Alternative to scoping for Gastic Ulcers ..

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opinionuk

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As usual I am faffing about my Horse! I have booked her into be scoped for gastric ulcers on Tuesday, she has all the usual signs in moderate degrees, I am fairly sure that she has them as when shes given rennies she is much better and seems more comfortable.

I am really unsure about getting her scoped and wondered what are the, if any alternatives.
She is quite aggressive around food and leaving her for 18 hours without food is going to freak her out and then having to travel her to the equine hospital will be more stress.

Can anybody recommend any supplements or treatments that they have used on horses that haven't been scoped but showed obvious signs of some sort of discomfort ...

Shes a stressy mare at the best of times so adding this additional stress to her will freak her out.
 
Can't you leave her at the vets the night before, then you won't have the stress of seeing her.
FWIW my horse is very greedy and he was fine about not eating, didn't get stressy at all, unlike me!
 
Thats a good idea! I hadnt thought about leaving her there. What concerns me is that when the vet came to see her she was pretty none commital as to whether she thought it was ulcers, all she said is 'you know your mare'! helpful!

What if I am putting her through all of this stress for nothing, so thought maybe I try her on a supplement and see if that helps, if it does help then its a pretty good indication she has ulcers.
The other thing I thought of doing is getting the vet to treat her for ulcers without there being firm confimation and go from there. The treatment has been approved by the insurance company so was wondering if to go down that route, if she doesn't have ulcers but has received the medication, it won't have done her any harm or stressed her out.

Is that madness ...
 
Hedwards has recently given Gastrogard without scoping with, as far as I recall, very good results, check through her recent posts or send a pm.

I also gave a short course to a horse that was showing an acute reaction following a very stressful time combined with long term NSAIDS and he responded immediately with improvements, we never scoped as there really was no time to wait and he just had a 2 week course which seemed to resolve some of the issues.
 
I opted not to have my lad scoped for ulcers, for a number of reasons: He had had a few stomach tubes in a few days for a colic episode, he had lost a lot of weight due to not eating due to the colic, so I couldn't face starving him again too, he is not insured, and the vets quoted me £250, which I decided was better spent on GG. For all of the above reasons, and that he had all of the symptoms of ulcers to a greater or lesser degree, I opted to take a gamble on a 4 week course of Gastroguard, and it was the best thing I ever did!

We are 18 days in, and he looks and feels amazing! He has put a lot of weight back on, his coat condition is much improved, and I rode him today for the first time since the last colic, and he was so much more responsive to my leg and not nappy at all! This is combined with careful feeding (D&H ERS pellets, Alfa-a molasses free, speedibeet, micronized linseed and yeasac all 4x a day), ad lib hay and 24hr turnout.

It was a potentially costly gamble, but for me and him, it seems to be working!
 
montysmum1 said:
I opted not to have my lad scoped for ulcers, for a number of reasons: He had had a few stomach tubes in a few days for a colic episode, he had lost a lot of weight due to not eating due to the colic, so I couldn't face starving him again too, he is not insured, and the vets quoted me £250, which I decided was better spent on GG. For all of the above reasons, and that he had all of the symptoms of ulcers to a greater or lesser degree, I opted to take a gamble on a 4 week course of Gastroguard, and it was the best thing I ever did!

We are 18 days in, and he looks and feels amazing! He has put a lot of weight back on, his coat condition is much improved, and I rode him today for the first time since the last colic, and he was so much more responsive to my leg and not nappy at all! This is combined with careful feeding (D&H ERS pellets, Alfa-a molasses free, speedibeet, micronized linseed and yeasac all 4x a day), ad lib hay and 24hr turnout.

It was a potentially costly gamble, but for me and him, it seems to be working!
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Isn't GG prescription only though?
 
opinionuk said:
Isn't GG prescription only though?
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Yes but it is the only treatment that actually cures them, your vet should be more than happy to prescribe, if you have the insurance company in agreement they will pay but some may only pay if it is proven by scoping.
 
Nosey question but how much roughly does gastro guard cost? I also think my horse may have ulcers but he has a few other things wrong with him too at the moment and I don't want him having the extra stressed of being starved and then scoped :( Also need the money to treat his other problems if possible.
 
Paint it Lucky said:
Nosey question but how much roughly does gastro guard cost? I also think my horse may have ulcers but he has a few other things wrong with him too at the moment and I don't want him having the extra stressed of being starved and then scoped :( Also need the money to treat his other problems is possible.
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£23.75 per syringe in the cheapest i've seen
 
You don't need to starve for 18 hours? You remove all food for 12 hours, and TBH it doesn't really stress them out particularly. You can also get them scoped at your yard, doesn't need to be at the vets - B&W up at Breadstone have a mobile scope and will do it wherever, and they cannot be a million miles from you given your vids at Leyland Court. I am in a minority on here, but I would not give GG without scoping first - a) it is expensive, and b) you need to know what you are dealing with to know whether or not you've treated it properly. My old horse had ulcers, but they required antibiotics to heal them not just GG so giving GG alone would not have cleared the symptoms up and therefore we could have blindly gone off looking for another issue when it was ulcers all along. Likewise, if it isn't ulcers, you are spending a small fortune on GG unnecessarily.
 
It's a syringe a day for cure, a quarter a day for prevention. Usual approach is a month on 1 per day, then rescope, if healed enough, drop to a quarter of a tube for as long as the insurance money lasts. Basically the longer you have them on GG for, the better chance you have of a cure and no relapse. For that first month, antepsin tablets and pepto bismol are also part of the medication - my horse was costing over £200/week of drugs! Plus you need to keep working them at the same level because rest will start the ulcers healing, but unless you cure them properly using drugs, you'll likely get a relapse when you up the work again. GG is the only thing worth using because it is a proton pump inhibitor, so it stops the stomach producing acid which allows the ulcers to heal. Advice is normally to give on an empty stomach 30 mins before feeding/work. I was giving it in the morning (as empty stomach), then riding, then feed/turn out.
 
SpottedCat said:
You don't need to starve for 18 hours? You remove all food for 12 hours, and TBH it doesn't really stress them out particularly. You can also get them scoped at your yard, doesn't need to be at the vets - B&W up at Breadstone have a mobile scope and will do it wherever, and they cannot be a million miles from you given your vids at Leyland Court. I am in a minority on here, but I would not give GG without scoping first - a) it is expensive, and b) you need to know what you are dealing with to know whether or not you've treated it properly. My old horse had ulcers, but they required antibiotics to heal them not just GG so giving GG alone would not have cleared the symptoms up and therefore we could have blindly gone off looking for another issue when it was ulcers all along. Likewise, if it isn't ulcers, you are spending a small fortune on GG unnecessarily.
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I was told by the vet that she can't have any food for 18 hours. The cost is covered by insurance and I think i'd rather try that approach first before taking her down the scoping route she really is a stresshead.

It says at the vets that they have a Radiography equipment (portable) not about scoping equipment.
 
Possible stupid question - leaving horses with no food = no saliva to coat the stomach lining = acid erosion of the stomach = ulcers. So surely leaving them 12 hours with no food to get scoped is only going to make them worse?

My horse has gastric ulcers, he was showing all the signs, and instead of paying a vet over £100 just to come out to tell me what I already knew I added charcoal to his feed and made sure he has CONSTANT adlib hay/grass plus his bucket feed with charcoal.... and a week later he had improved drastically!

I have since halved the amount of charcoal he is on and will keep it at that unless I need to top up again.

Will his ulcers go away themselves or does he NEED gastroguard to cure them? Will they always be there and I just have to manage them carefully? I can't stress enough how much better he is just on the charcoal and adlib fibre, so am reluctant to give him anything else!

Sorry for hijacking!
 
heebiejeebies said:
Possible stupid question - leaving horses with no food = no saliva to coat the stomach lining = acid erosion of the stomach = ulcers. So surely leaving them 12 hours with no food to get scoped is only going to make them worse?

My horse has gastric ulcers, he was showing all the signs, and instead of paying a vet over £100 just to come out to tell me what I already knew I added charcoal to his feed and made sure he has CONSTANT adlib hay/grass plus his bucket feed with charcoal.... and a week later he had improved drastically!

I have since halved the amount of charcoal he is on and will keep it at that unless I need to top up again.

Will his ulcers go away themselves or does he NEED gastroguard to cure them? Will they always be there and I just have to manage them carefully? I can't stress enough how much better he is just on the charcoal and adlib fibre, so am reluctant to give him anything else!

Sorry for hijacking!
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Where do you get charcoal from??
 
I'm with SpottedCat - I too wouldn't treat with GG without scoping. It works for some, but gives false negatives and could also give you a 'too early' positive.

I think scoping is far more stressful for the owners than the horse to be honest. It's 12 hours without food, not 18, and because we know it's 12 hours we spend the whole time fretting about how long it'll be. Horses live in the moment though, they don't know that. Some horses frequently go without food for 8 hours or so when out hunting for example, by the time you add up all the hours they're not really eating. My horse is incredibly food motivated, and the first time I had her scoped I was sure she'd have done something horrific to herself through the stress of not eating and she was good as gold and nowhere near as stressed as I thought. Same second time when I scoped to see if they'd gone.

The reason I would scope is that while some people do get a remarkable behaviour change quite quickly on GG, with my horse you really really would have decided that it wasn't ulcers, based on her lack of behaviour change on GG. We knew she did have ulcers because we'd scoped, so I had the confidence to carry on with the treatment. And at the end we knew they'd gone because we'd scoped, whereas some horses need more than a month, or need antibiotics too, and it's perfectly possible to see some improvement in behaviour and assume it's sorted, when in fact you're leaving some issues there to flare back up again.

I know it feels like it'd be amazingly stressful, but really it isn't anything like as bad as we imagine in my experience, and a bit of effort at either end of treatment can give you certainty about what you're doing in relation to the stomach, and if on rescope they're gone but some symptoms remain you know to investigate other issues.

Ulcers are sooooo varied in their signs and symptoms, and often secondary to other issues, and so in my view any certainty you can achieve about how to proceed and what issues you are or are not dealing with is worth pursuing. Especially when you're looking at treatment so expensive... Plus once you declare it to your insurance (which you'd have to) it would get excluded so you might as well give yourself as much certainty as you can.

Honestly try not to stress it. I was very worried about mine first time and she was absolutely fine.
 
opinionuk said:
I was told by the vet that she can't have any food for 18 hours. The cost is covered by insurance and I think i'd rather try that approach first before taking her down the scoping route she really is a stresshead.

It says at the vets that they have a Radiography equipment (portable) not about scoping equipment.
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I have had 2 horses scoped by one of the top ulcer vets in the country, one of which was done in the last month, and it is 12 hours, so I'd query that personally.

I don't understand why anyone would pay for GG that the horse doesn't necessarily need - it is so expensive and scoping is really only a couple of hundred quid, which is the same as a weeks ulcer treatment. If you treat with GG and it turns out not to be that, then you'd run down the amount of money you have to treat whatever the real issue is for no reason.

HJ - saliva isn't what protects the stomach from acid :)
 
I would always scope they get two kinds of ulcers one type needs treatment with antibotics as well as gastroguard without scoping you risk wasting the money on the gastroguard if they needed antibiotics and don't get them.
Just get on and starve the horse it is one night only and well worth it.
 
opinionuk said:
I was told by the vet that she can't have any food for 18 hours. The cost is covered by insurance and I think i'd rather try that approach first before taking her down the scoping route she really is a stresshead.
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Your vet's wrong about the 18 hours. (They don't sound overly hot on the ulcer thing tbh.) If you're feeling unconvinced by them, it might be worth going somewhere else. If you're near one of the B&W bases as mentioned above, Richard Hepburn is a gastric specialist and well worth using. He's scoped mine before and really knows his stuff. They were no more expensive than any other vet I got a quote from either.

I can completely understand you being worried - I really was first time, because my mare was a proper wall-climber at the best of times. As it happened, at the time the YO and I were joking that given how chilled out she was, perhaps starvation was the way forward! ;) She is far, far more chilled now, but it took a lot longer than a few weeks on GG to see a difference.

If the cost is covered by insurance then worth checking how that would affect any limit on diagnostics - if you have, say, a £1000 limit on diagnostics per claim and they choose to treat your GG trial as a diagnostic process, you might find yourself with no money to cover a scope if you need one later on...

It's all subjective and there's more than one way to skin a cat, so good luck whichever way you choose.
 
philamena said:
If you're near one of the B&W bases as mentioned above, Richard Hepburn is a gastric specialist and well worth using. He's scoped mine before and really knows his stuff. They were no more expensive than any other vet I got a quote from either.
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I saw too much of him with my old horse! We got to the point where he'd come out to scope my horse and I'd assist.
 
philamena said:
Your vet's wrong about the 18 hours. (They don't sound overly hot on the ulcer thing tbh.) If you're feeling unconvinced by them, it might be worth going somewhere else. If you're near one of the B&W bases as mentioned above, Richard Hepburn is a gastric specialist and well worth using. He's scoped mine before and really knows his stuff. They were no more expensive than any other vet I got a quote from either.

I can completely understand you being worried - I really was first time, because my mare was a proper wall-climber at the best of times. As it happened, at the time the YO and I were joking that given how chilled out she was, perhaps starvation was the way forward! ;) She is far, far more chilled now, but it took a lot longer than a few weeks on GG to see a difference.

If the cost is covered by insurance then worth checking how that would affect any limit on diagnostics - if you have, say, a £1000 limit on diagnostics per claim and they choose to treat your GG trial as a diagnostic process, you might find yourself with no money to cover a scope if you need one later on...

It's all subjective and there's more than one way to skin a cat, so good luck whichever way you choose.
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Hi, Did Richard come to your yard to scope yours?
 
My lad was treated with GastroGaurd. It worked out at aroung £35 per tube. He initialy went on one tube per day for four weeks and then they do a further two weeks weaning them off with lower doses. so for four weeks your up to £1000 already.

Very exspensive but seems the only thing on the market that works. luckily mine was all on insurance as he was on GG for more than 8 weeks
 
I'm with SpottedCat and Philamena on this one.

You need the scope to know what you are dealing with! I had my horse scoped with a mobile scope by Rossdales. I was told the main reason they encourage people to bring their horse's into the hospital for the scope is because people aren't very good at starving their horses and take pity, starve for too short an amount of time etc. My horse is also food motivated, but he was just fine for the 12hr starvation period. He was stabled on straw, so I did muzzle him for the last 6hrs, just in case he decided to start tucking into his bed!

Conversely to what happened to Philamena, I was convinced my lad had ulcers, but the scope showed that actually his gut health was excellent. Obviously this has saved me a lot of money in the long run, and also has meant that he has a diet suited to his poor doer tendencies, rather than having to cater for an ulcer diet. Again, has been a money saver. Frustrating not to have an answer for the symptoms, but also stopped me pursuing a pointless avenue!
 
opinionuk said:
Hi, Did Richard come to your yard to scope yours?
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He'll come out to you to scope, yes - he's done both for me, scoped at my yard or done it at the clinic. I opted for the clinic last time because that was quicker than waiting for him to come out. But if you don't want to go there, then he will come out and do it. It's really not a big deal either way - just remember that wherever you have it done they can't have feed for an hour after sedation either. For me, that means the journey home without a net then they are ok to go straight out, whereas if he does it at home they need to stay in for a bit then go out.
 
RachelFerd said:
I'm with SpottedCat and Philamena on this one.

You need the scope to know what you are dealing with! I had my horse scoped with a mobile scope by Rossdales. I was told the main reason they encourage people to bring their horse's into the hospital for the scope is because people aren't very good at starving their horses and take pity, starve for too short an amount of time etc. My horse is also food motivated, but he was just fine for the 12hr starvation period. He was stabled on straw, so I did muzzle him for the last 6hrs, just in case he decided to start tucking into his bed!

Conversely to what happened to Philamena, I was convinced my lad had ulcers, but the scope showed that actually his gut health was excellent. Obviously this has saved me a lot of money in the long run, and also has meant that he has a diet suited to his poor doer tendencies, rather than having to cater for an ulcer diet. Again, has been a money saver. Frustrating not to have an answer for the symptoms, but also stopped me pursuing a pointless avenue!
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LOL - as you know the old horse had ulcers, and I was convinced the new one did as she just won't put on weight, but nope, excellent gut health, no signs of ulcers. Which is frustrating as I just cannot get her to put weight on.....
 
SC - same situation with mine then! I also have windsucking and girthiness as symptoms - but these are just leftovers from racing, nothing clinically wrong with him at all!!
 
RachelFerd said:
SC - same situation with mine then! I also have windsucking and girthiness as symptoms - but these are just leftovers from racing, nothing clinically wrong with him at all!!
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Does not help that mine is fussy as you like! I am at my wits end with it, it's really hampering our progress now, and I feel so sorry for her. Still, on balance I am glad she doesn't have ulcers!
 
SpottedCat said:
He'll come out to you to scope, yes - he's done both for me, scoped at my yard or done it at the clinic. I opted for the clinic last time because that was quicker than waiting for him to come out. But if you don't want to go there, then he will come out and do it. It's really not a big deal either way - just remember that wherever you have it done they can't have feed for an hour after sedation either. For me, that means the journey home without a net then they are ok to go straight out, whereas if he does it at home they need to stay in for a bit then go out.
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I am intrigued by what you are saying about Richard, I have just read about him on the website, also the fact that its 12 hours instead of 18 as my vet quoted and he will come to me is ideal.
A problem I may have is that I have raised a claim with NFU to cover costs to have her scoped, as the appointment is on tues they have sent a claim form to Three Counties vets for the vet to confirm that my horse treatment is required, I intend to cancel the treatment on Tuesday and let NFU know that its on hold at the moment and I want to move vets see what they say ..
 
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