All you Irish Draught owners part and purebred

Simsar

Simsar

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Hello all, we have our annual IDHS Breed Show on the 19th 20th September at Western Lawns in Warwickshire, and at present our entries are low! So this is a plug which I hope doesn't get removed? Please take a look at the Schedule and bring yourselves along their is dressage too! We have a good number of classes that you can enter, so hope to see some of you there.Entries close 2nd Sept!!
http://www.idhsgb.com/web/filemgmt_data/files/breedshow09_schedule-v4.pdf
 
Wish I was a bit closer too! I'm not FAR , but we like to keep our outings local at the mo
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Much as I love Irish Draught horses, there are so few about and most purebreds are incredibly expensive at 3 - 4 years old. I just wish I could afford a broken 4 - 5 year old to start with that doesn't have issues, is a comformational reject or isn't over 17.hh.

Having had a purebred ID and 2 ID/TB in the past I know that they are like gold dust to find and buy.
I think the IDHS |(GB) does not do enough to make these fabulous horses available to low budget purchasers. You can get a TB for £1500 or less, but you will not find a purebred ID for that is broken to ride, anywhere!
They have wonderful temperaments and are ideal for novices as well as older more competent yet perhaps less sprightly riders like myself.I think they could be the top horses for the ordinary purchaser if they were generally cheaper and the organisation more available to potential purchasers. Having had a purebred ID that was put up for grading, I know from experience.
Perhaps the reason you do not have many entries is because many find the organisation is so elitist!
 
Ooo... i haven't had a proper look at the flier yet but does he need to be RID with passport to compete? He's an IDxTB (by Banks Fee Daniel out of a polo pony) but has a Hurlingham Polo Association passport...

If he doesn't have to have an IDHSGB passport then I could be tempted!
 
There's a reason they command a high price & it certainly isn't up to the breed society to tell sellers what price to ask for!

Money couldn't buy mine from me, I love him to bits & he has a home for life. He's also is a long long way from a novice ride - Jim + novice = carnage
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If you really want one then do what lots of other people do, buy a youngster & wait for it to grow up. You can still have lots of fun with them until you can ride.
 
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There's a reason they command a high price & it certainly isn't up to the breed society to tell sellers what price to ask for!(/

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Of course I realise that but ultimately the people that buy have money and the people that breed sell to more people that can afford to pay such prices -ergo!

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If you really want one then do what lots of other people do, buy a youngster & wait for it to grow up. You can still have lots of fun with them until you can ride.

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Been there, done that, too old to take risks with youngsters anymore, also not enough time left - I am 53. Just need a nice five year old ID at a sensible price not a superstar!!!
 
At the end of the day it's supply & demand. Breeding isn't cheap, I daresay a lot of breeders struggle to break even, surely you can't ask them to make a loss? I bought Jim as a 2yo & while he wasn't expensive for what he is I could easily have paid less for an already broken horse. I don't "have money" but I was prepared to spend what I did have on the horse that I wanted.

From personal experience he was a darn sight easier at 3 & 4 than he was at 5 - there are several parts of that year that I try hard to forget!!!!
 
chestnutcob - they don''t have to have a IDHS(GB) passport but their exisiting one does have to be overstamped by the IDHS (GB) at a cost of £17 with at least a month's notice. Or be on the ID show horse register.

Shan't be bringing any of my 3 - they've all got green Irish passports but aren't overstamped.
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http://www.idhsgb.com/web/

Try contacting the Society and see if they could do it in less time. Maybe it should be suggested that if they do an overstamping on the days of the Show then they would be able to have the entries?? Meaning the Show wouldn't be cancelled.
 
What do you call a sensible price price for a 5yr old ID? Just wondered as TBH I think ID's are very well priced for the amount/quality of horse you get compared to what Warmbloods go for. I understand about you not wanting a younger horse but have you considered something 12 or over that has been there and done that and will just get on with the job? As ID's don't mature much before 8yrs anyway you'd have plenty of years of service from something a bit older and this would be reflected in the price. I have bred a couple of ID's and had them graded and mine don't usually start any serious work anyway until they are at least 5yrs old.
 
I totally agree, I had a beautiful 15hh dapple grey ID mare, pure bred, from a 5 year old and she was a saint, lovely to do everything with, unfortunately she died at 7 and I have been looking for the past 3 years to find another similar but they are all over 16hh which is just too big for me. I just missed one last week by one phone call, infuriating and I am looking daily for anything similar on all the web sites. Very frustrating!!
 
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What do you call a sensible price price for a 5yr old ID?

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I do not see why an average one for hacking and a bit of local RC stuff should not be over £3750 but they are usually £4,500 - £5,000 plus.
There are many diferent abilities and even looks TBH in IDs and not every one is a superstar warranting a price tag like that just because its a purebred ID. I remember when more than half a riding schools horses were big 15.2 -16 -3hh imported IDs( the rest were anglo arabs or welshies !) lots of quality greys always, but now they seem like gold dust.

As for the post that said eariler that ID breeders have to make a profit well obviously they do, but racehorse breeders spend thousands sometimes on breeding a foal then end up selling it for £800. Most ID Stallion owners appear to have their own land and their own mares.
How much profit do they really need to make, in that case ?

True I did once pay £1000 for a purebred ID foal at 6 months, but the guy selling them was selling off his deceased fathers stock and so everyone was snapping them up cheap.

I have just seen three lovely 3 year old all unbroken

http://www.whippletreestud.com/Irish%20Drafts.htm

All to make over 17.hh and therefore too big to be useful (to me) , and all over £4500.- ergo
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Yet there are two cleveland bays http://www.whippletreestud.com/Cleveland%20Bays.htm
same age, at under £3,500
Both lovely horses - not so popular as IDs perhaps
 
Sorry but it strikes me that maybe you should look at connemaras rather than IDs as I dont think you are going to find what you are looking for at the price you feel able to pay.
 
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Sorry but it strikes me that maybe you should look at connemaras rather than IDs as I dont think you are going to find what you are looking for at the price you feel able to pay.

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Thanks but not sure I would want a conne - too small for me at 5ft 9inches I think
but yes you have a point - the very point I have been making, there are no IDs at sensible prices available.

The question I was raising is "why" and why there are insufficient people with IDs to attend ID Shows???!!!
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Think you've hit the nail on the head. Obviously its a case of supply and demand. People are prepared to pay more because they don't change hands very often, pretty much like a safe pc pony or patent safety cob. Have you considered putting a wanted advert on the Irish Draught Horse Society website?
I think you'll find that over the past few years purebred IDs in Ireland have often been more expensive to buy than stock sold over here. I had my RID 3 year old filly advertised a few months ago for £4500 and obviously would have dropped a little on the price so I don't see why you wouldn't pick up a smaller gelding under that amount if you are prepared to travel. Most of the IDs which are advertised at cheaper prices seem to be with dealers and may not be the real McCoy. I decided to keep my filly as I realised I wouldn't get something as laid back and good natured as her without a heck of a search.
 
Trust me they are out there, like it said in the above post it's about supply and demand, but if you are very lucky and are in the right place at the right time there are still bargains to be had! In the last 18 months we have bought two colts and a mare and the most expensive was £2500, you need to put the feelers out and go to anything to do with the ID and you might just get lucky!
 
There is a stud dispersal sale on the 10th Oct in Wales, you might find something there! Check out the IDHS(GB) home page for details.
 
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I do not see why an average one for hacking and a bit of local RC stuff should not be over £3750 but they are usually £4,500 - £5,000 plus.


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You obviously haven't considered the costs of production then!

If we're talking RID's (rather than something that's claimed to be 'Irish') - finding a good RID mare under £4,500 - 5,000 ain't easy! Most of my RID mares have cost around the £4-5,000 mark at 9-10 years old - I had to pay £10,000 for one very good 3 year old! From a 10 year old, I might - if lucky - get 5-6 foals in her lifetime, so each foal 'costs' - say - £800 just for the USE of the mare. Her keep for 12 months - say £750 if she doesn't run up the vet's bills. Stud fee and costs for getting in foal - at least another £500 - although if the mare is 'difficult', you could double that! So when a pure-bred foal hits the ground it's already cost me over £2,000!

Its registration, DNA testing and microchipping - £100; trimming, vaccinations and odds and sods until weaning - another £100. So a weanling colt or filly HAS to be a minimum of £2,200 for you to break-even.

Let's take that weanling colt: geld him - £150, keep him for 3 years at an average £750 a year for grazing, haylage and balancer; worming every 3 months for 3 years - £120; trimming every 8 weeks for 3 years - £325

So when I START to back him at 3 years, he's already cost me over £5,000!!

And 3 months later, when he's backed and hacking out quietly, I advertise him for £5,000 and some people tell me it's too much!!

Fortunately, the picture is a little brighter with fillies because you can usually sell a NICE purebred ID filly at weaning for £3,000 - £4,000 - so you hope like hell you get more fillies than colts!

Of course those costs DON'T include 'disasters' - like the mare who bleeds into the broad ligament because foal kicks a bit too hard on the way out - that one was £700 in vet bills to save her life - and a year off breeding! Or the colt born with Neonatal Maladjustment Syndrome that spent a week trying to die, ran up £800 of vet's bills in his first week (to say nothing of a week of no sleep for me!) Or another, who got a chip on the hock and needed £1800 worth of surgery to make him sound! (the alternative was to shoot him!)

Irish Draught breeders might not need to make a profit - but break-even would be nice!
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And if I could pay myself 20 pence an hour and STILL break even it would be even nicer!
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The old saying, Fools breed horses for wise men to buy!, is VERY true!
 
I do appreciate that you know what you are talking about, as a breeder, - but surely these costs apply to all breeders of all purebred horses?

The breeder of the Cleveland bays sell those much cheaper than the RIDS. Yet apparently they are rarer. So why so much cheaper, surely they cost the same to breed? Why would the breeder choose to take a chance on running at such a loss?

And yes, I was meaning the cost of RID (purebred) , though my reference to riding school horses in the 60s may well just have been IDX types.

Pardon me for asking - but if you are not making a living out of breeding RID and you barely break even with all the cost, how can you buy a £10,000 mare for breeding and balance the books ie run a business on that basis?
Sounds to me more like an expensive hobby, that you can afford, and therefore answers my intial question as to why there are so few RID available to ordinary folk.
 
Even if it is someone's expensive hobby that they can afford (& bear in mind that to afford it they may work full time too & scrimp & save on everything else) I still don;t see why that means they should finance someone else's choice of a horse. Maybe, just maybe, they'd like a little bit of money back to pay for a holiday or do things around the house? Maybe barely breaking even is acceptable but regularly making big losses isn't?

As for them not being available to ordinary people, well that's rubbish. I've got one so they aren't that exclusive! Yes there are cheaper breeds out there but there's also much more expensive ones. Very few things in life are equally available to everyone - I'd rather like a Ferrari but I can't see me getting one!

Re the Cleveland Bays, well it's probably just supply & demand. I know a lot of people who wouldn't touch a CB with someone else's bargepole!
 
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I do appreciate that you know what you are talking about, as a breeder, - but surely these costs apply to all breeders of all purebred horses?

The breeder of the Cleveland bays sell those much cheaper than the RIDS. Yet apparently they are rarer. So why so much cheaper, surely they cost the same to breed? Why would the breeder choose to take a chance on running at such a loss?

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I suspect that most - if not all - Cleveland Bay breeders ARE hobby breeders (as are many breeders, of course.) And I doubt if many breeders make a PROPER profit - if they count return on capital invested, a reasonable wage for themself etc. MOST youngsters are sold too cheaply - it's a case though of supply and demand. Lots of people want RIDs - not so many want Cleveland Bays (and having owned one - and known a few more - I can understand why!

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Pardon me for asking - but if you are not making a living out of breeding RID and you barely break even with all the cost, how can you buy a £10,000 mare for breeding and balance the books ie run a business on that basis?
Sounds to me more like an expensive hobby, that you can afford, and therefore answers my intial question as to why there are so few RID available to ordinary folk.

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I'm not sure I'll EVER make a living out of breeding IDs - break-even would keep my husband happy!
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That IS the plan - but it takes time to build your herd - improving the quality. I bought one very expensive mare - but I've also bred a few that I could have sold for similar sums - but I retained them. I've now got my nubers to a point where I don't want MORE mares - but I want to improve the overall quality of the herd.

I also run a breaking and schooling yard which helps the bottom line a bit - and keep my husband's hunters (he says I may provide the BEST hunter livery for miles around - but it's hellishly expensive!
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Myself and Sarah are ordinary people with ordinary low wage jobs yet we manage to afford them so they can't be that elitist!! We do have to scrimp and save all the time to be able to afford the horses we want, but we wouldn't have it any other way with any other horses!!! ID's are the best so therefor you must expect to pay good money for them!
 
There are cheapish IDs out there but I always find that horses find us. I never find anything when I am looking. In May we purchased 16.2 hh 8 y o full ID by Hillviewfarm Milligan, full brother to Kingcloughs Milligans Rose (which is supposed to be decent? if you are into IDs and breeding which I am not! ) He is a lovely chap.....and although we do not do showing, as we bought him to hunt, we qualified him for Ponies UK and Equifest hunter classes. He went and was placed in every class....what a star.

Can't wait to take him hunting when we start in September.....and to jump him when we get some rain.
 
Why not bring him along to the breed show? Kingcloughs milligans rose is indeed a very nice horse who has done very well at the breed show several times!!! Judging by your results at Ponies Uk and Equifest it runs in the family and so would be well worth the trip!!
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I did have a brief look at the schedule, but not sure what we could do. There do not seem to be specific hunter classes. Would it just be age classes? We are not really into showing and only had a go 'cos people said how nice he was. We bought him because we liked him ...the breeding etc was just a bonus. I did send his passport to the IDHS to get the change of ownership noted etc so he would be able to go.....just a bit nervous I guess.
 
Off the top of my head there is the working hunter class, in hand gelding, dressage, performance horse, combined training, open ridden, ridden ID 7+, liesure horse there might be a few more but can't think of them. There really is no need to be nervous we are all a really friendly bunch and people of all levels compete, it's just about having fun with your horses and the evenings entertainment is great fun too. Please take another look at the schedule and really consider going it could be well worth it!!!!
 
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chestnutcob - they don''t have to have a IDHS(GB) passport but their exisiting one does have to be overstamped by the IDHS (GB) at a cost of £17 with at least a month's notice. Or be on the ID show horse register.

Shan't be bringing any of my 3 - they've all got green Irish passports but aren't overstamped.
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Bugger that then! Not paying £17 for that just because it's a breed show when I can take him to Trailblazers or BD dressage without needing to faff about with passports.
 
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