Alternatives to - or Rockley Farm at home - can it be done?

F

Fifty Bales of Hay

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 February 2006
Messages
567
Location
Staffordshire
Visit site
I have a horse who has had numerous issues, worked barefoot for many a year from being backed, then vet said he had pain in feet (after I thought he wasn't quite right), so put shoes on him. It masked it for a while and I thought he'd improved. Roll on 9 months time and I've got a lame horse on my hands, tripping on the right fore badly.

Numerous vets visits then ending up with bone scan and MRI on front feet. Conclusions were DDFT slight tear, pain in all 4 feet, pain around the sacroillac region and slight degenerative changes to the sacroilliac, scans on the hind suspensories showed worse on one hind than the other, and stiffness/lameness also on this side. Also his sacroilliac was worse with the arthritis on the lame side.

Treatments were - injection into right fore to settle down the inflammation, box rest, hand walking, restricted turnout and back into work. But he still showed lameness behind and still looked lame on a circle in front to me, but vet said that was because of hind lameness.

So then treated the hind suspensories, and sacroilliac - more box rest more hand walking restricted turnout and back into work. Not too bad for a week, but showed stiffness behind. Tried to work through it (hacking at walk) , but this created a slight lameness in front.

And this is where we are now. No shoes has been put back on him since they were removed in February for the xrays. I have kept him barefoot. I would love to be able to send him to Rockley Farm but have no time left on insurance claim (runs out in December 2013 and he'd not be able to go before that date as no spaces, I have spoken with Nic), and the costs are prohibitive for me if I have to pay the full amount plus transport to send him next year when there are spaces.

Are there any alternatives or can I achieve the same or what's done at Rockley here at home? I have the time, I have roads to walk on, I have a 100 metre gravelled drive that I can turn him out on, but I don't know where to start, how to do this without some help? I have emailed Nic on Tuesday after she'd suggested turnout on the gravel to me, to find out for how long, and how to increase time etc, and should I do it even if he's struggling with it (he has a bit of bruising in white line atm)? But I've not had a reply yet, and I feel just useless sat here not trying to help him when there might be something I could do?

Any suggestions or advice please? Anyone done this before? Am I just perhaps wasting my time - hoping he'll recover when theres' so much wrong?
 
Last edited:
Obviously I am not vet, and you obviously have to take advice from them.
Rockley work on horses mainly with leg issues.
It seems likely that the sacro iliac [ equivalent to our hip joint] is contributing to the leg issues, you are aware that problems in one area can cause problems in another area [this happens in humans and other animals].
Sorry I can't be more constructive, but if you want to try re hab like Rockley, he needs his diet to include minerals and vitamins [ Hoof Pro].
Can he be out as much as possible, on a variety of surfaces.
If you have a 100m drive for him, he can be out there as much as possible, with haynets and water, he won't walk about a lot if in pain. As long as he is not charging about.
 
Last edited:
MrsD123 said:
Obviously I am not vet, and you obviously have to take advice from them.
Rockley work on horses mainly with leg issues.
It seems likely that the sacro iliac [ equivalent to our hip joint] is contributing to the leg issues, you are aware that problems in one area can cause problems in another area [this happens in humans and other animals].
Sorry I can't be more constructive, but if you want to try re hab like Rockley, he needs his diet to include minerals and vitamins [ Hoof Pro].
Can he be out as much as possible, on a variety of surfaces.
If you have a 100m drive for him, he can be out there as much as possible, with haynets and water, he won't walk about a lot if in pain. As long as he is not charging about.
Click to expand...


Thank you MrsD - yes I am taking advice from the vet also and the only thing they have offered for the foot is another medication, which I'm not keen on having done. The vets would give me a referral to Rockley, we've already discussed it, but as now we're so far into our year for claiming, time is running out.

The trouble with the multiple issues is I don't know which is the initial injury and which is contributory or caused problems elsewhere. Neither the chiropractor nor the vets can actually tell me, so I think what we have tried is to "do what we can" and treat each area accordingly,but alas we still actually have signs of rear leg and front leg lameness, albeit marginal.

So I should put him out on the gravel drive (he will have access to a bit of grass out there too, plus I can give him haynets etc to keep him occupied) - even if he seems to struggle to walk, leave him out there? He's not likely to run around but I will be able to keep an eye on him. Perhaps I should just turn him out for 10 hours a day, then stabled? And whilst he's still struggling with this - should I hand walk him for 10-20 minutes every day also?
 
victoria1980x said:
AMP cptrayes is a good one to ask. Also have a look on http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php

just to add do you have your own place or are you on livery? just thinking about setting up a "paddock paradise" style track. PM oberon and ask if she can email you her 101 guide it's very good.
Click to expand...
thank you victoria - lets hope cptrayes sees this and replies for me? Do I have to be a member to go onto phoenix horse forum, as its asking me to log in when I follow the link.

I do have my own place but feel that a paddock paradise might take up too much room, and I don't have much land, so not sure I'd be able to do this, but I'd very much like to. I will PM oberon, and very intrigued with the 101 guide!!!!
 
AMP said:
thank you victoria - lets hope cptrayes sees this and replies for me? Do I have to be a member to go onto phoenix horse forum, as its asking me to log in when I follow the link.

I do have my own place but feel that a paddock paradise might take up too much room, and I don't have much land, so not sure I'd be able to do this, but I'd very much like to. I will PM oberon, and very intrigued with the 101 guide!!!!
Click to expand...

I had my first track on an L shape of 80m x 60m. It worked just great :-) They don't have to be large to be effective, they do have to be well thought out. Do you have another horse to turn out with?
 
Thats interesting Lucy - are you able to PM me please, or send me a diagram or something to show me what you are meaning, sorry this is all a bit new to me. Would it have to be another barefoot horse, or would one with front shoes on only be OK to turn out on the track too? Do you need to feed more hay than grazing if using a track system?
 
AMP said:
So I should put him out on the gravel drive (he will have access to a bit of grass out there too, plus I can give him haynets etc to keep him occupied) - even if he seems to struggle to walk, leave him out there? He's not likely to run around but I will be able to keep an eye on him. Perhaps I should just turn him out for 10 hours a day, then stabled? And whilst he's still struggling with this - should I hand walk him for 10-20 minutes every day also?
Click to expand...


hoofwise if he struggles to walk he will stop walking. He won't have the attitude that if he does a bit today his feet will be tougher to do a bit more tomorrow as a human might.

Presuming he can be encouraged to move with his other problems then he needs to be able to walk comfortably for him to do it willingly and therefore to be self motivated to walk more. So he shouldn't be allowed to struggle. Not sure what gravel is (as there are so many different sorts) but if it is a harsh surface he may well struggle. Ultimately as he progresses the gravel drive sounds great.

I also wouldn't walk in hand over anything he is unhappy with. Walking in hand is great but if the surface is harsh then padded boots may be the first stage. For a barefoot horse everything is designed for maximum movement but with no pain to the horse.

A track for say 2 15 hand average size horses is around 12 foot wide. Narrower makes them move faster, wider and they slow down. Any downhill corners need to be widened so that no one ends up in a heap at the bottom as they cannot negotiate the corner.
So, even a very small field or paddock will have a much greater walking area with a track around the edge rather than horses just turned out. Horses put on tracks move a lot more, even 1 horse on it's own. A pair move a lot more still.
A track can be created by simply using the field or yard wall and then an electric fence 12 foot away.
Biggest problem at the moment is mud from horses charging around grass tracks.
The grass on a track will soon be eaten or trodden in ATM so you would have to feed hay, or bring them in and give hay. Ideally you spread hay sparsely around the track so they are always moving to find it. Obviously you then have to take into account the practicalities of the UK wet winter so haynets around the track or something like that would be more appropriate. Alternatively a track that runs through a barn/yard. On one of mine they go round the track and then down a spur of track into a barn. I put hay in the barn so they know to keep coming to look for the hay. Having eaten they go back out again.
A track can wind around anywhere. Think of a go cart track. You can make a very long winding track in a small area.
The only difficulty of a shod horse on a track is whether the shoes dig the ground up more than barefeet.
Hope some of this helps.
 
We had a grass track with an area of pea gravel (not cheap and not lasted that well though!) which could be used for comfort if required (he did spend all day on it once- too much running round on hard ground the night before. We put ours round the edge of a 3 acre paddock. We then used to move the fence in every so often to allow more grass or spread hay- It would not have survived last winter though (they had more of the field then) but we are on wet clay. It certainly kept them (one is shod) walking more - and was great for when Frank couldn't do much actual walk work on the roads but him moving was better for his feet and his waistline.

nap time ;)

946371_10152858538590438_1599219669_n.jpg


gravel

522904_10151534413525438_1926973463_n.jpg


179595_10151762033585438_386965529_n.jpg
 
You don't say how old he is and there doesn't seem to be a firm diagnosis of the problems.
Just a gut feeling - turn him out for a few months and let him walk around and see what happens. Still have his feet done and pay attention to t he diet.

If you want to walk him out why not put boots on so you know his feet are comfortable and then if he is still lame the problem is somewhere else and not his feet. You can get the velcro fastening boots now that are supposed to be really good for newly barefoot horses.
 
ester said:
We had a grass track with an area of pea gravel (not cheap and not lasted that well though!) which could be used for comfort if required (he did spend all day on it once- too much running round on hard ground the night before.


gravel

522904_10151534413525438_1926973463_n.jpg
Click to expand...
Do you think it was having grass (mud lol) round the gravel that trashed it quickly? My pea gravel area is in a corner of the gravel yard and after nearly five years the yard is now in desperate need of sorting but the pea gravel area is still good?
 
I'm sorry, I didn't want to be the one to say this, but I wonder whether the idea of rehabbing this horse may be totally unrealistic, and unfair on the horse.

I only say "may" because I don't know the details, nor have the expertise to comment fully. But I'm just trying to highlight what you have said is wrong with him:

- pain in all 4 feet- shoes made him comfy for 9 months, then lame again. Still has pain in all 4 feet.
- tripping on the right fore badly.
- DDFT slight tear
- pain around the sacroillac region and slight degenerative (arthritic) changes to the sacroilliac
- hind suspensories showed worse on one hind than the other
- stiffness/lameness also on this side

Injecting RF and box resting - still lame
Still showed lameness behind.
Treated the hind suspensories, and sacroilliac (what with?) - still showed stiffness behind
Hacking at walk created a slight lameness in front.

So, did shoeing really help? Maybe the shoes raised him off the ground enough to not feel any pain through (possibly?) thin soles? Shoes certainly made my Cushing's mare more comfy, despite having increasingly dropped soles. So might shoes help your horse be more comfy in this respect again? Easy and cheap enough to try again, but also making sure that you use a farrier who is good at keeping the feet trimmed well with no flare building up (thinking of you saying horse was tripping - can be because of long feet, but equally could be due to other causes including tendon damage)

I have no idea what the prognosis is for a DDFT tear. I'd be either asking the referral vet, and/or I'd buy a copy of the Ross Dyson lameness book and read sections on DDFT very thoroughly. It's an excellent veterinary book, and tends to give a realistic opinion on the success of different treatments based on numerous cases. I have no experience of DDFT injury, but I would have thought that movement wouldn't help it - but you need to know that for sure before you decide whether encouraging your horse to move is a good or a bad move.

Sacroliliac - isn't that one of the most difficult areas to make any progress with? Again, I'd check what he was treated with, and speak to the referral vet and/or read thoroughly the Ross Dyson book for that condition, so you know absolutely what the options and prognosis are.

Hind suspensories - these are notoriously difficult to help. Again, you need to know the extent and significance of the damage to both of them. Referral vet and/or Ross Dyson book. What is the prognosis for your horse. I've had a mare put down before now because the outlook was so bleak for her with severe damage to both hind suspensories, believed to be degenerative, and at only 5 years old. There was no hope in that case. It was the right thing to do so she didn't suffer. I don't know with your horse. Check the details of your horse. What were the suspensories treated with - are there other options, and what's the chance of them working. My mare with suspensory damage was uncomfy standing, let alone walking, so setting up a track system for her and encouraging her to move would have been cruel.

"Hacking at walk created a slight lameness in front" - so can you really think that this horse will be comfy being encouraged to move out more when he's grazing?

I don't have the answers, but there are enough big questions that surface regarding whether movement would be helpful or not, that you really do need expert advice.

Whenever there's anything serious going on, I always try to look objectively at whether there's light at the end of the tunnel, a reason to realistically believe that things CAN improve, CAN be better, with enough probability that it may make a certain amount of painful times bearable because there's the hope of better to come. I'm just not sure that there really is any light for your horse on the basis of what you've said........... but you really DO need expert veterinary opinions on each aspect of his problems to make an informed decision. If your vet, or the referral vet, doesn't explain things in a way you can understand, then DO get that book. It's very technical, but it says things very clearly, and removes the difficulty of communicating the prognosis to a caring owner.

There are far worse things than putting a horse down because the future holds know chance of a pain-free life.

Whatever you decide, do make sure you know what the chances are of your horse's ailments improving enough for him to be a non-working pet (will he ever be comfy in the field and/or the stable; will he need pain mediation for the rest of his life) or whether he has any chance of resuming work (of any level; even just being able to maintain soundness and comfort at a walk on a short hack).

Hope you find a good way forward.

Sarah
 
Last edited:
amandap said:
Do you think it was having grass (mud lol) round the gravel that trashed it quickly? My pea gravel area is in a corner of the gravel yard and after nearly five years the yard is now in desperate need of sorting but the pea gravel area is still good?
Click to expand...

That and a certain somebody insisting on digging it up and rolling in it :p. It is still there just doesn't look quite so neat and tidy- partly because he also enjoyed pulling the membrane up with his teeth! We needed to do something with that gateway anyway (the bit in the gateway is stoned) so it seemed like a good idea at the time and it did its job.
 
Thank you all for your kind replies.

So I have a horse who is happy to walk in his stable, and happy out in the field on mud. But isn't totally happy on the concrete yard,and even worse up the gravel drive. Once up the gravel drive he is happier to walk on the tarmac by comparison.

Leaving him where he's happy I'd best just leave him in the field then? As I can't get out to the tarmac unless I go up the gravel drive and this makes him unhappy. Therefore I'm left with a horse I'm really not able to rehabilitate as I cannot move him to surfaces he's happy with?

flintfootfilly - perhaps therefore you are right in your thoughts, and not something I've not thought myself, but just so so wanted to help him and not just pts then feel guilty I'd not tried my best. Feel so sad when I think like this but I do understand what you are saying - where are you from Sarah, I would love you to come and meet him/me?
 
some have rehabbed from home with sorer feet than that though - I know pines of rome's boy was turned out in boots and pads for some time... boots and pads can also stimulate the feet differently to mud.

I'm not sure about whether it will resolve all of his problems and I do think FFF's post is important to consider. However, I decided that the alternative for my lad would be retiring, and if he was retiring he would be having shoes off so I might as well at least try rehabbing him properly without shoes while I did that.
 
thank you ester - he's been out in boots most of the summer, so was looking to find a way forward from this really? He is no different walking over the gravel whether with or without boots on - does this mean its not his feet that are the problem, or that he's not really suitable as a rehabilitation project?
 
Yes,
I think you need to stand back a bit, make him comfortable as possible, and then see if this situation is acceptable to you and to him in the long term. Yes vets will give advice, but ultimately you are the owner and the decision maker.
When you bought a horse, you had certain expectations, at the moment they are not being met.
If the horse is in pain, then it is your responsibility to medicate to reduce this to an acceptable level.
 
Last edited:
AMP said:
Thats interesting Lucy - are you able to PM me please, or send me a diagram or something to show me what you are meaning, sorry this is all a bit new to me. Would it have to be another barefoot horse, or would one with front shoes on only be OK to turn out on the track too? Do you need to feed more hay than grazing if using a track system?
Click to expand...
If you scroll to the bottom of the page of this blog, the picure titled 'Nursery Circuit' shows the 80m x 60m layout.
http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.co.uk/

I turned out two barefooters together one was a rehab from what the vet thought was a non recoverable sacroilliac injury. Having had the usual usual at vast expense with a deteriorating result we had little to lose. Horse was sound within weeks.

I suspect sole problems may be root cause or at least exacerbating other problems. I see this all the time. I have read thread and so far no one has mentioned diet or metabolic illness but I might have missed something. If your horse is sore over surfaces you must check these out, and thrush too. I find thrush where owners have been persauded none existed and yet there it is and thrush makes horses very sore. Do you know how to check how thick your horse's soles are? If they are thin, or thin and flat you may well have a dietary and/or metabolic issue.
 
Lucy - I will take a look at the blog and the layout, in principal my husband has agreed I can do this, but he thought it might cost £10K to do, I said NO it won't cost that much - but really I have no idea on costings.

No I don't know how to check how thick soles are, could you tell me please? He did have thrush but I managed to clear this over the summer. I don't think there are any metabolic issues going on and he has a no sugar, high fibre diet with added vitamins and minerals plus hay/grass. How would I be sure on there being no metabolic issues?

Lucy when you say you turned out two barefooters together, and horse was sound within weeks - was he/she too having problems with different surfaces, or unsound on mud too?

I just need to know whether I am right or wrong in turning him out on a surface which he is finding troublesome - and what therefore is my way forward?
 
AMP said:
No I don't know how to check how thick soles are, could you tell me please? He did have thrush but I managed to clear this over the summer. I don't think there are any metabolic issues going on and he has a no sugar, high fibre diet with added vitamins and minerals plus hay/grass. How would I be sure on there being no metabolic issues?

Lucy when you say you turned out two barefooters together, and horse was sound within weeks - was he/she too having problems with different surfaces, or unsound on mud too?

I just need to know whether I am right or wrong in turning him out on a surface which he is finding troublesome - and what therefore is my way forward?
Click to expand...
To check the thickness of the soles lift the foot and press very hard, they should not flex.
You have to throw everything at the horse.
Hoof Pro at the full rate [ebay]
100gms micronised linseed
No molasses no moglo
Hi fibre diet [non mollassed beet]
Non molassed chaff
Good hay or haylage.
As to what is needed to make him comfortable, if stabled make sure the bed is soft.
Even if he is out on a gravel track, there are degrees of comfort, large sharp gravel is never going to help, be sensible.
If out, keep him out as long as he is warm and not miserable, but pamper him if it is raining, no point in standing for hours in pouring rain and driving snow.
As stated before he needs enough Danilin to make him comfortable, if you don't know what to do, is there another vet in the practice who will advise?
 
Last edited:
MrsD123 said:
To check the thickness of the soles lift the foot and press very hard, they should not flex.
You have to throw everything at the horse.
Hoof Pro at the full rate [ebay]
100gms micronised linseed
No molasses no moglo
Hi fibre diet [non mollassed beet]
Non molassed chaff
Good hay or haylage.
As to what is needed to make him comfortable, if stabled make sure the bed is soft.
Even if he is out on a gravel track, there are degrees of comfort, large sharp gravel is never going to help, be sensible.
If out, keep him out as long as he is warm and not miserable, but pamper him if it is raining, no point in standing for hours in pouring rain and driving snow.
As stated before he needs enough Danilin to make him comfortable, if you don't know what to do, is there another vet in the practice who will advise?
Click to expand...

OP just to add, my rehab horse goes incredibly footy on non molassed sugar beet even though testing neg for Cushing's etc.
 
OK thanks MrsD - I will check his soles tomorrow and report back.
And going to order the Hoof Pro from ebay in the morning . I have some micronised linseed so can start adding that to his diet, and he's already on a high fibre diet without molasses. The hay is good and I soak it for him.
The gravel is more rounded not sharp pointed stones, they roll under your feet when you tread on them. Not quite as good as pea gravel or as small, but its available and already there - I could put some pea gravel on top of this surface if needed, I will see how it goes.
 
I'm up in North Yorkshire, so nowhere near enough to meet up unfortunately, but thanks for suggesting it. I rarely leave my own county these days!

But there's something you said earlier today that got me thinking. You said he wasn't comfortable walking over the gravel even in his boots. I'm surprised about that, not least because even when one of my mares had acute laminitis and was staggering along on most surfaces, with her boots/pads on she moved incredibly well (considering).

What sort of boots are you using, and are you using comfort pads in them? Sometimes pads can make a huge difference, and if there's space for thicker pads or a double layer of them, maybe that might help over just the short distance of the drive?

The other thought was do you have access to a really good trimmer or farrier who will help guide you as to whether the feet can be improved signficantly? Worth having a second opinion from someone you don't normally use, just go get a different perspective. That might give more idea of whether you can achieve much by walking him out, within whatever limits his other problems impose.

Sarah
 
Bit far then Sarah! Thats a shame. The hoof boots I am using are Old Mac G2's with the medium level comfort pads in them. I just remembered when we tested him with and without boots over the gravel - it was ridden. So I will put them on tomorrow before taking him out on the gravel to see if he's any better than he was today, to compare again, as obviously unridden would make a difference.

That all looks a bit complicated to me amanda - how they measure the sole on there. Just had a thought - I have xrays and that should tell me about his sole thickness if I look at them shouldn't it? Vet never said anything about thin soles to me at the time, but I need to look up the xrays again.

Anyone recommend a good experience hoof care professional that's around the Bucks/Oxon area that would come out and give me advice/help with his feet please?
 
Sole thickness. If the soles flex under pressure they are very thin. PR method is good, but yes not the best explained. When you know how it's quite easy. Put up a photo of a clean sole - close up but including the whole sole and if I can help I will. There are some good barefooters you can share knowledge with in your area - I trim them :-)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top