Alternatives to the dreaded Dutch Gag?

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Hello from an infrequent poster but constant lurker! *waves*

I would really appreciate some bitting advice for my sj-er and you lot all seem to have very sane advice! Bit of background first; bought new chap end of June, came to me in a waterford gag and was really over bent and wouldnt take a contact (draw reins??). Have worked hard to get him to accept more of a contact and he works nicely on the flat in a Waterford NS Universal.

Problem comes with jumping and hacking. He hadnt hacked much/at all when i got him and the more we have done the stronger he has got leaning on me. When jumping he has a huge stride and is quick into fences and is very strong afterwards. He throws his head very high and i find it very hard to see a stride so it gets very messy! He can be spooky so I have to keep leg on. Because he throws his head up and fights me he will often invert over the fence so its uncomfortable for him and me and its going to get problematic with bigger tracks. Is he fighting the gag effect? he is the same in the dutch gag and the universal.

Oh and should have said he is 16.2hh WB 7 years old. Had all BN DC's up until June and I have been tackling BN/Discos but have only been to a few shows thorugh OCT/Nov before the snow stopped play.

suggestions and questions welcome - blimey that turned out to be long! sorry! poor chap Ive made him sound a nightmare!
 
A short shank myler is a good idea,

He could be throwing his head up due to the waterford mouthpiece as they are quite strong so:
What about a cheltenham gag with normal jointed mouth? with two reins - one on snaffle and one on leather.
Or a pelham? as a gag lifts in the mouth it could be that which is making him throw his head, so if you need brakes, try something with no gag action.
I'm not saying a pelham is the answer as I don't really like them, but my mind is blank with another suggestion!

I also used to ride my SJ-er out hacking with a snaffle and saved the strong bit for when they lock onto a fence, not sure if you can do that.
 
Thanks ArcticFox - my friend has a pelham and a running gag but I have never ridden with 2 reins so not sure that will suit me esp jumping - would be terrified of losing my knitting. Will see if i can find a myler to hire from a bit bank. Thanks for your reply x
 
I wouldn't go for a dutch gag as they pick the head up, which is your problem to start with.

I don't know much about fancy new bits (I'm a luddite when it comes to these things!) but a pelham could be a good option, could you wear it with roundings? :)
 
yep can def try with roundings - worth a shot! thats what i thought was happening and why i was keen to get away from the gag....
 
Dont personally like dutch gags, and your boy seems to react just like mine did when I used one on him. He leaned on me and becamee overbent, and evaded the contact big time (I have never used draw reins), and he became what I can only describe as 'nothing in front' which is horrible. I tried a kimblewick but he hated it. When I need my brakes now I use mullen mouth pelham. If I feel I will lose my knitting I use D rings, roundings, whatever you call them. He is easy to stop, he does not go overbent and he is lovely and light. To be fair, I dont use a pelham on a daily basis - he goes nicely in an loose ring KK snaffle for schooling and hacking, but when we go hunting or for a hooley, its a pelham every time.
 
TheoryX1 you have hit the nail on the head - there was nothing in front when i first got him but as he has 'uncurled' he has got so strong! I think the resounding advice on here is to try a pelham so will start there and see how it goes and try to use something gentler to school in when he is soft. Thanks all for your help! x
 
I had it on my TB about 15 yrs ago. You dont see many ppl use them now, i guess due to many alternatives.
My boy was very strong and fort me everywhere, the dutch gag worked better for him - but the kimblewick gave me more control. It was a straightbar and i used a pad behind the curb as he found this too much.
The pelham was too much in his very small mouth.
 
Those who recommended the pelham - what mouthpiece would you advise given he is used to a waterford? Thinner happy mouth type, thicker rubber type, jointed, tongue saver????

Thanks BB's - thats interesting to know. His mouth isnt too small but he is WB so prob quite big tongued?
 
the mylers are a good system, but there is a myriad of combinations of diff mouthpieces (from v mild 32 and 02 to pretty major with ports etc) so it might be worth contacting one of the myler bitting people and seeing what they suggest, i've heard very good things of this service.
TarrSteps on here has a myler (i'm not sure which mouthpiece or rings) that she really rates for this sort of horse iirc, she might see this thread hopefully.
otherwise, umm... if it's a mouth thing, legacy of uncurling from draw rein restriction and getting intoxicated, i'm going to think outside the box and say try a hackamore, with a neckstrap for emergency braking (good for strangling horse to slow it down!)
seriously though, hackamores can work spectacularly or not at all, depends on horse's preference.
have you tried going totally the other way, instead of strong and curb bits, trying an innocuous snaffle and seeing whether he stops fighting/pulling when he has very little to pull against? works for some horses.
otherwise, i'd be tempted to try a rubber pelham, a lot of horses go very nicely in them.
 
Hi Kerilli - yes I am have always been overwhelmed by the miriad of myler mouthpieces - I did try one that we happened to have on the yard - full cheeks with a little barrel in the middle but he was very hard mouthed in it and that was just on the flat. Interested by your theory of intoxication and the idea of the hackamore and yet again because I have one in my tack room it had crossed my mind to try it! Think I just need some time for trial and error!
 
Hi, I have a very strong part Holstein bought from Ireland, who had never been schooled & had no mouth, but immense talent........he did something very similar into his fences, he just knew no better, & panicked a bit.

We started with a NS universal(demi-anky) to give him tongue room, with a curb strap, This still works well for XC, but was not enough for the SJ. (You do need the curb strap quite tight, as when you use the reins, the bit collapses a little, & the curb strap slackens off becoming ineffective if too loose!).

Then tried a myler combination short lever for the SJ. The mild 02 mouthpiece produced a significant improvement, but to fine tune a little more, I now use a ported mouthpiece to provide the tongue room he seems to like.

I should add, we spent many months jumping single fences out of a very slow trot, until he began to realise that he didn't need to use speed, or get excited or panicked. It is still a work in progress, but he went from intro to novice last season ending up going clear & being soft in the SJ, having never seen a XC fence a year before. I think the XC control still needs a little work!
 
Try a mullen mouthpiece with a kimblewick as that's one rein. You can also get a leather curbstrap which aren't as harsh as the chain. Maybe a rubber mouthpiece if he has room.

I rate the mylers, I use a low port comfort snaffle but mine really isn't strong. But you need to educate him to get his head down and learn that he has brakes. Do you have a running martingale?
 
As said, if your horse has a tendency to throw his head up/back off the bit then a gag is not the bit for him as that does help lift a horse's head up (mine is in a dutch gag and seems to be the bit he is happiest in and I have better control in as he tends to lean heavily down on his forehand if he wants away!). Pelhams are no good for him as he leans and I found in the past that they def do not suit horses who like to get their heads down and tank off!

As far as mouthpieces are concerned you have to take the individual horse's mouth into consideration - does he have a thick tongue, small mouth etc etc. Seek some advice from someone who knows about bits or even your EDT who should be able to advise what size of bit suits your horse's mouth. Some do not like the nutcracker action of a bit and others do not go well in straight bars. Some pelhams have ports in the middle which I believe help to give the tongue room (or something - last time i had one of those was with the pony i got when i was 12! Never seen a bit like it since!).

See if you can borrow various bits and see what he goes best in. Funnily my strong pony was controllable in the pelham with the huge port but with a standard kimblewick he b*ggered off! I always thoygh the bits were pretty similar - evidently not!
 
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