Alternative to a Dutch Gag?

TeamWazz

TeamWazz

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I have a 17.1hh warmblood who is incredibly strong over a fence to the point I have lost all confidence on him recently. He's currently jumped in a dutch gag in the ring below the snaffle ring, but schooled in a simple eggbutt as hacking and schooling isn't a problem, it's only over a jump he becomes insane!

However I'm looking for an alternative to the dutch gag as I'm not a fan of it anymore and I don't think my horse is either! I'm hoping to event this year after a particularly bad year last year, and do some hunting, and need brakes in both plus the ability to make him sit back and actually listen to me and look at the fence rather than just tanking at it which leaves him flat and me petrified! :(
 
Can you ride with double reins? If so have you tried putting a rein on the very top andthen the very bottom of the gag and using the top as a snaffle and the bottom as a curb? I often find a double bridle is very effective on horses that just bog off, especially if he is fine in a snaffle for schooling/ hacking. Use the same mouthpiece as a snaffle for your bridoon and then just a plain weymouth. Alternatively, if he grabs and leans and then bogs off have you tried with a waterford?
 
Waterford if he's a leaner? Or a pelham/ kmblewick? How does he evade?

Or, 2 reins on the gag. It's a fine bit when used properly, I just really dislike it used with only one rein without roundings.
 
I thought about double reins but not confident to be able to differentiate between the two coming into a big xc fence or out hunting so would prefer not to go down that route.

When he sees the jump he tanks at it (could be in a perfectly nice collected canter as he schools beautifully) but the minute we turn towards the fence the canter becomes fast and flat, his head comes up and no checking from me helps, his head just goes further up in the air. He's in a grackle and martingale as well. I hate having to put so many gadgets on him - my other horse is in a snaffle and nothing else - but he truly is in another ballpark and I need to be able to rely on my brakes for our eventing this year!
 
If his head is coming up I'd try a kimblewick (the one with slots) first as it is designed to use with one rein. If that doesn't give you "enough" I'd go for a pelham, preferably with two reins.
I know a horse who really fought a dutch gag type bit but went like a dream in a kimblewick.

The slots give you the option to make it a bit stronger if you need to.
 
Was going to say a Cheltenam gag but although I have seen folks out hunting and eventing on the one rein, it really should be ridden with two reins so if you are not keen on that, it rules this excellent bit out.
 
I'd be wary of both a pelham or kimblewick. Our experience with a strong excitable showjumper needing a stronger bit out hunting is that both caused him to lean, then get the bit between his teeth and run. Advice from others in the feild suggests this is a common problem when switching from a gag.

You could play with the mouthpeice - see if a french link or single joint works better. Or a cherry roller if needed?

Or look at the wide range of slightly odder gags - the precision bit, the Pee wee, the butterfly flip. Those sorts of things.

If you ring a company like the Bit Bank then can give you advice and you can rent a bit to try - which is far better than having to buy the things!
 
cheltenham is a fantastic bit and if the horse is ok at all other times ,my horse has one for parties and its brilliant. i dont use 2 reins and dont have a problem. he also schools etc on a french link loose ring snaffle so still soft in the mouth
he has team chased ,hunted ,evented ,etc and has total brakes
 
Adding a Kineton noseband to his normal snaffle worked great for my thug when I was doing cross country or anything else he found particularly exciting.
 
The gag should always be ridden in two reins, if not then you are constantly using the curb action, which may be what is making him strong tbh.
 
Another who would try 2 reins on the gag, or a kineton.

The other thing you could try is a ported myler comfort snaffle with hooks, and use a back strap. Worked wonders for both a strong connie my instructor was schooling and the WB I ride!
 
It's not the gag that's making him strong - he's always in a gag. Plus as I say I can flat out gallop on a hack and have the strength in a simple eggbut to pull him back but he just gets very excitable over a jump. Just the way he is!

The reason I'm not wanting to deal with double reins is I had a horrible fall out hunting with my old horse who was hunted in a Pelham with double reins and he bolted with me and in my panic (bearing in mind I was only 14) couldn't differentiate between the two reins, dropped both and ended up being bolted with for about fifteen minutes (felt like hours) and then falling off and breaking three ribs! So not keen due to that past experience.

I will think about the kimblewick or thinking about biting the bullet and trying the Cheltenham with two as have heard great things about it.
 
That does sound quite scary Team Wazz. How about using two very different reins, though? E.g. I have a pair of very thick plaited reins on the snaffle part of my Pelham and a proper thin curb rein on the bottom. No idea if that's traditionally correct or not for turnout purposes, but they feel very different in the hand, even through gloves when travelling at un-asked for speeds ;)There's also a variety of different holds you can use with two reins - you don't always have to stick with snaffle between ring and little finger and curb between second and ring finger. If you google it there's quite a few ideas. Or you could knot curb rein on neck and only pick up when you need it? :)
 
That's one big horse to be out of control into a fence! This probably's not what you want to read - but I'm guessing is what you already know:
A well schooled horse rushing into a fence is in a panic. This can be for several known reasons (and loads more that we haven't figured out yet)! First is, it might hurt. I'm sure you've had qualified dentists/physios./etc to do checks. If nothing worrying was found, the panic could be running from constraint - bit, noseband, pulling hand. That deals with the physical - next there's the psychological. This could be from memory of a bad experience sometime in the horse's history. It can also be a heightened herd reflex (they're all running, I'd better run faster). Makes for a winning race horse but a rubbish hunter!
Sooo what to do? I'd go back to basics schooling over poles/small fences in the school with basic tack - soft bit, caveson noseband. If its obvious you're going to die, try putting on a market harborough martingale - it doesn't constrict but encourages horse look at fence/pole. If all goes ok, carry on with sj schooling (pref with trainer) before going over solid fences then hunting. Some good jumping horses just don't do x country but at least you'll have a good horse to swop for a hunting machine! Good Luck.
ps.Dutch gags are really good on right horse - just seems that yours isn't right horse.
 
Hi oldjumper, I've had the vet and physio out, the dentist is coming next week but more for a check up than due to this as both of my horses are due for a check up.

I have tried the reschooling but he's 13 and pretty set in his ways. There is also an element of him having been out of proper work due to various issues out with my control (old yard not having a working arena, moving and then him injuring his back) and he is the type who needs schooled twice a week and jumped once then hacked like every other day as he's naturally a very forward going, excitable and nervy horse. The way I like a horse to be but his jumping is now just taking the p***!!

I can find a video of his recent jumping if that would help you guys to help me (I SERIOUSLY appreciate all of this by the way) so long as I get no criticism - as I say have lost a lost of confidence and would like to boost it, not have it brought down even more! :)
 
Cheiro1 said:
A cheltnam gag is designed to lift the head, not drop it.

I would try a kineton nosebank instead of the grackle :)
Click to expand...

Yes, the Cheltenham gag lifts more, so probably wouldn't help? I would try the kimblewick - worked great on my old hunting mare, and she didn't lean at all.

Have you ever had a jumping lesson with someone experienced on the ground watching what happens - may be a good idea, you'd get more relevant advice than you would from a forum.
 
I would never criticise - especially anyone asking for help. Just answering as this is something I've come across several times in horses. Unfortunately there was a different solution to each one. The only common factor was - none of them was "taking the p***", that's a human trait, horses just react to past or present events. Rereading your posts, it sounds as though the horse doesn't have a 'bad' (ie desensitised) mouth therefore going for a stronger bit is likely to make things worse rather than better. This is backed up by the fact it's throwing it's head up - hard mouther pullers tend to put head down and lean on the bit. Using stronger bits and more restrictive nosebands can make the situation worse. You say you've done re-schooling over fences. At what stage did it start to go pear-shaped?
 
Kimblewick sounding more and more like an option. Will check out some reviews and see if I can rent it via the bit bank. I have had many jumping lessons but as I say this was prior to our last six months which has just been setback after setback. Got two flatwork lessons this week and perhaps will do a sj lesson next week once the kimblewick arrives and test drive it with an instructor watching.

Out of the two slots in a kimblewick which is the best to use?
 
My mare sounds very similar. I use pelham reins - so only one rein in your hand but the rein splits into 2 a short distance from the bit. So one on the snaffle, the other on the third ring. I also use a leather curb on the dutch gag.

I am not a fan of lots of tack but it works, she is happy and not fighting with me all the time.
 
I use a NS Universal on my very strong horse (who also schools happily in a snaffle). She came in a Dutch gag but neiter of us liked it.
I use 2 reins and find that I can use the snaffle rein most of the time and just keep the curb rein as back up.
 
Yes just been increasingly frustrated with our situation as was unable to event last year due to weather and transport issues, now its this jumping!

As I said, he used to be fine. I've jumped up to 1m40 with him no issues. We did a lot of groundwork and pole work which calmed him down. His approach has always been fast and excitable but not like it is now. Always been confident on him riding into a fence as he is the most honest horse ever (loves his jumping so much I don't think it even crosses his mind despite his awful owner sometimes putting him in on a crappy stride to do anything but jump, can count his refusals on one hand). Always been in a gag and grackle and never had issues. It's only that with the move in late August which went pear shaped when the yard we moved to had several issues (long story) including the lack of a working arena (the surface was like schooling in mud) so moved again in December having jumped once and schooled twice in between that time. However also started a full time job early December which meant not much was done with the horses at all. Only now kicking my arse into gear by riding more and booking myself into lessons so I have no excuse not to ride. However I have had a few attempts at jumping him and its no fun. I become a nervous wreck as he is just way too excited to be jumping, and he feeds off my nervous energy in a vicious cycle leading to me just not wanting to jump him at all.

To be fair when I first got him his approach to a fence is not unlike what it is now, seem to have gone backwards instead of forwards.
 
Mine jumps in a dutch gag with two reins, I just use rubber on the snaffle & plain leather on the bottom ring. If you are worried about muddling them up in an emergency, practice dropping them both in canter for a few strides, then gathering them back up. Also agree re the instructor.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cMnMem4egk

There is a video for you. Excuse the quality and I don't know if it really helps from this angle... But thought I'd let you see anyway! Ignore my slow motion 'good boooooyyyy' as I am a very vocal rider. ;) But please no criticism on my riding, I'm only showing this to offer insight to what he does coming into a fence. It's hard to show how mental he feels at the moment, maybe I'm overthinking it and it's just time and getting back into a routine but I'm not sure I want to go through jumping sessions the way he's acting to get back to a place I'm confident!

This was also one of his less 'mental' approaches that day as I had made him trot and canter repeatedly in a 20m around and in front of that jump until he didn't think he was actually jumping it which seems to work slightly.
 
Personally I don't think he looks that bad. You look like you raise your hands coming in to the fence and I wonder if he feels panicky. One of mine is like that, I have to appreciate her canter will never be super steady and back on her hocks as she worries and fights coming in to the fence. She has always been used as a speed horse and is also 13, i have to work around it not against it. She wears a Mullen mouth rubber Dutch gag with roundings and a back strap. I think with a horse like this its very easy to allow the canter to not be quality enough because naturally, you don't want to put leg on an already hot horse, however then the horse will panic as it knows it doesn't have enough canter so it will dive at the fence, usually causing the rider to raise their hands and hold, which will make the horse raise it's head and fight.
From that video I wouldn't say you have a bitting issue and I wouldn't put anything stronger in.
Also its probably not my business but I think it's so dangerous for the horses legs and confidence to jump if the snows balling in their feet.
 
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after watching a couple more videos I think he needs to work on allowing you to get your leg on him in canter and staying round. An exercise we use ( it won't work on some hot horses as it makes them bounce) is we ask for canter and keep the legs on the horse, more squeezing than nudging and ask them to move away from the leg on a circle, lots of praise for small improvements (which it seems like you do) if they rush away from the leg we slow them (still keeping leg on) and ask again, if they rush agin they are brought back to halt and asked to rein back, praised then back in to canter and repeat. We teach the exercise in walk and trot so we know they understand leg is not always a forward aid. A good trainer (BS have a list of approved ones) I think would be able to help lots
 
Amaranta said:
The gag should always be ridden in two reins, if not then you are constantly using the curb action, which may be what is making him strong tbh.
Click to expand...

There is no curb on a dutch gag??!

OP what mouthpiece are you using? It may be this that doesn't suit rather than the gag action itself.

It may also be a schooling issue - that he needs to learn to pace himself into jumps a bit - some gridwork may be an idea...
 
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