Also in vet forum - help me with a worming plan please?

sandi_84

sandi_84

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Ok my mum and I have had our horses at a livery yard for the last year and our YO did a worming plan and wormed our horses for us but now we are moving the ponies to a field and we will need to sort out our own worming plan.

The YO can't remember what wormer it was she used last time but they were wormed a couple of months ago.

I was thinking that the best thing to do would be to just start fresh when we move but I have no idea what wormer I should use, when I should start the new program and what wormer to use for the next time

Can anyone help me please?
 
I've just started my girl on verm x. It's totally natural and keeps gut healthy. They come in little pellets and you treat every three months for five days. My girl hates being wormed but she absolutely loves this stuff! The only thing with it is you need to usea chemical wormer once a year to get tape worm or maybe red worm.
 
Verm X is NOT a wormer and cannot be advertised as such. It might be good for tummies but it should not be relied on in any way for worming. As the Advertising Standards people made very clear to them a while back....:-))

The key worming you must do annually is for tapeworm (NB ideally you get vet to blood test for this and only worm for it if test is positive) and worming for the encysted stage of small redworm (which dont show on worm counts and can be very dangerous if they emerge en masse). The rest of the worms can either be picked up from regular worm counts, symptoms occurring or be dealt with via the wormers you will be doing for tape and encysted.

Pramox would cover both tapeworm and encysted small redworm in one product. Slightly unhelpful that YO cant tell you what the last wormer was - do they know what it was intended to worm for?

If they knew what they were doing then given the timing it might have been a tapewormer (autumn and spring worming) rather than an encysted wormer (winter). If it was for tapeworm then you might want to use Equest now for encysted redworm and then tapeworm again in spring with a standalone tapewormer (Equitape). Pramox is pretty powerful so I would only use that if the previous wormer didnt cover either of encysted or tapes (and also only use on a healthy horse and not near any other treatment eg flu vacc)

Any of the worm count type companies will provide a worming calendar. Important things to get genned up for (no more YO to rely on) is learning what ingredients tackle what worm types, when they should be used and what products have what ingredients.

Worm them and then keep them on the old pasture for several days so that any drug resistant worms are plopped onto that, and have a chance to breed with non resistant worms in the soil. Then move them to clean pasture. If you moved them onto clean fields straight away they would be expelling 100% wormer resistant worms in their poo and they would multiply on their clean land. At least thats the latest thinking.

I use Westgate labs for worm counts but find these the best summaries of what wormer has what
http://wormers-direct.co.uk/ingredients.html
http://wormers-direct.co.uk/brands.html

and here is a worming calendar
http://wormers-direct.co.uk/calendar.html

hope this helps!!
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Verm X is NOT a wormer and cannot be advertised as such. It might be good for tummies but it should not be relied on in any way for worming. As the Advertising Standards people made very clear to them a while back....:-))

The key worming you must do annually is for tapeworm (NB ideally you get vet to blood test for this and only worm for it if test is positive) and worming for the encysted stage of small redworm (which dont show on worm counts and can be very dangerous if they emerge en masse). The rest of the worms can either be picked up from regular worm counts, symptoms occurring or be dealt with via the wormers you will be doing for tape and encysted.

Pramox would cover both tapeworm and encysted small redworm in one product. Slightly unhelpful that YO cant tell you what the last wormer was - do they know what it was intended to worm for?

If they knew what they were doing then given the timing it might have been a tapewormer (autumn and spring worming) rather than an encysted wormer (winter). If it was for tapeworm then you might want to use Equest now for encysted redworm and then tapeworm again in spring with a standalone tapewormer (Equitape). Pramox is pretty powerful so I would only use that if the previous wormer didnt cover either of encysted or tapes (and also only use on a healthy horse and not near any other treatment eg flu vacc)

Any of the worm count type companies will provide a worming calendar. Important things to get genned up for (no more YO to rely on) is learning what ingredients tackle what worm types, when they should be used and what products have what ingredients.

Worm them and then keep them on the old pasture for several days so that any drug resistant worms are plopped onto that, and have a chance to breed with non resistant worms in the soil. Then move them to clean pasture. If you moved them onto clean fields straight away they would be expelling 100% wormer resistant worms in their poo and they would multiply on their clean land. At least thats the latest thinking.

I use Westgate labs for worm counts but find these the best summaries of what wormer has what
http://wormers-direct.co.uk/ingredients.html
http://wormers-direct.co.uk/brands.html

and here is a worming calendar
http://wormers-direct.co.uk/calendar.html

hope this helps!!
Click to expand...

Thanks that was really helpful! It was the stuff that covered tapeworm that they had last but they just can't remember what it was called. Unfortunately we just let them get on with it and paid the money it cost. The only thing I actually learned about worming whilst there (my own fault really) was how to give the wormer to the horse :o
Oh well looks like it's reading time for me :D
 
When I went to get wormer for my herd at the weekend I was advised this option. I do however have foals and one still on her mum so limited.

Panacur Guard 5 day wormer for encysted small redworms now in January. Then every 3 months to worm count. But worm count does not cover tape worm.

So I've still not decided. I'm going to wait till foal is weaned.
 
My name is Nick Thompson, I'm a vet based in Bath with a specialist interest in homeopathy, acupuncture, herbal medicine and nutrition for horses. I've been Veterinary Consultant to Verm-X for the last 5 years.*

I'd like to clarify a few things here please:*

1. Verm-X cannot be described as a wormer because, like most herbal products, it is not licensed, not because it is not efficacious. Shakespeare said 'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet'.*
2. I have seen hundreds of ‘before and after’ FEC from horses using herbal preparations with perfect results.
3. The best worm program, for me, is the one that uses the least pharmaceuticals, but maintains a healthy gut with an epg of less than 200 and low tapes.
* * *
Of course, good pasture management and general stable management are essential.*Regular FECs and annual Tapeworm bloods are equally important.
* * *
Personally, I recommend to my clients Verm-X to reduce the amount of drugs required, year in, year out.*

People making derogatory and false comments without disclosing their true identity I treat with suspicion, Verm-X and I are pleased to stand by their products and we are happy to talk with anybody openly.
 
Sorry Dora that is a very out of date way of running a worming programme no longer recommended as too much resistance to certain products already to make it viable. What you need is to target the right worms at the right time in the right horses and for that you need fecs. Keep moxidectin for the winter encysted dose so that it isn't used all through the year.
 
Verm-XAdvice said:
My name is Nick Thompson, I'm a vet based in Bath with a specialist interest in homeopathy, acupuncture, herbal medicine and nutrition for horses. I've been Veterinary Consultant to Verm-X for the last 5 years.*

I'd like to clarify a few things here please:*

1. Verm-X cannot be described as a wormer because, like most herbal products, it is not licensed, not because it is not efficacious. Shakespeare said 'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet'.*
2. I have seen hundreds of ‘before and after’ FEC from horses using herbal preparations with perfect results.
3. The best worm program, for me, is the one that uses the least pharmaceuticals, but maintains a healthy gut with an epg of less than 200 and low tapes.
* * *
Of course, good pasture management and general stable management are essential.*Regular FECs and annual Tapeworm bloods are equally important.
* * *
Personally, I recommend to my clients Verm-X to reduce the amount of drugs required, year in, year out.*

People making derogatory and false comments without disclosing their true identity I treat with suspicion, Verm-X and I are pleased to stand by their products and we are happy to talk with anybody openly.
Click to expand...

Noone has said anything derogatory or false on this post. Verm x cannot be described as a wormer as it isnt licenced, and it isnt licenced because it doesnt have the required proper testing to show that it works consistently and scientifically rather than anecdotes from individual users (whose horses may be naturally low risk) or those who have a vested interest in promoting it.

I can provide a link to the ASA ruling forcing verm x to change their advert wording but Im sure you're aware of it.

I have no issue with Verm-x being used as a complementary product to a proper worm count and worming programmed but it is poor practice to suggest as a poster did that it is a recommended alternative to tape worming/blood testing or encysted redworm worming at the current time.
 
Borderreiver- I'm not sure it is that out of date seeing as that is what most people reccomend. Of course you need to treat for certain worms at certain times of year but this method is still widely used. Am I certainly use it together will good field management
 
It is certainly what most people used to recommend. The BVA, educated SQP's, all parasitology experts, and even the wormer manufacturers themselves no longer recommend rotational programmes. One notable expert Prof Sandy Love described this method of worming over the last 30 years as leading to the mess of resistance problems we have today.
Good field management is of course an excellent help in worm control. However it is impossible to rotate drugs as there are so few effective ones. You need the right one at the right time though half the time there is actually no need to dose at all for most well looked after horses.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Noone has said anything derogatory or false on this post. Verm x cannot be described as a wormer as it isnt licenced, and it isnt licenced because it doesnt have the required proper testing to show that it works consistently and scientifically rather than anecdotes from individual users (whose horses may be naturally low risk) or those who have a vested interest in promoting it.

I can provide a link to the ASA ruling forcing verm x to change their advert wording but Im sure you're aware of it.

I have no issue with Verm-x being used as a complementary product to a proper worm count and worming programmed but it is poor practice to suggest as a poster did that it is a recommended alternative to tape worming/blood testing or encysted redworm worming at the current time.
Click to expand...
Verm-X does not require a licence by the authorities because it does not contain any pharmaceuticals. I think this is pretty clear? Nothing, no pharmaceuticals, no herbs or any other treatment should take the place of FECs for redworm and blood tests for tapes. One's response to the results of these tests should be dictated by the level of problem, the probability of encysted red worms, the health and age of the horse and the quality of the pasture management. Verm-X is another of the dozen or so tools one can use in maintaining good gut health.
 
Borderreiver said:
It is certainly what most people used to recommend. The BVA, educated SQP's, all parasitology experts, and even the wormer manufacturers themselves no longer recommend rotational programmes. One notable expert Prof Sandy Love described this method of worming over the last 30 years as leading to the mess of resistance problems we have today.
Good field management is of course an excellent help in worm control. However it is impossible to rotate drugs as there are so few effective ones. You need the right one at the right time though half the time there is actually no need to dose at all for most well looked after horses.
Click to expand...
We wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, Borderreiver. An interesting aspect of Verm-X is that, because it uses herbs, it will never induce worm-resistance. Our vet recommends it as part of a well structured program to reduce the pressure on pharmaceuticals, all of which will, at some point, induce wormer-resistant worms. He says 'We do not want to end up with an MRSA type situation in horses like they have in human hospitals'.
 
Worm First frosts with Equest Pramox
Tapeworm in spring, e.g. Equitape (you may choose to omit this in low risk situations)
Worm egg count March, June, Sept. Worm IF NEEDED according to results (very often not!)

Poo pick, cross graze and rest if possible to break the worms life cycle.

Wormer drug rotation is very difficult as different wormer drugs kill different worms. You will still have to worm with certain drugs once a year anyhow
 
Claribella - vermin x has not been proven as a wormer, and you would want your horse to be clear of worms before starting on it, so a worm count would be good.
 
Ok I should have clarified when I posted this that yes I know it's not a wormer but it does help with gut health and like someone has already said in a min there will be a epidemic of worms if we dont start wormng intelligently instead of religiously when it might not even be needed. Of course I worm for encrusted red worm and tape but I use this inbetween combined with worm counts.
 
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