlege of how to stop him!

untill i did a lot of research and experimented!

trick with mine was to do a lot of schooling on loose rein same on hacks and slowly build up the contact untill he knew that he could work with and without a contact!....

now 1 year later i can slow him down by half halting once maybe twice and staying still in the saddle or i can drop my reins to the buck on his withers... he responds to both amazingly....

but if yours has come from a trainer and you havnt had him long i suggest you tech him what a contact is like i did and if you have a moment where you will have a fight because you cant stop .... be brave and let you reins slide :)

im nt sure if yours is a TB but this worked for mine :)
 
Racehorses are often trained to go faster when you take more of a contact, even half halts. Some thing that sometimes works is bridge your rein over the horses neck as your cantering with your knuckles in their neck ( you might need a bit of a forward seat) so that when your cantering they have a consistant contact then use your voice and relax your hands when you want her to slow down. Plenty of praise with your voice when she does slow down.
Just do your best not to 'play tug of war'. I would do plenty of lunging so that she is good with your voice, I tend to whistle when i want a horse to slow down then use your voice when on board. Lunging will also help with balance even if its just lunging in a cavason with no gadgets. Good luck
 
Does she respond more to a 'jockey stop' with the seat? Our TB can get a bit carried away in canter but does stop when you put weight against the stirrups and ask him to slow. He just see's if he can push his luck for an extra gallop! :D He's only ridden in a snaffle and doesn't need anything stronger. I think a lot of people make the mistake of over bitting ex racers when they don't need it as a bit of apprehension of not being able to stop them takes over.

Would also agree with the schooling, lots of suppling and bending work. Then work on letting go down the long sides, come back on the short so she gets the idea of listening to you. :)
 
I have to say, it sounds like a schooling issue rather than specifically a bitting issue. I think we can take for granted how hard it is for a green horse to work anywhere near correctly in any way shape or form and having been trained by a racehorse trainer, it is unlikely that much attention has been paid to going 'properly' while 'forwards' might not be a problem!

My advice would be to forget canter for a while and concentrate on walk and trot. transition after transition after transition up and down the paces and within the paces. once you can get a sensible trot from a speedy trot, then look at cantering.

I have had some recent success with my large strong boy who likes to lean by using a waterford. some might agree with it, others wouldn't but it works for us.

As for strapping his gob shut with a flash... it would be the last thing I'd do. They can often set their jaw against a flash which is just causing you another problem. At least without, they have the option of relaxing their jaw.
 
What's he like cantering on the lunge? Is he capable of cantering steady and balanced with his neck soft? If not I would work in walk and trot on him and work on his canter on the lunge using lots of voice and transitions
 
vicky_sut said:
Racehorses are often trained to go faster when you take more of a contact, even half halts. Some thing that sometimes works is bridge your rein over the horses neck as your cantering with your knuckles in their neck ( you might need a bit of a forward seat) so that when your cantering they have a consistant contact then use your voice and relax your hands when you want her to slow down. Plenty of praise with your voice when she does slow down.
Just do your best not to 'play tug of war'. I would do plenty of lunging so that she is good with your voice, I tend to whistle when i want a horse to slow down then use your voice when on board. Lunging will also help with balance even if its just lunging in a cavason with no gadgets. Good luck
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This is really great advice.

A horse of mine could get very strong (if allowed) and the thing was to maintain a quiet and steady contact (often with a bridging of the reins, and fisted in to the neck) and a really balanced seat. It was the seat that would slow him down and the relaxing of the contact.

I would certainly not be biting your new horse up.

Also, remember how green she is. I would practice your cantering in straight lines, not circles (which won't be helping) and given the condition of your school (as previously shown) would do as much work out of it as possible.
 
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Iif she is very green & unschooled then no bit is going to give her brakes: I definitely wouldn't use a pelham because it might be too complicated for her plus having to fiddle with two reins on a very green horse may not appeal...
The type of bit you go for depends on how she is to ride: If she's a TB then I imagine she perhaps has a tendency to raise her head and evade you? I would avoid using a bit with a gag action as this will encourage her to raise her head. However if she does tend to get strong and set or lower her neck then a bit like that may encourage her to lighten her forehand and become less strong.
The stronger the bit you use, the more she's likely to resist you: if she doesn't understand your aids in the first place or hasn't been sensitised to them, then she is likely to just ignore you. I would start with te mildest, simplest bit you can find and rather than move on to stronger bits, use bits that have different kinds of actions instead. That way you're more likely to find something that is more effective and more comfortable for her at the same time.
Good luck!
 
Back to basics is the way foward. Schooling work,such as only cantering on a 20metre circle will teach your horse to balance, & not bowl along on her forehand,&feeling strong in your hand. If she does get strong,decrease the size of the circle,or if you have to,commit yourself to pulling her up to walk.

I only ask for canter when I have a balanced,steady trot,as the canter will only be as good as the previous pace. Lots of changes of direction,& circle work gets them off the forehand,& even the strongest horse can learn to work off of a light contact when they are balanced, & they do not feel the need to rush to compensate for lack of balance.
I personally don't think a stronger bit will help:)
 
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In your position I would avoid bitting him up, and not let him canter for long periods. As soon as you think he's getting too fast, straight back to trot and walk. I would even go so far as to say he's not ready to canter yet, and muscles need to be built up in trot for at least 6 weeks first!

I would also lunge on a pessoa (or similar), or long rein in the field to get the horse used to a contact!
 
Hmm glad someone else posted about this issue and got some answers coz i didnt!

I had my TB (ex racer) in a french link half cheek and a cavesson noseband, had NO BRAKES WHATSOEVER and he does everything your mare does!

I now hack him in a french link pessoa and a grackle to stop him crossing his jaw! He is still strong but i have ALOT better control and can actually stop now :)
 
Thanks all..

We do most of our work outside the school as she gets bored very easy, I tend to use hacking as a way of schooling but we have a lesson once a week for an hour to help me out.

Out hacking: if we canter she will pull up much better than in the school. We've done lots of trotting and she is starting to find a nice ryththm in trot.
When cantering in the school it's always when going large as She's not ready for smaller circles in canter. She always, always speeds up after a corner and almost bombs across the school by which point she's going so fast I have to pull her up (or try to!)

Would a hanging cheek snaffle help?

She is a TB and yes, does chuck her head up and evade as someone has said.
 
When cantering in the school it's always when going large as She's not ready for smaller circles in canter. She always, always speeds up after a corner and almost bombs across the school by which point she's going so fast I have to pull her up (or try to!)
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This is about your seat, not her mouth, I would suggest.
 
Sounds like a balance issue for your horse. I've spent time with our TB working on suppleness and balance as he used to 'motorbike' round corners too as he was finding it difficult.
If she's not ready for small circles then i would do work on a 20 metre circle and work on balance and suppleness. I find spiralling the circle down then leg yielding back out is a good exercise and you can do this in walk and trot first then move up to canter with LOTS of half halts to help balance. Lunging a couple of times a week also helped me.
Also lots of serpentines, shallow loops, circles to help get her supple. :)
 
I would tend to agree with Amy May unless as EF says, the instructor rode her too and advised a change of bit. Therefore she either agrees with EFs problem or recognises that EF cannot handle the problem in the current bitting situation.
Bitting the horse up might not be a permanent solution, however the instructor feels there is some merit in it, even if it's just to get the horse to listen to the basics and then down-bit her slowly once she actually knows the premise of stop.

We all know the correct way to do things and fwiw I agree with those methods, however some crazy person has got on a 15.2 coloured crossbreed riding horse and decided to train it like a racehorse :confused: - the damage is done now and perhaps thinking outside of the box might be what'd required here?

Who knows, I'm surmising, however I'd be inclined to rust someone who knows, has seen and has ridden the horse. Oh and who's a qualified instructor. :)

EF, if that is what your instructor suggests and you trust her (which I assume you do) then do what she says. If not, get a new instructor :)
 
I am normally the first person to criticise my Riding but my instructor has ridden her and has my YO who both compete internationally. To be honest, I think it's a case of I have piled so much money into her and I don't even own her that I'm unsure whether I should just quit while I'm ahead and look for something I can keep hving fun on.
 
A kimblewick is a pretty sensible bit to suggest for someone having braking issues. BUT I remember seeing your pictures and video of this horse, and I think the answer is actually to stop trying to canter. Your mare is a sweetheart but she hasn't the muscle, the balance or the schooling to cope with it.

I would spend at least a month just hacking steadily, mainly in walk to build up her fitness, muscle and balance, to get her confident and to build up a relationship. Then start with a little light schooling but spend most of your time still hacking. To begin with school in walk, work walk/halt transitions, circles, shapes and flexing. Then start introducing trot slowly, only on bigger shapes and work on your transitions and rhythm, and on balancing her by doing lots of transitions. Until her walk trot transitions are really nice and balanced and you are able to control the rhythm of the trot fairly reliably forget about cantering.

I'd had my young mare for over six months before I expected her to canter in the school, although we were doing a little bit on hacks (straight line, and up hill with a lead). She still lacks balance in the transition but her canter is improving nicely and she is learning to balance and vary the rhythm, it is a work in progress though as she tends to forget how to trot nicely once we have cantered :o

For what it is worth pulling the reins will not stop your horse, you need to learn to stop her from your seat. Work on this in walk and trot, you should be able to do a downwards transition on a loose rein by using your seat, when you can do this and your horse understands make sure you do not forget to do this when you are cantering.

I suspect your horse hasn't really been trained at all, and you need to start from scratch. It might be worth looking for an instructor who is used to breaking babies and schooling green horses (or possibly reschooling ex-racers), your instructor might be fab at whatever she does but that doesn't necessarily mean that she is best to advise in this situation. I would use a different instructor for different jobs, and the person I'd choose to help with a green baby would not be the same person I'd choose to help if I wanted to SJ over 3ft or do Elementary dressage.

I think the racehorse trainer thing is a red herring, your horse is quite simply very green and babyish, and your description of her suggests this.

Have you had teeth, back and saddle done? When she won't stop what does she do? A drop noseband (not too tight) might help, as might a slight change of bit but sticking with a snaffle.
 
You had some good advice on this thread, well worth following.


http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=506547

Also I would absolutely not be having an hour long lesson on a horse this age. She is 4 rising 5, green unfit and lacking muscle, you shouldn't be spending more than half an hour in the school at a time really, certainly not longer than that working intensively as you do in a lesson.
 
Thanks Kat,

It's an hour lesson split between two of us so it's half hour each. Weirdly my instructor does back and break babies that's why I chose her :-/

We have our lesson once a week and the rest is hacking, we don't generally go back in the school unless it's for a lesson. Out hacking its lots of hills (in walk) and the odd trot with some canters only in straight lines.

Her back, teeth, saddle have been done. My instructor has ridden her and had the same problems. To be honest, I'm becoming so deflated with the whole thing that Maybe I'm just not the right rider for her and she needs someone who is.
I've had youngsters before but not ones that are this green where everything needs to start from the very beginning.

I'm going to ring her owner and explain, it's becoming really disheartening as all I want to do is do what's right for her.
 
So like an hour lesson semi private with two of you in there for an hour or on of you does half an hour and then the other does half an hour? It is just I would really not want to be on my youngster in the school for a whole hour, and I'd question an instructor who thought that was appropriate, a half hour lesson will be a lot for a horse like yours. It could be that she is leaning and pulling because she is getting tired, mine starts to snatch and head toss when she starts to tire.

As I said on your other thread, I'd be taking lots of time away from lessons and just hack her, aiming to get her stretching down and relaxing. This will also help her build the muscles she needs, especially those on the top of her neck as she currently has a bit of an "upside down" neck. It will also help her start to improve her balance and get used to the aids. Aim to have her hacking sensibly in company both in front and behind, and alone too if possible. Don't bother about cantering if she is strong, wait until you have your stop aids more established.

To me it sounds like your instructor is perhaps a little keen to push on faster than this little mare can cope with. I know some youngsters can cope but your girl still looks such a baby and lacks so much muscle I'd take the pressure right off. If you want lessons could you borrow a friend's horse or go for schoolmaster lessons while you let your girl chill out a bit?

I'd wait until the weather is better and your girl is a little better muscled before you start to press on with the schooling. This will also have the advantage of allowing you both to build a bond.

I think it is a bit too soon to think about putting in place some serious brakes, with a horse like this you are playing the long game and it is often better to take things slower rather than resorting to stronger bits and gadgets early on as you are making the horse for the future.

If you are keen to keep working her in the school then maybe do some groundwork (not necessarily parelli type stuff you can do longreining and things too) and work on getting her responsive to voice aids, that will help you when you are on board, as she probably just doesn't understand when you are asking her to slow down at the moment and needs some extra help.
 
Our TB was only just four when we got him - he'd at a race training yard when he was three - although he never raced... Then was hacked for a bit (grackle, fixed martingale and dutch gag) before being left to pretty much rot in a field... We had to rest him when we got him to get some meat on his bones...

Impeccable on the leg and a real sweetie but totally green and not the foggiest idea what to do with himself when he did canter... Consistently wrong leg and brakes were erm, non existent if he got going whilst out...

We stopped cantering on hacks until he got some simple schooling done hacking and in the school - short sessions... Learning half halts at walk and trot and burying the bum in the saddle to slow him down... After a while I could turn hands slightly and touch knuckles to the shoulder and say "stretch" to get him to push out and low and stretch as he used to carry his head quite high... Gave him some time off over winter and he's really quite different starting back into a little work this year - he has found the correct canter leg (no throwing weight over his shoulder to flip him onto the right one) in the school and is soooo much more balanced and 'light'... I've got a very nice rider from the local university who takes him out on hacks and she's found a huge difference in the way he responds to signals to slow down when she's out in an area that's got a nice little canter track... We just added a flash to a regular snaffle as he will try and get over the bit...

He's rising five now and I think he's just been a bit of a slower youngster to bring along - not helped with the race training then 'tie him down with every gadget going before dumping in a field' approach... I don't want to rush him though and get into fights as he does want to please if he can work out what he's supposed to be doing... He still gathers himself a little and gets slightly quivery when the reins are shortened but he tries to think a little more methodically about what you're asking now rather than just launching... :)
 
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