'Alsatian Breed Campaign'

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Anyone else seen this? What do you think?

The Alsatian Breed Campaign - Launches Wednesday 16th January 2013



After a year of preparation a number of German Shepherd owners and breeders have combined to launch a campaign to recognise the Alsatian as a separate breed within the UK.

For many years the German Shepherd breed has been divided over which 'type' of dog is the correct one. For simplicity, the 'Germanic' or 'SV' dog is characterised by having an outline in which the rear part of the back is curved, whereas the 'English' type has a back which is straight from withers to croup.

Both sides argue that their type is correct under the Kennel Club standard but this is an obvious impossibility. A group of owners of 'English' type dogs have, therefore, decided that there is sufficient support to try and divide the breed by creating a new breed: The Alsatian. The campaign, launched on the 16th January, takes the view that rather than trying to continue with an unworkable situation within the breed it would be better to separate the two factions.

Their view is that the situation is now untenable and they cite, as an example, the dearth of judges prepared to give awards to dogs that are of a type that they do not personally like, rather than judging to a common-sense reading of the breed standard. This is exemplified by the withdrawal of the Crufts 2013 GSD judge, Mr W Petrie. As a result of his withdrawal and replacement many entries were withdrawn and many new ones made as it is supposed that his replacement judge, Mr K Hoyland, will favour the opposite type.

Indeed, with the alarmingly low number of CCs available for GSDs, given the popularity of the breed as a whole, it is becoming difficult to see any way in which the traditional, straight backed dogs will continue to gain show awards.

They also cite the continuing question of health checks with a number of GSD Breed clubs still opposed to the Kennel Club's view about poor conformation in many dogs, which was also emphasised in the Bateson Report.

The organisers believe they have a lot of support from knowledgeable owners and breeders from outside the German Shepherd fraternity, exemplified by the number of such people who approach them at shows and remark on how pleased they are to see 'proper' German Shepherds.

A website, TheAlsatian, has been created to give full details of the campaign and for people to register their support. There is also a Facebook page and group - Alsatian Breed Campaign and a Twitter feed @AlsatianBreed
 
A) It's the same breed, same DNA, the KC have just done away with the name 'Alsatian', no need for a split.

B) Whilst I appreciate there is a lot of back-massing in German lines, gene pool of the 'Alsatian' type is tiny with numerous lines back to dogs implicated in epilepsy and high hip scores. Those of us who have owned dogs from English lines (we had a fab Ch Spartacist of Hedrawen daughter before anyone accuses me of being biased) will be honest enough to tell you that windy temperaments are also a huge issue.

C) Look a bit closer and you will see it is a big-up for one particular kennel and one particular American import, ho hum.

D) Most 'Alsatian' types do not have a staight/level back either, I see lots of saggy backs. The dog on their website is actually quite a nice type but swan necks and over-angulated hindquarters are not correct either.

E) It's a GERMAN Shepherd

F) And the most important, seeing as they keep quoting Max von Stephanitz:

"Take this trouble for me; Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim."

Alsatianists, unlike the Germanic type enthusiasts (who promote dogs having to have working qualifications to attain top honours), put NO emphasis on working ability whatsoever.
There are NO 'Alsatians' competing in the breed sport/selection tool of IPO (formerly known as Schutzhund) and NONE working in the services. Make of that what you will. They don't have the build and they don't have the temperament, and they certainly don't have the genetics.

Even I managed to get a basic obedience qualification and a tracking qualification on my crippled, slopey-backed, German showline type.

Not anywhere in this whole campaign have I seen the word WORK mentioned.

They'd be better served using dogs from WHEREVER, England, Europe, USA, that could improve temper, construction and workability, keeping the original name of the breed, committing to the health testing that the Germanic fraternity have been carrying out for decades.
 
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What a farce.

Reminds me of the USA "breed creators" who strt their own breed, usually because they breed from what is handy & sells because it is rare. I've had a quick read through and the satndard is a joke (I can hope) eg.
"COLOUR
Black or black saddle with tan, or gold to light grey markings. All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables. Nose black. Light markings on chest or very pale colour on inside of legs permissible but undesirable, as are whitish nails, red-tipped tails or wishy-washy faded colours defined as lacking in pigmentation. Blues, livers, albinos, whites (i.e. almost pure white dogs with black noses) and near whites highly undesirable. Undercoat, except in all black dogs, usually grey or fawn. Colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on character or fitness for work. Final colour of a young dog only ascertained when outer coat has developed.
(the colouring of the dog has no significance whatever....albinos...are dismissed as harmful to the breed)" so they are allowing the undesirables equal footing?

This smacks of a new breeder or at least someone who has never developed a line ;-"TRANSITION
The major problem will be in deciding which dogs should go into which group - Alsatian or German SV. It is believed that this can be accomplished by a phased transition along the lines of:
1. A start date would be announced. From that date there would be a period of 2 or 3 years during which dogs could be registered at birth or re-registered from the GSD breed. Puppies would have to have parents that were all KC registered GSD, all Alsatian or one of each and those parents must have undergone the appropriate health checks. (More about health later).
2. At the end of the 2 year period only puppies bred from 2 Alsatian parents would be allowed.

Two years to define a breed when none of the original puppies will be mature? But who cares they will have a new "rare" breed.
 
I've been continuing to follow this debate on Facebook and elsewhere, the type of dogs in the USA they are promoting the importation and breeding of, quite frankly scare me, and still, any questions as to whether their dogs could compete in any type of sport or be employed in any sort of work, are completely ignored.

I know our Spartacist daughter used to try and dig herself a hole in the ground during a gun sureness test :o

Re the part about health tests, what health tests do they want, that are not being carried out by those who favour the international type?

If it's loose hocks they don't like, well, as much as I don't like them, there's no test for them as far as I am aware.

And if it is a question of backlines and rear ends, why do straight-backed, straight legged breeds like Labs, Goldens and Rotts get hip dysplasia?
 
So they want a new breed that fits what their dog looks like because then they might do rather well one presumes ;)

I was also thinking along similar lines that it is a german shepherd so the germans might actually have it right ;)
 
I have neighbours who have two G'S. They are the sorriest looking dogs I have ever seen. They look like a large dogs front was grafted to a medium sized dogs rear end. When they walk the back end sways and wiggles. Why on earth would anyone want to encourage that type of breeding. I accept that these are not great examples but it's what the requirement for the low sloping back has led to. :(
 
There is no requirement anywhere in the breed standard for 'low sloping back'.

The original GSD, Horand vom Grafath
horand.jpg


The dog heralded as the saviour of 'The Alsatian' breed (he's dead now but he had a lot of covers)
chip.jpg


This year's Sieger (top showline dog in the world 2011 and 2012)
remo.jpg


This year's WUSV champion (top working dog in the world, took part in what is essentially a three-day event for dogs)
hank-1.jpg


This year's Universal Sieger (to qualify, took part in both a show and a trial)
zambo.jpg


So, who do people think is breeding the 'correct' type?
Form should follow function, so to me, it's the WUSV dog all the way followed by the Universal Sieger.
 
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Oh and if we want to take the British PoV (I don't hold Crufts as the be all and end all) here's the Crufts Best of Breed from 2012:
elmo.jpg


He was also British Sieger 2012 so had to undergo a courage test to prove his working ability.
He's won under allrounders (who traditionally do not like 'Germanic' types).

Quite a young pic of him though.
 
CaveCanem said:
Oh and if we want to take the British PoV (I don't hold Crufts as the be all and end all) here's the Crufts Best of Breed from 2012:
elmo.jpg


He was also British Sieger 2012 so had to undergo a courage test to prove his working ability.
He's won under allrounders (who traditionally do not like 'Germanic' types).

Quite a young pic of him though.
Click to expand...

And Manchester Ch show Best in Show all breeds yesterday.:)
 
Any pictures of them not stood out for showing I dont like to see the back end so dipped but then again it is probably just the way they are standing as it doesnt seem to be the case in the relaxed dog standing behind this one
 
Yep, there are plenty of pics and videos of all the dogs except the first two (one being very dead, one being quite lately dead but never worked) gaiting, and being worked.

When I see a pic of vid of one of the 'Alsatians' owned by this small cabal of campainers all using each others dogs, either doing a track, some focus heelwork, a retrieve over a hurdle or A-frame or doing a courage test, I'll be very happy.

I do undertand what you mean re standing, positions, I've bored the pants off everyone on here showing my dogs pushed and pulled into various stances, and standing naturally, and if you not the crafty foot position of Elmo's handler :p
The pro shots with the green grass and the bright red dogs are often erm, enhanced, shall we say!!!

To me though, the grey dog is the ideal.
 
Personally I think if people want to take all the colour-faded, soft-eared, shy-temperament, white, unathletic dogs and call them 'Alsations' it would be good for the German Shepherd breed.
Being honest, if a lot of these dogs had been bred in Germany they would have been culled.
For those that don't know, every GSD bred in Germany, Czech etc has to have a breed examination and working qualifications (Schutzhund). Any pups in the litter which dont come up to scratch (according to the Breedmeister) must be culled.
Its an awful shame that the original GSD breed, a working breed unsurpassed in police, security and border patrol work, individuals of which was imported before the war, through indiscriminate breeding become this sad, unrecognisable travesty of a noble dog. If they want to call them 'Alsations'let them!!!
 
God, but I'm so tempted to join in with this discussion. Mustn't!!

Think dogs with heads and faces like girls, think collapsed or collapsing pasterns, think feet that would never stand up to a DAY of work, and then I ask the question, with those awful roach backed things, if they were let off the lead, and allowed to stand naturally, is that what they'd look like? Honestly?

Sorry, I said that I mustn't, so I wont! :D

Alec.

Ets, as a footnote, C_C, that WUSV dog is a handsome animal! a.
 
in the pics I keep thinking that the straight back dog looks a darn more awkward than the others.. like he might get a stiff neck ;)
 
I know next to nothing about GSDs (or Alsations for that matter:D), but I've looked at a few working dogs of various breeds over the years.

Yes, Hank (can't read the rest of his name), the WUSV champion, is a nice dog and the type I like. I don't think I could own a dog I didn't like the look of but I am not tolerant of fools either, whether on two legs or four! It may be the way he is standing but he looks light in the back end to me.

When I wanted a GSD for self protection, after having some undesirable visitors, I deliberately bought from Polish/Slovak breeding, making a 1,200 mile round trip to collect the pup from her polish breeder. Frankly, the stories of UK breeding scared me! I was also warned about some German dogs that, I was told, are primarily show dogs but have passed a basic working test.

When I bought Willis's book, I had a quick flip through to look at the pictures. I found myself saying "Oh, I like that" to the pictures in the front of the book, but more and more "Yuck!". I then realised the pictures were in chronological order. (Oh dear, now I've made even more enemies!:().

A working dog of any breed is merely half the formula and I sometimes feel a breeder would have done better to have got a service off the trainer! But I'm here to learn and I'm a good listener so, if someone is prepared to persuade me I'm wrong, I am all ears. By the way, what would be the definition of "work" and what are the dogs expected to do? I heard they were originally bred to guard arable fields against marauding livestock before wire fences, but maybe that is just a tale.
 
I think there's also a case of people confusing 'level' with 'straight'. The BACK is supposed to be straight. The BACK is just one part of the backLINE which starts and the wirthers and ends with the croup where it joins the tail.

The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, long withers and via the straight back towards the slightly sloping croup, without visible interruption.

That's the FCI/WUSV breed standard. It's how the judge interprets it on the day. Straight? If I hold a pencil at an angle, the pencil is still straight.
 
Dry Rot said:
By the way, what would be the definition of "work" and what are the dogs expected to do? I heard they were originally bred to guard arable fields against marauding livestock before wire fences, but maybe that is just a tale.
Click to expand...

Yes, an invisible fence was the original usage. Also to keep the wooly jumpers out of the crop fields.
Schutzhund, now called IPO was introduced as a breed selection tool, which has now become more of a sport, which Hank is currently the world champion of ;)
That was a young picture, there are more recent pics of him looking more substantial.

Tracking, obedience, protection. There are plenty of videos of the WUSV championships in Austria on Youtube. A British dog came 7th, highest ever placing.
He also has his German breed survey so is considered an excellent specimen for breeding.
 
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Rather than try to explain the working qualifications myself, google 'Schutzhund' . All dogs must pass the BH before being allowed to take part in the Sch programme, the first grade is Sch1, then Sch2 and the hardest Sch3.
 
CaveCanem said:
Yes, an invisible fence was the original usage. Also to keep the wooly jumpers out of the crop fields.
Schutzhund, now called IPO was introduced as a breed selection tool, which has now become more of a sport, which Hank is currently the world champion of ;)
That was a young picture, there are more recent pics of him looking more substantial.

Tracking, obedience, protection. There are plenty of videos of the WUSV championships in Austria on Youtube. A British dog came 7th, highest ever placing.
He also has his German breed survey so is considered an excellent specimen for breeding.
Click to expand...

My bitch is by a Sch 3 dog (also WUSV 7th - 5th place, Kkl 2??) but the dam is only Sch 1 (novice trainer).

Her maternal grand parents are both Sch 3 (the g/f 2xWUSV). The majority of her ancestors on both sides are Sch 3 and many were WUSV World Champion participants. I did realise the importance of these titles (without fully understanding them) before deciding to buy.

She is the cleverest thing I have even encountered on four legs but definitely not a family pet!:D I haven't seen a tink for ages.;)
 
It used to be, KKLI is recommended for breeding, KKL2 is OK for breeding, but there is no such thing as KKL2 now, just the one breed survey result, recommended for breeding or not recommended for breeding.
To pass the Koerung the dog must have low hips and elbows, the AD (20k endurance test off a bike) at least IPOI (SchI as was) and a show grading. The dogs must pass a courage test on the day of the survey. Dog is also weighed and measured.
Progeny from survey class I parents get pink papers, without, they get white papers, I think it's a good system and there are people in the UK working and training and putting their dogs through the survey themselves rather than paying megabucks to send them to Germany and getting other people to do it for them :)

My young dog's parents are both WUSV competitors also.

As you said in an earlier post, there is the danger of just falling for SchIII all over the pedigree in some dogs - the best thing is to do your research and if you want a dog capable of work, either see the sire or dam do a demo in front of you (even a bitch off a litter should be capable of some heelwork or a hold and bark) or watch some videos on YouTube. If a breeder is selling the pup on the strength of their working heritage, they should be delighted to show you what their dogs can do.
 
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And you will find a lot of the working dogs are black sable, sable, black, grey sable- and you will NEVER find any of these colours doing well in the showring....
and sorry- CaveCanem is right...I should have said IPO not Sch
 
In fairness there are a couple of patterned sables doing well, Ch Idol vom Haus am Lecher Weg being one and his bitework is very good too :)
The Nikonis kennel has always had good strong sables too.

But agree, solid sables and blacks not so much. I think Fouranfass are breeding some nice dual-purpose black dogs. The last black dog to do very well in the ring was Star of Cinsyl and that was back in the 1980s.

Likewise the number of 'mahogany' and black dogs in trials is rare!! But they are out there.

PMP, yes, seen most of the comparison sites going!! But interesting all the same.

The breed is a very young one and by it's very nature, with the Sieger show etc promoting certain dogs over others, it's not surprising the shape of the breed has changed, for good or ill. It's unfortunate there has been such a split between the show and working type.

The 1973 dog, Dick von Adeloga, is recognised as one of the very few GSDs with perfect proportions. He had a very good son in the UK when I was a nipper.
 
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stormox said:
And you will find a lot of the working dogs are black sable, sable, black, grey sable- and you will NEVER find any of these colours doing well in the showring....
and sorry- CaveCanem is right...I should have said IPO not Sch
Click to expand...

Do you mean in Germany or the UK? I agree its unusual but there have been plenty of successful grey sables in the ring in the UK.


Ets. CC beat me to it :)
 
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