alternative/ natural horsemanship type folks (vent)

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Crikey I never knew I, and so many others were so inept as to have to use a .... FLASH Noseband!!
The skewbald makes a good point and is only saying (I think) that its the marketing that winds her up by slating more traditional approaches. Personally i don't give a toss what methods people use as long as they and their horses are happy! I'll keep my real opinions to myself!
 
crikey, i sincerely hope that isn't all aimed at me, even though it's a response to my post. perhaps you could have been a bit more careful where you stuck it, as it were.
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i'm not the one rolling my eyes and yawning. as i said, there's good things to be taken from both schools... most schools, in fact, imho.
roping and branding is very Wild West, not exactly an English School of Horsemanship tradition. i'm not quite sure why you're mentioning the two in the same paragraph. *shrugs, walks away from thread*
 
quote I was taught that by a cavalry officer quote

Is that where so called 'BHS/traditional ' riding methods originated? From the Military?

So are you saying the modern 'BHS' way is actually the new way, a fad
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Is' NH ' then the old way , the real traditional way ?
 
Well then if <font color="red"> you </font> don't say those things, I don't have an issue with <font color="red"> you </font> , do I?
Did it teach you to calm down, this nh malarkey?
 
You accused me of telling lies - or did you not??!!
The NH debate has been done to death. I've never started a post to directly attack any method. I now agree that the marketing of NH methods is doing it more harm than good.
 
I practise 100% common sence which might be some tradition things that NH have stolen and re-names as games! Couldn't give a flying toss if what I do is wrong or right just that my horse benifits from what I do with her and she's happy
 
sorry kerelli, just used quick reply, not meant as a reply to your post.
This is getting all very confusing.
My original point was just what you have just said!
Yes, alternative methods are fine. But why compare and contrast them with something that frankly doesn't even exist in this country?
It's a bit like saying, 'I'm a vegetarian (which is fine) because I just can't stand the way you guys cut the throats of goats at the dinner table (which is daft)'
That was the whole point of the post - I just had a local nh-er tell an entire youth group about her methods (not horsey kids by and large, though a few who take lessons) and how fab they are (fine) and then go on to say how cruel conventional horsemen are (red faced BHS qualified sort in the back row was me) as her lovely gentle methods were so much better than our beatings brandings and throwing horses to the ground, where *often* (honest) they would break their necks!
I wish I hadn't started it, as obviously a lot of people are unable to distinguish between a criticsim of their methods, and a criticism of a the way *some people* promote them by telling downright lies about others.
 
Oh hands up I yawned! And I didn't roll my eyes I smiled - like this
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I thought that normally mean that the comment was good natured. Now I might sigh... sigh...
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For those that keep on and on about peeps learning the 'NH' philosophy doing so because they are ' soooo afraid to ride their horses '

Visit the Spanish Riding School of Vienna and have a chat, ask them how long they work with their horse/s on the ground before riding them. Ask them their reasoning behind it. I bet it's not because they are afraid
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This is where MR and Parelli fall down- their methods are all very well for western riders who are roping and cutting. This is why I use lesser known NH trainers who can help me improve my horse and my ridden work and apply the methods to european style riding. Just be careful when you say 'you're cashing in by telling lies' - it sounds like you are directing it a someone on here - which I now presume you're not.
 
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You accused me of telling lies - or did you not??!!
The NH debate has been done to death. I've never started a post to directly attack any method. I now agree that the marketing of NH methods is doing it more harm than good.

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Why are you getting so het up if you are so bored....are you to closeted to see that a balanced common sense approach works?

HORSES FOR COURSES!

I would love to see you come and do NH with the yard of young racehorses...
 
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You accused me of telling lies - or did you not??!!


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No not you personally just a general tendency. I apologise if it came across that way. And also if this appears twice because at teh moment it won't appear at all.
 
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Why are you getting so het up if you are so bored....are you to closeted to see that a balanced common sense approach works?

HORSES FOR COURSES!

I would love to see you come and do NH with the yard of young racehorses...

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LOL - is that an invite!!
 
But Annie, I agree with you.
I also don't expect they would say, 'because the pesky dressage team do so insist on tying their horses legs together and beating them with cacti beneath the hot mexican sun'
because they have a life
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I'm guessing the real traditional way was in some cultures, awesome (eg native americans?) and in others, pretty brutal. But then life expectancy wasn't up to much was it? Human or horse.
 
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Why are you getting so het up if you are so bored....are you to closeted to see that a balanced common sense approach works?

HORSES FOR COURSES!

I would love to see you come and do NH with the yard of young racehorses...

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LOL - is that an invite!!

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You are more than welcome, they join up very easily, especiually the colts...
 
I think people interpret 'common sense' in different ways. I am not closeted in any way, I already explained that I've spend 18/19 yrs doing it one way but now I realise there are other ways. I'm not perfect and will 'shock horror' shout at my mare if she's naughty or whatever. I also mix and match methods to suit. I am a teensy bit defensive of NH methods to a degree because on this forum we are a minority. I don't want to come across as some kind of do-gooder who has tunnel vision for my way.
 
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MR has worked with a lot of young racehorses - quite successfully.

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I know..


I am not saying it does not work, I am saying that it is not the be all and end all and common sense is far better!
 
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Both NH and BHS are just glorfied differing examples of the same thing - COMMON SENSE. Neither are cheap either (anyone seen the BHS exam fees recently?)

I spent nearly 3 years working &amp; training in a good BHS yard so know the practices very well of the organisation. Some of it may well be old school and a bit anal, but the whole idea at the basic levels is to do stuff safely and competently. Which I think is the basis to any form of horsemanship. And yes, I have seen NH being used to - the yard itself employed someone for a more natural approach.

I'm all for people having differing views (heck I don't agree with some of the BHS stuff I was taught) but what gets my goat is when the so called NH group stick their heads above the parapet and start going on and on and on about how good their ways are.

Take the carrot stick as a way of desensitising a horse; I could do the exact same thing with my schooling whip. Or the use of "gadgets" - the Monty Roberts headcollar is certainly a gadget!

"Ooooo everything must be in a snaffle and no noseband" - why??? I changed my old share pony's bit from a snaffle to a pelham - why? Because in the snaffle he was unstopable. I'd far far rather ride a horse or pony in a so called stronger bit and use it lightly than haul a snaffle to the pony's back teeth to stop.
 
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Both NH and BHS are just glorfied differing examples of the same thing - COMMON SENSE. Neither are cheap either (anyone seen the BHS exam fees recently?)

I spent nearly 3 years working &amp; training in a good BHS yard so know the practices very well of the organisation. Some of it may well be old school and a bit anal, but the whole idea at the basic levels is to do stuff safely and competently. Which I think is the basis to any form of horsemanship. And yes, I have seen NH being used to - the yard itself employed someone for a more natural approach.

I'm all for people having differing views (heck I don't agree with some of the BHS stuff I was taught) but what gets my goat is when the so called NH group stick their heads above the parapet and start going on and on and on about how good their ways are.

Take the carrot stick as a way of desensitising a horse; I could do the exact same thing with my schooling whip. Or the use of "gadgets" - the Monty Roberts headcollar is certainly a gadget!

"Ooooo everything must be in a snaffle and no noseband" - why??? I changed my old share pony's bit from a snaffle to a pelham - why? Because in the snaffle he was unstopable. I'd far far rather ride a horse or pony in a so called stronger bit and use it lightly than haul a snaffle to the pony's back teeth to stop.

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There goes the voice of reason!
 
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Its not what natural horsemanship does IMO - its how they market it!!

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Well said!
Cut through the bunny hugging and marketing and NH has some very good idears,combine that with a bit of commen sense and you have a fab way to look after horses.

I would never beat a horse for the hell of it but am definatly not above giving it a clout if needs be.
 
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A carrot stick is mainly used as an extension of the arm- to desensitize the horse from a safe distance.

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i use a litle bit of NH in certain areas of my work, but i never understand the point in one of those carrot stick thingys, i went to watch a demonstration the other week which was absolutly awful!!! and she used the carrot stick and showed off a bit smoothing down the wild ponies legs etc....

and then when it came to picking up the ponies feet it went mental as it wasnt used to close contact with a human!! SO WHAT IS THE POINT IN POKING A HORSE WITH A STICK????!!!!!


sophie xxx
 
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but thats not NH - asking your horse to move over ?

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IMO its just one of many exercises in NH - its all about teaching your horse about respecting your personal space. Not having followed Parelli or MR my understanding is that Parelli use the "Porcupine Game" go teach a horse to move over and respect your personal space - when I read about that in a magazine I wondered why it was called a game, if your horse doesn't listen when you ask him to move over you gently nudge and ask again. If you watch horses naturally in the herd they shake their head at whoever they want to move and if that doesn't work they push them with their head or turn their back end on them. As many people have already said in this thread - there's more than one way to skin a cat. Its all about common sense and what works for you and your horse.
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Here here, well said.

In the past I've had semi wild ponies to deal with but I was a child who didn't have to work. I used to sit on a bale of hay in the stable with a book and wait, wait and wait. Curiosity always got the better of the ponies who came to find out more about me. They realised that I was no threat and we moved forward from there. At the end of the day, its all about your appraoch, your manner and as so many people have said whatever works for you and your horse.
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I don't see natural horsemanship as anything more than good common sense most of the time. I have never used Pat Parelli's methods with any of my horses, but I have followed many of Richard Maxwell's books and by the end of September I will have had him up to all three of my horses.

I do ride in spurs, I go out and compete in BD most weekends, and I am very firm with my horses, but asking for some respect for my personal space goes a long way. Long lining (not long reining) is a great tool to have up your sleeve, especially when like me you have more than one horse to keep competition fit). Max's methods have also helped me with Troy immensely. Because of his guidance, Troy is fully halter trained. I know others have their foals at this stage also, but Troy was my first one and I did need guidance as to how to get him to step into the pressure as opposed to away from it.

Everyone uses some natural horsemanship (even though I hate the phrase) at some point in their horsey career, whether they know it or not. Plus, I know of a lot of professional riders who have benefitted from Max's way, including Britain's top SJs, eventers etc etc so I don't think it can be all as bad as some make out eh?
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Just as the professionals want the best for their horse and to get the improved performance, so do I!
 
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