alternative/ natural horsemanship type folks (vent)

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and nor do i. i never use draw reins or a martingale. spurs are used to refine the aid at advanced level only, not to make a horse go forward, in my book. a whip is used very occasionally and lightly.
i wasn't slagging off NH, if you bothered to read my post at all.

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I had a fall 3 years ago and since then, I have developed arthritis (sp) in my spine meaning I get alot of pain and even though I ride every day I am not as strong as I used to be.

So I ride in roller spurs and with a schooling whip to back my weak leg up, and this allows me to school my large wb to the level I would like without any pain...

Oh and I use a martingale on horses that need one...and have used draw reins on horses that need them -

The common sense approach would be to use something if you need to use it, and dont use them if you dont.
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and nor do i. i never use draw reins or a martingale. spurs are used to refine the aid at advanced level only, not to make a horse go forward, in my book. a whip is used very occasionally and lightly.
i wasn't slagging off NH, if you bothered to read my post at all.

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Was this aimed at me??!!! I DO practice NH and wasn't commenting on your post!
 
'Gadgets' is just another word for equipment...and if used kindly, are no real problem, IMO.
If you think about side saddle, you have to use a whip, and if you think about RDA riders, often 'gadgets' are a necessary means to an end.
As long as the horse (and maybe rider
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) are happy and healthy, that's what matters.
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In the nicest sense, how much of a result do you get?

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A forward going, responsive horse with good manners on the ground as well as ridden and as a result of being asked and encouraged not nagged and 'broken'.
It always amazes me when someone asks a question on this forum about a badly behaved horse - the majority (not all mind) of answers usually revert to placing some gadget on the horse to solve a problem. NH tends to treat the cause of the problem first and not mask it with a stronger bit, flash noseband, martingale etc.

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I meant to what level - this approach clearly suits you to the level that you are at, but if you wanted to do PSG dressage or jump 1.40's, do you think you would be more open in your approach, and do people actually use the holistic approach when competing at that sort of level?

I dont really get the flash comment...
 
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had a fall 3 years ago and since then, I have developed arthritis (sp) in my spine meaning I get alot of pain and even though I ride every day I am not as strong as I used to be.

So I ride in roller spurs and with a schooling whip to back my weak leg up, and this allows me to school my large wb to the level I would like without any pain...

Oh and I use a martingale on horses that need one...and have used draw reins on horses that need them -

The common sense approach would be to use something if you need to use it, and dont use them if you dont.
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I sort of see what you're saying, however - I have a prolapsed disc in my lower back with degenerative disc disease and also very limited mobility in one shoulder due to a severed nerve. I manage to ride without any aides. I'm not criticising you in any way, you don't have to justify yourself to me. I just wanted to add this it doesn't have to mean the use of gadgets.
 
Gadgets eh? What about the monty roberts dually headcollar and a carrot stick? Nothing wrong with gadgets IMO - if you need a gadget use a gadget. if they are used correctly they are better for the horse anyway ? Plus monty and parelli are always in hackamores - they are vert severe in some cases

I ride my pony in a snaffle but she was in a dutch gag when I bought her but I will still use a gag if needs be.
 
Yes but it is horses for courses - I school using all lateral work, tempo changes etc...also school SJing quite large (1.20 ish) and therefore need a strong leg and seat - my horse is ridden in a saddle, flash noseband bridle and boots by the way, and in a straight bar rubber snaffle.... no gadgets.

It is harder to do that sort of thing with a weak leg as I have and therefore I have spurs and a whip to back up my leg aid.
 
It makes absolutely no difference what level you are riding at. Many NH trainers have trained people in high level competition. MR and Parelli are not the only trainers. There are many many more whose methods are exceptional but they don't play up the media front.
What bit about the flash noseband comment do you not get?
 
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Gadgets eh? What about the monty roberts dually headcollar and a carrot stick? Nothing wrong with gadgets IMO - if you need a gadget use a gadget. if they are used correctly they are better for the horse anyway ? Plus monty and parelli are always in hackamores - they are vert severe in some cases [ QUOTE ]


Again - here is the misconception that MR and Parelli are the only NH trainers out there!!! I've never used a Dually and can't remember when I last used a carrot stick!
Many traditional gadgets are used to mask the problem whereas NH gadgets are used to help work through the problem. I use only a rope headcollar and 12ft line.
 
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Gadgets eh? What about the monty roberts dually headcollar and a carrot stick? Nothing wrong with gadgets IMO - if you need a gadget use a gadget. if they are used correctly they are better for the horse anyway ? Plus monty and parelli are always in hackamores - they are vert severe in some cases

I ride my pony in a snaffle but she was in a dutch gag when I bought her but I will still use a gag if needs be.

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Whats a Dually Headcollar and whats a carrot stick???!!!
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re flash...

What is wrong with one?

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Flash nosebands - I simply don't like them, especially cranked up tight. if you have to do that to get compliance from your horse you are either trying to work it above it's ability or something else is wrong. In fact all of mine will work happily without nosebands at all, and we only put them on loosely to make the face look 'finished' and conventional. ( the you as in 'one' here, not referring to you specifically FF)
but then I am an oddity as i don't like to carry a whip when schooling, or like a tight rein contact - but I am no tree hugger
 
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re flash...

What is wrong with one?

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Used to hold the mouth shut??!!! Seems to be a bit of a fashionable thing to have. Its often counter productive when schooling. If the horse is opening its mouth its a reaction to something - the bit, the riders hands etc.
 
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re flash...

What is wrong with one?

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Used to hold the mouth shut??!!! Seems to be a bit of a fashionable thing to have. Its often counter productive when schooling. If the horse is opening its mouth its a reaction to something - the bit, the riders hands etc.

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I am sitting on my hands!

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The flash is used to keep the bit still in the horse's mouth, which some horses prefer. It also stops them from crossing their jaw.

Again, if a horse needs one, it should have one.

The watcher - I never have contact unless I am schooling, and even then it is light - the 'outline' comes from seat/leg.
 
Sorry - I completely disagree. A tight noseband of any kind is uncomfortable for the horse, and it seems silly for riders to insist on tying the horse's mouth tightly shut when one of their goals is to get the horse to relax his jaw! Horses can't relax in the jaw, or at the poll, or in the neck or back, when they are stiffening their jaw in reaction to a tight noseband. Try this yourself:, tense your jaw, then while KEEPING it tense, try to relax your neck muscles and those in your upper back. You can't do it!!!! No human can - and neither can a horse.
 
Kerilli - you'll get use to this forum, when you use the quick reply button it looks like you are replying the the last poster. This is not the case. I was supporting NH by saying I don't use gadget, I was not being unpolite to you personally.
 
'The watcher - I never have contact unless I am schooling, and even then it is light - the 'outline' comes from seat/leg.'

I agree, that is completely correct of course. Sadly a good many riders will crank the mouth shut to stop bit evasion and then take a strong contact (polite expression for balancing on the rein perhaps)

There are good points to NH techiques, and good points to the more conventional methods as taught by the BHS and others. For me, the best horsepeople have a foot in each camp, and an understanding of why they are using the methods they choose
 
umm... how on earth does a flash keep the bit still in the horse's mouth? the horse and the rider's hands through the reins are the only things that can affect whether the bit moves, surely?
my dressage trainer (a true classical master) will only allow a correctly-fitting drop noseband (i.e. not tight) or a loose (not cranked) cavesson. he'd have an absolute fit if i presented a horse to him in a flash!
 
There are many ways to solve a problem...yours is not the only way...
If your horse works in a cavesson noseband, or bridleless, fine..but everyone is in a different situation.
Some of us for example, have nerveless two year olds to contend with....LOL!
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Yes yes I get your point - about NH - and I have to admit the NH lass I had with my pony couldnt stand Parelli or Monty but in general I have found SOME (not all) NH methods s bit wishy washy for me and my pony - she needed real dominance - like horses are in the wild - when they piss each other off they bite and kick and squeal and use a very violent pecking order sometimes - now I have never been physically violent to my horse but I have used agressive sounds and gestures and it has worked - we are best buddy's now and have never been closer - she knows I am boss and thats that.

But its horses for courses -
 
a Dually headcollar is a pressure-point controller headcollar. a carrot stick is a hard orange 'wand' with a long lash, never ever ever used to hit the horse, but to gently prod it to get a bit of respect, or, in the case of the lash, used to desensitize it. i'm not exactly an expert on this, but i've got one, and use it very occasionally.
 
It seems to be an ongoing thing this - I started this thread and while you're rolling your eyes and yawning about slagging of nh again ... er... I didn't. I said I thought there were elements of sense in most 'alternative' methods, some more than others.
*what I said was* I was annoyed by the 'our method is so much better than the prevailing method of .....(insert something from Bonanza) ... which is what all you lot do.'
I don't have a problem if you want to follow an 'alternative approach' it all blends in as far as I can see, good horsemanship is good horsemanship, and smart marketing is smart marketing. I remember some ancient guru of showjumping, possibly Harry Llewellen, riding without a bridle, he was just good, is all.
What I object to, and what I initially explained quite clearly was my beef was this nonsense about roping, branding and mass violence. Because some poor souls, who have nothing better to do than Be Shocked believe you, because they have absolutely no idea how classical riding evolved and developed, how children are taught in good riding schools and pony club.
So before you all throw your carrot sticks and bouncy balls out of your pram, why not read the original post? I'm perfectly happy for you to train your horse how you like - you may have a point. But must you try to cash in on it by telling lies about other people?
 
Never needed to use either, thank fully. In fact, I'm trying to think what I do, I think I just say quietly "squidge over please darling" and he moves!!!!!!!!!!!!! I must be blessed with a damn easy horse!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BUT I have forever used a schooling whip (it has no vegetable provenence at all I am afraid) the thin end to push away and correct the thick end to massage and praise. Since I was a lass (and I promise you, Noah wasn't elderly) - I was taught that by a cavalry officer!
He didn't have a marketing degree though.
 
I don't tell lies about anyone. I have been riding for 25 years, 18/19 of those using traditional methods and beliefs. After a particurly troublesome time with my TB I looked for alternative methods to get a result I was happy with. Parelli and MR are very gimicky in places hence I use methods from unheard people. My sister spent 7 years in Oz- she was married to one of the best horsemen there, a lot of my training comes directly from there. There's no need for you to assume I know nothing about riding schools and pony clubs- I was raised in them!! Also, don't presume I am childish enought to throw a tantrum when someone doesn't agree with me - you can please yourself!
 
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